https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=4t9q79wYWAU
So hello everybody, I’m here with JP Marceau. Some of you might have seen him on my channel. You might have seen discussions between him and John Ravecki. He also has a YouTube channel where he talks about the relationship between symbolism and emergence and panpsychism, all these really fascinating things. One of the greatest things that’s been going on in the past few months for those who haven’t been following is that we started a Symbolic World blog. JP is the main editor, the chief editor of the blog. He’s managing all the writers and deciding which articles are going online and everything. So I’ve been really happy to partner with him. I’ve been very excited about the quality of the articles that have been coming up. In this discussion, we’re going to look at his ideas related to the symbolic thinking and also the two articles that he put up on the Symbolic World blog. This is Jonathan Pageot. Welcome to the Symbolic World. So, JP, to start, maybe you can tell people how your experience has been. We started, I think we launched about a month ago or maybe a bit more. We’ve been working on the Symbolic World blog for a while now. We’ve been working on the Symbolic World blog for a while now. So, how your experience has been? We’ve started, I think we launched about a month ago or maybe a bit more. What has been your experience in terms of managing the blog and seeing these articles pop up from our different collaborators? It’s been great to be able to have a correspondence, have a back and forth with different symbolic thinkers. So, of course, initially it was like setting people up, sending emails, gathering people. Once the workflow got started, it’s been fun. I’ve learned a lot already. Some people, as you said, have been writing excellent articles. And it’s worth mentioning that you got those people initially from the Facebook group titled, I think it’s the Symbolic World within the Zombie Invasion. That’s right. That’s right. That’s run by Jacob Russell. Yeah. And it’s been a good community to be a part of. It’s been cool to see the quality of the posts that have been coming up and like the improvements in the level of symbolic thinking that I’ve seen around. It’s crazy if I think of, let’s say, three years ago, four years ago, when you started making videos, Jonathan, and people were sort of interested in you, but they didn’t know what you were really talking about. And now not only are people understanding, but they can even contribute themselves. So, if I look at it at the long term, I find it all very exciting and then great. Yeah. That’s really strange because that’s been one of the most exciting things for me is to really watch this kind of crew come up, you know, very fascinating, obviously good intuition and a good capacity to kind of take people through the steps, you know, of their symbolic thinking, applying it to all kinds of things that I wouldn’t have thought of. And also pulling in strains in terms of analogies from different traditions that I don’t really know that well. People obviously have their own baggage and their own knowledge, their own line from which they pull their ideas. And that’s why I was really happy to see the first article you put up. I put up the very, very first article kind of introducing people. Then your article came up strong right away because I’m not really a formal philosophical thinker. I’m more intuitive, more analogical. I use images and stories. So I’m more, let’s say, taking it from the artistic perspective, whereas you were really able to write an article which traced the line between the symbolic thinking that we’re trying to develop, you know, the platonic thinking, Aristotelian thinking all the way to Thomas Aquinas and then connecting it also with new ideas of emergence. So maybe you can give us a little bit of an idea of your article so that we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah, I can credit part of the thinking in this article to the several conversations I’ve had with John Vervecky because it’s really in the course of those discussions that became obvious when talking to him and also by reading the comments and interacting with other people who had watched the videos that you can start with a like the bleeding edge of scientific thinking. You can start with cognitive science that is trying to gather the different ontological levels within science and get from there fairly smoothly to symbolic thinking, to the sort of worldview that you found in the Neoplatonist, for example. So I can try to lay it out fairly quickly. What has been happening is for a while, like during the Renaissance, progressively people tried to reduce everything down to the material level because people were able to calculate things and it was yielding more and more progress over time. So people got progressively more materialistic. But it’s been sort of blowing up in the last few decades on a few in a few different sciences, actually. And the sort of I don’t want to take like a very long time and spell out the different places where it broke down exactly and what are the precise solutions that people give to the different levels. But the bottom line is that something that integrates all of those new facts within science is the basic neoplatonic idea that the world is made of potential and patterns. So you can see it at every level within the scientific