https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=CT2EWQ6hFqM

And you’re strung downtrod gay. has found new ways to move her feet and the lonely voice of youth cries what is truth? Young men speaking in the city square trying to tell somebody that it gives can you blame the voice of youth for asking what is truth? Yeah, the ones that you’ll call and love are gonna be the leaders in a little while when will the lonely voice of youth cry what is truth? This old world’s wakened to a newborn babe and our solemn lists where it’ll be their way you better help that voice of youth find what is truth? and the lonely voice of youth cries what is truth? Alright, welcome, welcome to Responsibility and Responsible Live Navigation and it’s been a long week I didn’t even schedule the stream on time was that responsible or irresponsible? It’s a good question, but we responsibly have our Sam Pell very important we’ve got some tea from Table Rock Tea our Marathon Tea which is still cooling down I’ve got my drunkless cinnamon roll and I’m ready to roll so, we’re talking about responsibility which is, you know, always important and that’s really the core question what is responsibility? what’s responsible? you hear terms like adulting and adulting just sounds like being responsible anyway, we’re a bunch of people who aren’t adulting very well and yeah, that’s a problem lack of adulting, lack of taking responsibility for what’s going on and not being responsible for the things around you the things you say, the things you do, right? and what is this responsibility really? responsibility is wrapped up in action and we’ve been over action it’s discernment, judgment, action you have a sense of boundaries you get some discernment judgment, action actions aren’t optional you have to act in the world you don’t have a choice you’ve made a judgment to take an action that happened and now you must take responsibility why? because actions have consequences anonymous behavior is irresponsible why? because you can’t instantiate the proper consequences against the person taking the action does that mean no one should ever be anonymous? no but, there’s a responsibility there and one responsibility is that if you’re not willing to speak up and say who you are then how important is your point? should you even be listened to? that’s a valid question for people who are noticing your anonymous behavior should they even pay attention to you? maybe they should when you’re taking an action, you’re risking something you’re risking some set of consequences if you’re not willing to die for the truth, do you care about the truth? if you don’t care about the truth more than anything else is that a problem? it’s about being responsible are you responsible for the truth? yes you have to accept consequences that’s what responsibility is accepting the risk of unknown consequences accepting whatever consequences you do know about if you’re going to tell somebody the truth about themselves you better be really prepared to accept the consequences for that because it may mean the last time you ever talk to that person that happens and responsibility is another one of these things if you’re looking for clear bright lines in responsibility it’s not going to happen I’m not here to make this easy you want easy? go find some comforting lies somewhere we’re not about that here we’re trying to navigate a complex world that is very complex and we’re very simple creatures in so many ways and the problem with responsibility is we don’t start out with it when you’re born, you’re not responsible you didn’t bear yourself you didn’t raise yourself when you were a baby and then as we grow up we have more responsibility it changes it changes throughout our lives it changes throughout similar conditions or even the same condition it’s just a moving target like so many things go figure entropy is still a factor it’s real, we must account for it are we responsible for entropy? no, but we’re responsible for accounting for it are we responsible for our addictions? maybe not but we’re responsible for how we respond to them our response to who and what we are is something we’re responsible for response, responsible a response is an action worse yet, you can be responsible you can also be held responsible why? action it all comes back to action which is still not optional we are creatures that take action in the world and through our inaction we take action it’s not optional no wonder why people desperately want to be nihilistic look at what we’re responsible for Jordan Peterson where is that burden? he talks about being responsible for the whole world in some sense are we? or worse, are we the world? we are responsible for our part of it, that’s for sure and our part touches other parts what does that mean? and this goes back to gratitude which Jesse did a wonderful job with just a few short live streams ago we should be grateful that we’re not fully responsible for everything because that’s where people get confused are you fully responsible for anything? I don’t know this requires discernment and judgment you have to judge where your responsibility lies how do we know responsibility? from action responsibility is bearing the weight of your participation in action in the world with the three frames you with yourself, you with nature, and you with other people how do we know consequence? we learn a consequence through participation, through action, through responding to things that’s how we learn the boundaries of responsibility if we don’t take good care of those eggs, whatever’s in them dies I went to 4-H, it was a lovely summer we had to take care of our chicken eggs what about your pets? are you responsible for your pets? how much if your pet does something wrong? are you responsible? your pet did it? what’s the action? so we’re not just responsible for the direct effects of our own actions that’s absurd but we’re also not responsible for other people’s actions in their totality where is that lying? those consequences are things we learn as a result of participation in the world who is responsible for the power that you have? what is power? time, energy, and attention who? who is responsible for that? you, and only you can be responsible for that is it perfect? welcome to original sin nothing you do is perfect all the time perfection is so fleeting and so rare one dare not hope to attain it such fragility, such fragile beauty is more responsibility than you can bear in a world that is often indifferent or in competition with you yet your responsibility is to try to enact perfection that still exists what a quandary indeed, what a conundrum, what a struggle, what a fate that’s the nature of responsibility it was thrust upon you, for sure and the problem is, it was thrust upon you and if you don’t take control of it, it will own you you have to be responsible because you have to take action in the world you have to judge to take action you have to discern to judge are you aware of all this? are you paying attention to what you’re discerning? do you understand the boundaries? sometimes you have to cross boundaries, but you have to take responsibility for that even when you do it out of ignorance, how much responsibility do we take for our own ignorance? what about the unknown unknowns? what if most of the universe is unknown unknowns? how are we supposed to square all this? what is it that we’re attending to? attention, that’s the world, the world is attention Jonathan Bigeaux was right about that what are you attending to? where is your responsibility? what things are you taking responsibility for and what are you taking responsibility for? where is your responsibility? what things are you taking responsibility for and what things are you ignoring responsibility for? it’s a good question, we’re all doing it we can’t take full responsibility for everything we can’t take perfect responsibility for anything what is the nature of our responsibility? is it mere acceptance for the consequences of our action? or are we responsible for predicting some of those consequences? are we responsible for knowing the things that are going to have consequences to us? is it fair that somebody holds us responsible? it’s an interesting way to think about it what if we’re held responsible? what does that mean? well look, in courts, if you’re insane, temporarily or otherwise you’re not held responsible for your actions in their entirety you still may be put away, just not in jail or prison, more correctly what does that mean? that means that society, the distributed cognition of the culture in which you live has decided throughout thousands of years at this point that there is a point of responsibility and that there is a gradient of responsibility and it’s not at all in game but determining what we’re responsible for, why we’re responsible for it when to be responsible and when to let things go that to me goes back to duty, you have a duty to do that you have a duty to understand responsibility to embody your responsibility to reject things that are not your responsibility to understand the weight that you have adopted and the weights that were put upon you without your knowledge or consent because it’s not all you you’re in this world, you are born at a time that you’re not responsible for your actions and you’re not responsible for your actions you’re in this world, you are born at a time in a place, and that was that and then someone raised you where you wouldn’t be here that makes you responsible those responsibilities to tend to the world in which you are living are there, they are real and you have to pay attention to them it is your job to pay attention it is your job to attend and it is your job to care you are responsible for those things are you responsible for everything that happens to you? no, that’s impossible, the world is huge and you’re a tiny little creature and you’re just a muppet I’m a muppet, we’re all muppets we’re led by spirits the zeitgeist the egregore, whatever you want to call it I have a video on egregores, by the way am I responsible for announcing that I have a thousand subscribers all of a sudden today? thank you very much am I responsible for telling you who my one thousandth subscriber was since I actually know is it irresponsible for me not to tell that information to you? are we responsible for our bad parents when they were bad? are we responsible for our imperfect parents when they were imperfect? are we responsible for judging whether they were bad or imperfect? that’s a better question what is responsibility? where does it begin and end? that might as well be the question of our age or maybe the question of all ages because we can’t take on the world we have small feet, as illustrated in my bad drawing and of course we’re standing on the world it’s kind of hard to put it on your shoulder if you’re standing on it that’s the deep paradox, the deep irony