ontology. You can start just right away from the bottom. At the bottom of physics, what looks like is there people quibble about the details. And there is lots of disagreements between physicists trying to interpret what this could all mean. But a common interpretation and one that will work well when applied to other levels of being as well is to see the ground layer of physics as just potential fields of potential from which different particles can emerge. So you have the idea of you can have particles that emerge from potential. And then once those particles are there, they will emerge also the potential that’s below them. They will influence what other particles can emerge. They will influence the interactions between those different particles. And then if you take a set of particles, you can also see how their potential for higher level atoms or molecules. So, of course, a molecule, for instance, is made of several atoms and particles. And in one sense, you can see the molecule as emerging from those. But you can also see that the molecule isn’t forming the potential that is below it. It’s out of all of the things that could happen with those different particles, there is something very precise that actually occurs. What actually occurs is the pattern of this molecule. And then you can keep going up the levels of being in a cell, for instance. You have tons of enzymes. You have different molecules that could be doing several different things all over the place. They could go. The cell could eat the other cell. It could fragment. It could do a bunch of stuff. But from all of this potential, all of the different stuff that exists at the level of the molecules within the cell, what actually happens is the emergence of a global pattern of the pattern of the cell, which will then in turn inform what happens with those different molecules. And then we could go higher up to the human level, where we see this within our own being. And this has been coming up, especially in cognitive science, as people try to study the mind, how it is that our cognition works. Take all of the possibilities that I have within my body, within my members. Even if I just take one of my members, if I just take my eyes, and the way I look at the screen and I see you, Jonathan, right now, I could be focusing on a myriad of different things. But I will actually gather only a few most significant points in there, like your eyes, like maybe your eyebrows, a bit of your mouth, and so on. And I will gather from all of this potential, from all this potential that at the level of my, let’s see, the photons hitting my eyeballs, there’s tons of potential information I could focus on right there. I will constrain that potential into a simpler pattern of just eyes and eyebrows and face and so on. So I take very complex information, very complex potential. I condense it into a higher level pattern. And in turn, then that higher level pattern will influence what I will do also in the future with the potential that is in my body. So out of all the things that I could say with my mouth, out of all the complex interactions that could go on with my cells in my mouth or in my lungs and so on, I will say these very precise words. So you have, we started from the very bottom layer of physics of just fields of potential. We got our way to saying that from those fundamental fields, there emerge particles, and then those particles become matter. And then later they become potential for the atoms, the atoms become potential for cells, for humans, and we can keep going higher up as well. We can take the example of a, one I really like is the church, for instance. Or even before we go to the church, we can go to a family. Let’s say in a tradition, I can just try and take your family, like Jonathan is the head of his family. And you can see this in the way that he will gather from all the potential things that his family could do, so that the different members could be doing the family. Someone could be reading over there, someone could be carving over there. Sometimes Jonathan will act in a way that will gather all of these potential interactions from the family, and you will have them do a precise thing, let’s say maybe eat or maybe go to church and so on. And then you can really gather this potential into one pattern of the family, the actions the family does at the higher pattern, let’s say going to church or eating at a certain amount of the day and so on. So you have an emergence from different individuals, the emergence of a pattern, the pattern of a family that goes through you, Jonathan, and then that flows back down into the precise things that you do. So you can see it as emergence from the potentialities in your family of a pattern, a more abstract, a higher level phenomena. And then this one from this will emanate also constraints on those individuals. And you can see the same thing about going on in a church where the priest does the same things that you do in your family of gathering all the people. And then if you go even higher up, you can see Christ doing this also with the whole of creation really is the highest level story that will contain and gather all of the other stories. So we all have different stories in our different parishes. There’s all sorts of stuff going on. But out of all of this potential, Christ gathered it all into one abstract pattern. And then this pattern has also been unfolding throughout history