the deep contradiction of Atlas great book, Atlas Shrugged love Ayn Rand, wonderful stuff what is the responsibility that an author has to a reader? what if that author leads you astray? what if that author leads you astray? what if that author leads you astray? did they? or did you lead yourself astray? and they just helped where’s that line? when we take responsibility we take our proper place in the world and where is that? do we know? are we going to get it right? I don’t think so but you have to try there’s a conundrum you can’t just say, oh, I don’t know where my proper place is do we all have the same place? we don’t all have the same abilities and the problem of responsibility is you take action what action did you decide to take? I can decide, well, I was trained I’m trained I’m trained I’m trained I’m trained I’m trained I’m trained I was trained to kill with my hands, and if somebody does something to me, maybe the action I take results in their death. But the thing is, just because I have the ability to do that, or my level of agency is that high, doesn’t mean that I should do it. And if you know your level of agency, if you can discern that, yeah, you’re pretty well responsible, right? Like, if you attack somebody and kill them, that’s pretty much your responsibility. Now, how much responsibility is really the question there? Did you know you could kill somebody with your hands? Did you know how strong you were? Was it an accident? These are hard to discern. Courts go over these sorts of cases all the time. If you’re the person taking action, though, you have some form of responsibility. How much responsibility, again, this is the big question. What are the components that make up responsibility? Knowing yourself, knowing nature, knowing other people. Imperfectly, though, all three of those will be. That’s your level of responsibility. And what is it that you’re knowing? You’re knowing through participation. You’re knowing through action in the world. You’re discerning and understanding consequence as the result of having had consequences by observing your actions. So first you have to act. That requires a discernment and judgment. And then you have to observe the results of those actions. And look, some actions we have, we don’t know. You smile at somebody, maybe they don’t go home and beat their wife. I don’t know. That happens. I know what happens. I don’t know when it happens. I don’t need to. I can be responsible and do my best to be pleasant. I was out today and I was standing in line to make a transaction. We got up and a guy with his kid came in behind me. The kid sat down in the waiting area. I did my transaction and asked the woman, oh, I need to do this other transaction. Oh, I’ll send them a message. Wait over there and they’ll call you and everything will be fine. So I go and sit down. The guy was behind me. So he went to the next booth whenever I was done and he comes and sits down. And then somebody calls next. And of course, I had been there for a long time. So I got up and he said, no, no, I’m next. What’s my responsibility? Is it to enforce the law of lines? I was here first. And potentially cause a conflict? I would have been right. Is it my responsibility to be right and asserted all the time? Am I responsible for being rightness and all the timeness? No. I’m in a public place responsible for diffusing a potentially dangerous situation with somebody who clearly is unhinged. Are we responsible for tragedy when it strikes us? We’re in a car. Somebody rams into us. Is that our responsibility? We have a car. We decided to go out on the road. We’re in a car. Somebody rams into us. Is that our responsibility? We have a car. We decided to go out on the road. We’re in a car. We decided to go out on the road. It’s not an easy thing to discern that level of responsibility, where it begins, where it ends. But we are responsible for what we do. And we are responsible for what we expose ourselves to. That doesn’t mean we’re fully responsible for either. But we need to be mindful of these things. We need to pay attention to them. We need to be mindful of the things that we do. We need to be mindful of these things. We need to pay attention to them. We need to have a relationship to the things around us, such that we accept the consequences for interacting with them. I’ve said this many times. Very hard for me to have candy in the house. When I was younger, was it an issue? I don’t know why. It is now. I just don’t buy candy. Thank you, William. I’d like to think I’m good content. And I have a thousand subscribers, so I guess so. Am I responsible for all of my subscribers? No. Metropageo is. Probably going to have doubled my subscriber count. Two weeks. The way things look. But it’s my content. But it’s not my content. All the artwork is Sally’s except for my little animation in the front, which was Yana. And the music, which was done by Rizzi. And the little animation in the front of my live streams. That’s partly me, partly Sally Jo. And partly anonymous musician. So am I responsible for my channel? I didn’t post the live stream in advance like I usually do. Where is this mysterious responsibility? And how do we relate to it? I mean, the problem is it’s an abstraction. You have to understand it in the future, deal with it in the present, and come to terms with it in the past. And a lot of things in life are like that. Responsibility is something that we have to deal with. Whether we want