in us. So you want to say something? No, I was just going to say that what would definitely is fascinating is how similar and if you use terms like emergence and you talk about potentiality in the way that you did, you know, I think that most physicalists will understand what you’re talking about, at least physicalists that have been attempted to the problem of emergence. But, you know, for anybody who is knows a little bit of classical thinking, you right away recognize that a notion in Aristotle, for example, of matter, you know, and, and then, because when he was talking about matter, he wasn’t talking about matter the way we talk about it, but he was talking about matter at every level, ontological level. The different potentialities. Right. So potentiality at any level on the on the hierarchy of being is, is matter for the name or the identity that is above which is which is forming it. Yeah, and we, people are starting to take those higher level patterns more and more seriously. And I said for a while, people were just trying to reduce everything down to the bare minimum layer just try to reduce everything down to matter. But it, it caused a bunch of problems like you couldn’t really take even just biology seriously, biology is supposed to be science and we can actually do real things with it. But if it was somehow reduced to matter, it was causing problems in philosophy of science, because we always use theological, theological words when talking about biology, and you need real potential for even just evolution to make sense like there has to be real potential for genetic variation. Otherwise, biology becomes sort of a chimera became just an illusion. And it also blows up at the human level because we do see patterns in our minds at least like it’s it’s really people still try some people still try to reduce the mind to something like matter and try to say or see that the mind doesn’t exist. But it’s it’s a minority position by now, most people will do something that they call non reductive physicalism, or weak emergence, where it’s got exactly what I mentioned, where there is potential in our body in our bodies. And somehow all this potential is gathered in a special member in our head. And there are higher level patterns there, which you can find if you were to just look at our individual cells, like the fact that Jonathan gets up in the morning and typically goes carving. It’s not a pattern that you’ll find individual cells in your body. It’s a pattern that exists at the emergence level of the organization between all of yourselves. And in that emerging pattern, somehow, there is consciousness with perceptions with with choices with emotions and so on. And without even having to spell out the precise relation between mind and body, people will largely agree that okay, at least, at least there is such a thing as like your You’re mediating somehow between your matter and your mind. We don’t have to get into the precise. There is a there is a an invisible pattern, you know, even though they might try to find ways to get around talking about it or use the word information, for example, who is it that I heard one of the new atheist types who said that, oh, well, at least now we now we know that basically the world is made of matter and information. I was like, okay, Mr. New Platonic, atheist, like, we’re getting somewhere now. Let’s keep talking from from from that point on. Interesting stuff. Yeah. And then we can link that up to symbolism, because symbolism is really the study of how you jump from those different layers of being like what are the symbols that connect levels of being together. And in that article, I, I especially used ad body symbolism. That’s why I’ve been already alluding to it in my explanation. It’s the kind of symbolism I tend to use most. And as you said, it’s, it’s a joy in the blog really that different people will tend to use different kinds of symbolism, like, Eugene really likes to use animals or dragons and beasts and so on. There’s a, I think Max really likes to use like space and time. You’d like to use center and periphery. I like to use ad and body. And it’s, you can see St. Paul doing this, where and it’s, it’s not a, it’s not, it’s not really a surprise considering that St. Paul was both a Jew coming from a symbolic background and also really well studied. Yeah, was a Roman, well studied in Greek philosophy. So you can see him putting those two together when he uses the ad body symbolism to describe the relationship between not only our individual elves with our bodies, but also the relationship between the father and his family and also the relationship between Christ and the church. So it’s been, it’s what I tried to lay out in, in that article. Yeah. What I like about the article especially is you, you really take the time to kind of show the process. And so, like I, I used, I used to be a Christian, I was a Christian, I was a Christian, I was a Christian, I was a Christian, I was a Christian, I was a Christian. And so, like I, I used, I tend to work by when I’m talking about symbolism, I tend to work by analogy and surprise. It’s like, I’m going to create an analogy and then you’re going to be surprised to see your intuition kind of wake up. But what I love about your article is that you actually show the levels. It’s like, okay, from this, like, just like you did now, you really showed how the necessity of this pattern to manifest itself from the scientific sense, you know, in terms of atoms and molecules and bodies. But then also in terms of stories, in terms of your day, in terms of, of anything which has form, anything which has a sense of form, anything which has form, which has a sense of form. showed how the necessity of this pattern to manifest itself from the scientific sense, you know, in terms of atoms and molecules and bodies, but then also in terms of stories, in terms of your day, in terms of anything which has form, anything which presents itself to us as existing, will have to participate in this pattern of emergence. And what’s interesting, I love, I actually, I find the word emergence hilarious. I tend to find it very funny because it’s, it really is, I feel like it’s this like last, last ditch like fist, you know, saying, okay, okay, I see this is real, but I’m still going to do it bottom up. Like I don’t want to accept that there’s also like order coming back down to form the body. Yeah, I think that’s why I like so much to not only start from, let’s say, our bodies and then use that head-body symbolism to go to the higher levels of being. I like to also go down and see that it works even lower because something that will be very convincing to physicalists or scientific types, like if I can show that the same, I can think of myself when I used to be a physicalist, like I could understand well how you go from, let’s say, particles to atoms to molecules to cells. And if I can reuse that machinery that the physicalist uses, let’s say, to think about the relationship between the nucleus in a cell and the organons in the cell, if I can use that to have him think about himself in terms of his head and his body, and then about Christ and the church, like I used his last ditch attempt to reduce everything to the physical and turned it into something that can add spiritual significance. And it’s, I really like the example of the nucleus in the cell because, you know, if you take the nucleus, it’s an organon, like the other organons in the cell, like the mitochondria and all of the other stuff, but it will gather all of what occurs in those different organons into himself, and somehow it will turn it into meaningful information. It will say that, okay, well, these various enzymes that are coming from this organon, when they hit the nucleus, it will have these extremely complex interactions with DNA, and at the higher level, you see this as an exchange of information, of genetic information, and we can’t get away from this language within just biology itself. So you use this information and the cell will want to do this or do that. So it will then order the organons to create this enzyme or this enzyme in response. So you can see the different parts of the different members of the cell being gathered in their head, gathered in the nucleus, which will raise to higher level patterns and then bring it back down to incarnate in the cell. And the same thing that happens in our bodies, same thing that happens in a community, in a church, for instance, where everyone has their different idiosyncrasies, their different patterns that are good to them within the day, and then they will talk with one another and they will also talk with their priest, they will go to confession, they will tell him about the best parts of their day or the worst part of their days, and the priest will gather all of this up, and then he will try to make it all fit within the story of the incarnation. So it takes all of those individual stories, brings it into the highest story, and then uses also symbolic skills to bring it back down to the people, either by talking to them, by altering the prayers during mass, or by creating different prayer groups around the church and so on. So you can see the same sort of pattern that is occurring within cells, is occurring within us, and it’s occurring within the church as well. Yeah, and it’s occurring, you know, if you get the idea of a leader or the idea of a king or something like that, or a president, you can see that happening, because like you said, the king or the president is just a person, like he’s of the same stuff as all the other people in his group, but because he’s been anointed or he has a crown or he’s been chosen, it doesn’t matter which word you use, then he ends up moving above, gathering the will of the people into himself, but also like you said, informing the will of the people to a certain extent. It’s a managing and doing all those words that we use, so you can see that the idea that a cell and a country has the same structure is something which on the one hand can in a way, I think, maybe soothe the physicalist to a certain extent, because we’re saying this is it, like this is, it’s not magical fairies in the way that you think about it, it’s not, although yeah, fairies are part of it too, but it’s like these patterns are the same. We can get there later. We’ll get the fairies and angels later, but for now, you can understand that when we talk about these spiritual truths which inform reality, it’s the same thing happening in the cell that’s happening in the city, and so it can help you understand what we’re talking about when we talk about these things. Yeah, and I remember in a conversation I had with John and also Mary Cohen, we brought the idea of, okay, so because the sort of metaphysics I’ve just been putting forth is like John likes this, he thinks this