to or not. It’s something that we have to deal with. Whether we want to or not. It’s something we have to orient in relationship to. It’s a navigation. And sometimes the responsible thing to do is to keep your head down and just go with whatever you’re told because you have to. And another thing you are responsible for, I’m glad William brought that up, is your ethics and your morals. I define ethics as the ideal and morals as the implementation. A lot of people think they do it backwards, although to hear them talk they do not. Your behavior. Your behavior. Your moral responsibility is to be an ethical agent to the best of your ability because your ability is limited. Your agency is limited. Your cognition is limited. There are still unknown unknowns. And there are still known unknowns. And your responsibility is to make sure that you are attending to your moral duty. And your responsibility is to make sure that you are attending to your moral duty. Your moral duty is to be a moral agent. To try to enact the ethically perfect version of whatever it is you’re taking an action for. And since we can’t because perfection is a rare gift and it’s fleeting, we have to take responsibility for that imperfection. Not all of it, but some of it. And that’s the issue. Where is your responsibility? Are you responsible for what the president says? Are you responsible when he falls down the stairs? Are you responsible for having poor election choices? Somewhat. Are you responsible for Twitter being a dumpster fire? Not if you post pictures of flowers. Are you responsible for going onto Twitter that is a dumpster fire when it is a dumpster fire and posting pictures of flowers knowing that it’s not going to change the world? Or is it? Or is it? You have to be responsible for the consequences of your actions. Your actions have to account for the moral nature that they will inevitably enact and manifest in the world. And sometimes you just have to pay the ultimate price. Because that’s how the world is. But that doesn’t mean we’re not responsible. And it doesn’t mean we’re responsible for everything. And we have a hard time with that. A lot of these things are not clear, bright, and easy. And the things that are, we’re rejecting. And the things that aren’t, you have a moral responsibility to use my pronouns. Oh really? Let me find out how that’s going to work out for you. I know it’s going to work out for me. And we can’t know the results, the consequences, of every action we take. We can’t know in advance if an action is moral. Is it moral to give somebody confidence that gets them killed? That happens. I’m not picking that particular example to be provocative. That happened. Where is your responsibility? Where is your responsibility? Are you responsible for the decay of the world? Are you responsible for the climate? Are you responsible for your brother? Your sister? Your mother? Your father? Your neighbor? How responsible? And what happens today is the hijacking of attention. Why do they want to hijack your attention? Because the world is attention. That’s why. And they’re trying to make a new world. So they want your attention. Who’s the they? It doesn’t matter. There’s lots of different parties. They all have different goals. I don’t care who they are. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what you’re paying attention to. It matters when you are giving responsibility to somebody else and when you’re taking it on yourself. Is that going to go well for you all the time? No! Is anything going to go well for you all the time? No! It’s not an easy world. It’s just not. That’s why we need navigation. Direction won’t cut it. Navigation is hard. It requires responsibility. It requires lots of attention. Are you attending to the right and moral things of the world? Are you attending to morality? Your ethics and your morals are your responsibility for sure. And you can change yourself. Obviously. You did. You were a baby. You’re not a baby anymore. Hopefully. Some people are still pretty infantilized. But that’s really the issue is where is that responsibility? Change is happening all around you. And where you attend matters. You’re responsible for your attention. Entirely no because you don’t entirely control your attention. Anymore than you entirely control your passions. It’s not an easy thing. But I’m not here to give you easy answers. What is your responsibility? You’re responsible for your attention. You’re responsible for the world that you’re living in. If you want to say different people live in different worlds, absolutely they do. The average city person and the average person that doesn’t live in a city, and the average suburb person and the average person that lives on a farm, they live in different worlds for sure. They live in different worlds for sure. For sure. The average video game addict, different world. Different world. I don’t have to judge them necessarily. I can judge their actions. Because some of the people who spend a lot of time in video games are perfectly great people despite spending most of their time in video games. Then you don’t have to judge them by your perception of their actions. You can judge them by their actions in the world. Instead of by these affectations that fool you into thinking that maybe, because on average people who are addicted to video games are bad, maybe that’s not the best way to think about it. And we can just observe their actions in real time. Maybe. We