works quite well, and we asked him whether within cognitive science, this was sort of a widespread attitude or if other people were more physicalistic, and he said that it’s sort of shifting now, and for now, a lot of people are still like reductionist physicalists, but he says that I don’t remember the statistics, but most people who don’t come from just a technical background, people who have a background in let’s say linguistics or philosophy will acknowledge the sort of ontology that I just laid out. So within even just science, the fact that this sort of metaphysics is soothing to them, I think we can see by the fact that John and a bunch of other cognitive scientists are willing to endorse it. Yeah, that’s great. So the next thing I wanted to talk about is really your last article that you put up, which is the symbolism of cell tower burning. It’s such a great timely article, and you’re able to really break down the question of symbolism and its relationship to intuition that people have and how sometimes, let’s say, the causality that people think is there doesn’t necessarily have to be there for the pattern to be true or the pattern to be real. So maybe you can give us a sense. People can check out the article for sure, and I think you also have a version of it that you’re reading online. People can check it out, but you can give us a little hint of what you’re talking about, and it’ll be a good example to kind of play through the different levels that you talked about in terms of cells and everything else. Yeah, I think it’s a good exemplification for the fact that we’ve lost our symbolism and that we’re not very good at it, but if we practice it, let’s say via the blog or via going to church or if we practice symbolism, there’s a bunch of stuff, there’s a bunch of patterns that are much more obvious to us. For instance, I took the case of people burning down cell phone towers because coming from being, yeah, from the same experience. So maybe we can just explain it to people that what happened during the pandemic, so those who don’t know if you’re living in a cave of some sort, during the pandemic, because there were certain people who were saying that the virus was caused or made worse by cell technology, 5G technology, then they started to see this kind of cell technology as like a mass conspiracy to control people and to also kill people off, like to reduce word population, whatever, like all the conspiracy that came around it. And some people took it so far that they went out and actually destroyed some cell towers. And so there you go. Now you can explain the pattern that manifested itself. Yeah, because what happens is I think people grasp onto, like they have a symbol of intuition for real patterns that occur at the psychological and also sociological scale, but because we’re not very good at detecting those anymore or treating them as psychological and social patterns, people try to bring them onto the material matter, material level, and that’s what caused issues. So I can say what are I think the valid patterns that occur at the psychological and social levels. So you can even just start biologically, like the fact that cell phone towers allow people to communicate easily by communicating easily with one another, having internet all over the place, you can travel easily, it’s easy to do business with other people. So this intercommunication within the world allow people to physically move easily and to spread pathogens. So at the biological level, at the social level, there’s already something there relating cell phone towers and the virus. At a psychological level, there’s the fact that there’s tons of stuff that had to do with technology and how it made us more inclined for all the panic that we saw. The fact that we have so much enjoyment possible at our fingertips via our cell phones made people quite willing to just hunker down and stay in their homes to be very obedient to the government. The government was also much more able to monitor what was going on because technology allows us to communicate so easily, like the research can spread, what occurs in China can influence what we do here. And then also the government can propagate information quickly. They can tell people, okay, now you need to follow this law, you need to follow that law and so on. They can even track people with their cell phones to see if they obey or not those regulations. And then we can also add at the communal level as well that we saw a huge social media panic and this just adds fuel to the fire where people feel really trapped by cell phone towers. You can see that there are real patterns from the cell phone towers that occur at the social and psychological levels. Yeah, because such a huge part of the COVID thing and the lockdown was based on media and information. And like you said, our willingness to accept the lockdown, because I mean, can you imagine just 30 years ago, maybe, or 40 years ago, the idea that the government could have imposed this so easily on everybody would have just been impossible. The internet made it possible for people to work from home, made all these things possible, which made us accept the statement of the pandemic and the panic, all of this together. So the idea that cell technology was part and even in a way a cause of the situation was absolutely true. There’s no way to deny it. Yeah, it’s really, so we can see the cell tower as a symbol because it’s a physical artifact. It exists at the physical level. It’s a real tower made of metal and plastics as well, but it mediates also with the psychological and social levels because it participated in the social patterns that fueled the COVID crisis. So I think conspiracy theorists who blame the cell phone towers for the virus, or at least for part of the virus, will intuit this and it’s a valid intuition to start off. But rather than seeing this as a properly social and psychological phenomenon, which you need to provide a psychological and social answer, they cast it down to the physical layer because that’s what we tend to do as we discussed. It’s only been in the last few decades that we’ve been starting to rediscover like neoplatonism and those different theories that incorporate potential and form at different layers of being. So it’s not surprising that people would cast down the social problems that they intuit from the cell towers and that they would cast them down into the language of physics. But you can see that, okay, yeah, you can contrast this with what happened, let’s say, to the Israelites because they would do something similar from time to time. They would notice that there were something breaking up their social and psychological patterns. Like maybe they were shipping a golden calf and it’s causing all kinds of trouble. So they would get rid of that golden calf, but it’s not the whole thing they would do. They wouldn’t just burn the calf down and then hope that because they burned it down physically, then all of a sudden things will be okay. They also reinstated other practices to gather themselves together. So it’s not just a physical problem, it’s a social problem. You need a social solution for it. But I think this is the step that the arsonists don’t quite get. Things won’t just get better because you burn down the cell towers. Yeah, exactly. And in terms of the imagery, it’s very powerful because in scripture, there’s a they call the asherahs or the sacred poles. And so there’s several moments in scripture where the Israelites kind of give in to building these sacred poles that are dedicated to other gods and then they destroy the sacred poles. So there’s something about the actual visual, you talk about this in your article as well, the actual fact that cell towers appear above us and you see them as these towering things is also part of the problem or part of the reason why they end up attracting attention in terms of the source of the because they’re a visible totem of all of technology, of all of media, of all of this kind of strange connectedness that we have through the internet and also all the problems that come with that, all the social diseases that are related to the internet and to this type of connection. And so, like you said, in a kind of weird intuitive way, there’s something that is intuitively, we’re not at all saying you should go burn cell towers. We’re saying that we can understand the fact that people would have that intuition that, okay, here’s an actual image of something which is causing the problem in our society. Yeah, yeah, I think we can even see, I sort of entered at it in my article, what the actual solution would be to this as a psychological and social problem and not as a material problem. And one way of seeing it is that by casting the problem in terms of physics, they’re not able to see all of the other sides of the social patterns and they’re not able to address the problem correctly. So cell towers also have good social effects, like the fact that they can allow people to communicate from overseas, the fact that they allow us to communicate now, for instance, the fact that it did allow experts to exchange information quickly, there’s good sides to this phenomenon. And the real solution, I think, would have been obvious in societies where symbolism was better practiced. If you just consider the fact that there are cities now where the cell phone tower is higher than the IS church tower. And of course, cell phone towers, they fragment people physically, there is a symbol of the technology that fragments us physically. They physically isolate us, just like the virus ended up doing. Yeah, and it’s the opposite of what the church used to do. The IS point in villages that used to be the church where people would gather, they would worship together and then close bonds. You can see we went from a place where communally we would gather around the IS point, which was the church. Now the IS point is the cell phone tower and the fragments us. And the solution is to, well, it’s a social solution. At the social level, what we need to do is we need to build communities that will build churches that go higher than our cell phone towers. That’s the social solution, but there’s no quick intervention you can do. To do this, you need to convert people slowly. And it’s much more tempting to just burn down the cell towers and no part of us. But of course it doesn’t work. Yeah, because you have nothing to replace it with. And it’s interesting because on the flip side of this, on the flip side of people who want to destroy the cell towers, right when COVID started to hit, and I remember here in Quebec, which used to be the most Catholic place in the world, but is now one of the probably the most atheistic places in the world, on the radio, on hit radio, Sikwa, the most hit radio that exists, they spent, they kept going over and over how people should not go to church and how people who go to church should not use holy water, that you shouldn’t go to communion. All of these things were vectors of transmission. And they were talking solely about that on the radio. And I was like, who are you talking to? Who are you talking to? Because no one does that. Like none of the people listening to your radio station go to church, or very few of them. And so I was like, this is interesting. They’re seeing that the church is a place of communion and is still like mythologically in their background thinking, still the place of communion. And so that’s the first place they attack when they want us to socially separate. So it was just a very fascinating thing to notice. Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. And to try to bring it back to the blog, I think it’s those sort of patterns that would have been more obvious in more traditional societies is something that we’re trying to foster on the blog and in this online community in general, where we’re trying to practice seeing the world this way. We’re trying to practice seeing the different symbols that all the different layers of reality together. So that when something weird occurs, when social patterns emerge, that we can actually see them. And we don’t just burn down the cell towers or fuel the problem some other way, that we can actually diagnose the issue and do something positively beyond it. And that wavy little hiccup that I’ll notice, I’ll mention just because I think it’s worth mentioning, that people should go on JP’s video about the cell tower burning and notice that there is a comment by Mathieu Pagot, by my brother there. And he reminds us that even though we can see all the symbolism in terms of story, in terms of social, in terms of psychological, that it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a hint of material causality there. And so you can go check that out for yourself. And there’s some strange things happening in the scientific world as well. So go check that out. I’m really excited to see because I noticed that the next article coming out is something called the Dragon of Minneapolis. And so I’m really looking forward to seeing how some of the people on the blog are going to interpret what’s happening around us right now. Yeah, it’s a good article. I read it and I’ll probably post it on next Tuesday. Nice. So we’re looking forward to that as well. It’s an excellent article, I think. Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how much I’m going to get into what’s going on right now. I might do a video on feet washing or something like that to try to address some of the questions of the things we’ve been seeing going on. But it seems like the world is just spiraling into madness faster and faster. The clown world was funny for a while. It’s not as funny anymore. It’s looking more like a diabolical clown with pointy teeth. Yeah, it’s just scary now. And there’s too many patterns to untangle. It’s difficult. It’s going very fast too. Because everything’s speeding up, it’s very difficult to keep up. We’re still breathing in from COVID and now mass riots everywhere in the US and everything. And soon an election in the US is going to take over in terms of patterns because we’re going to see people take sides. And then we’re going to see some interesting patterns there as well. So everybody buckle up for the rest of 2020. We’re not done. Yeah, we’re going to need symbolism for this because there’s too many monsters that are mingling and interacting with one another. So it makes it very hard to diagnose. There are definitely zombies in those riots, but there’s also other kinds of monsters. And I haven’t wrapped my head around it yet. I don’t know if I last time do it before it’s even over. Oh yeah, it’s interesting stuff. So guys, go to the blog, follow the blog. If you are someone who is really good at symbolic thinking, come on the Facebook group, get your chops, train yourself to think symbolically so that we can have a little army of symbolic thinkers to, let’s say, hold out the madness as the world spirals out of control. All right, everybody. Thanks for your attention. And JP, thanks for your time as usual. It’s a good conversation. Thanks, Jonathan. All right. I hope you enjoyed this discussion on emergence and the symbolism of cell tower burning. As you heard here in this interview, there’s a lot of stuff going on around the symbolic world, around this symbolic thinking. We have the website and the articles in the blog that we talked about with JP. All of these videos are also being put out as a podcast called The Symbolic World. There is also a Cliffs channel, which is constantly putting out material by subject. And so if you ever wondered what I think about this or that, that is definitely the place to look. They’re doing a great job. And of course, if you enjoy what we’re doing, we are doing this completely through the help of people who are financing us, who are funding us, who are supporting us. And so go check out my website at the support page and see the different ways in which you can support this adventure. For those who support the podcast, I have a monthly free video. And this month it will probably be a video on the symbolism of foot washing. And it’ll be related to some of the madness that we’ve seen around the world in the past few weeks. So thanks for your support, everybody. And I will see you very soon.