all have our little things that aren’t so great, that we don’t like. And we’re still responsible. And we’re responsible for our judgment of others. And we’re responsible for what we’re judging them on. Judge them on how they behave in the world. What their actions are. That’s what you need to judge them on. The important part of responsibility is realizing that it is something that you need to attend to. Like so many things. Like so many things. You cannot be a moral person if you do not attend to being a moral person. Which means you have to attend to morality itself. And compare it against an ethical ideal. Which is not a standard in terms of quantity or measurement. It’s a standard in terms of quality. What is the quality of the world that you are participating with? And what quality are you bringing into that world? Imperfectly though it may be. And we’re responsible not for our imperfection, because that’s also what makes us unique, but for our own self-esteem. And we’re responsible for our own self-esteem. And we’re responsible not for our imperfection, because that’s also what makes us unique, and what allows us to do anything, but we are responsible for what we do with our imperfections. And what we do in all of our actions. In all of our predictions. If you predict a dark, gloomy, gloomy world where work is nothing but slavery, that’s the world you’re going to live in. Because that’s what you’re attending to. Is that responsible? If you just cast everything as larping. Is that responsible? If everyone’s larping, is anyone doing anything? Responsibility is hard. It’s hard to be responsible. It’s hard to take responsibility. It’s hard to know how much to take and how much we have to give up. That’s the problem. We’re responsible for participating. And what it means to be responsible is simply to look. It doesn’t resolve it. It’s not a resolvable thing. It’s not a problem to be solved. It’s not a problem to be called. It is a struggle that is not optional. And it’s not just your struggle. It’s everyone’s struggle. And so, with that, I shall end my responsible monologue. And invite anybody who wishes to hop in on the conversation to talk about responsibility. We don’t have to stick strictly to that. I’m going to responsibly drink some Sam Pell. I haven’t seen my semi-responsible friend Jesse yet. Maybe he’ll hop in and join us. Talk about responsibility. And I like that Jordan Peterson talks about it. You know, he mentions responsible for what. Are you responsible for the world or how much of it is really the better question? It is a good question. And there isn’t a good answer. I bet there is good Marathon tea from the Table Rock Tea Company to drink. Uh-oh, here’s some trouble. Assuming he can get his camera working. It doesn’t seem as though he can get his camera working. Come on, Shane. I like the waiting room in StreamYard, but sometimes it surprises you with strange behaviors. Who’s responsible for that? Oh, it’s Bubbleviz. Hello, Bubble. How are you doing? Whoops. We lost our potential interlocutor. We’ll have to wait for Jesse. In case he actually shows up. Although he’s an artist. Artists are all irresponsible. That’s just their nature. Sick for 10 days? I’m sorry to hear that. I hope you’re feeling better now. 10 days is a lot of work. I’m sorry to hear that. I hope you’re feeling better now. 10 days is a long time to be sick. I noticed some irresponsibility on the part of our government. These wildfires caused smoke to come out. And they didn’t really report the air quality correctly to anybody. So nobody knew until it was too late. Now you’re healthy again? That’s good. Starting going bicycling? Oh, that’s great. I should buy a bicycle and go bicycling. Some virus. Oh, well, virii are no good. Oh, William. Irresponsible artists. Is that why software is so bad? No, software is bad because we’re trying to train a bunch of people to be software engineers. And of course, you can’t train somebody to be a software engineer. So it doesn’t work out too well. Plus, we’re giving a bunch of people with low aptitude the responsibility for knowing things that are really not able to be known by them. Bubble thinks wildfires seem like a problem that can be solved someday. I don’t know about that. I think they’re part of the cycle of nature. And when we interfere with it, we make it worse because we’re muppets. It’s not good to be a muppet, but it’s all we got. And that’s the problem. We only have muppetness. I don’t know. Robin’s tried to get in twice, but he’s unable to do so, it seems. Can’t get his camera working for some reason. What is with you people and your technological problems? The responsible thing to do is to spend way too much money on your computer equipment. This doesn’t prevent technical problems, but it does lower their frequency by some small amount. William Branch, civilized fires or uncivilized fires? Choose wisely. Yes. And maybe wisdom is wrapped up in responsibility. And maybe responsibility is wrapped up in wisdom. Dun, dun, dun. Bubble thinks wildfires in populated regions should be avoided. Well, the problem with the Canadian wildfires is not the fires. They can burn their own country down if they want, but all that smoke, all the way down into North Carolina, it’s a long way. Probably eight or nine hundred miles of smoke at least. That’s a lot of smoke. It didn’t hit most of New England or eastern New England anyway. I guess it hit western Massachusetts though. Which is a good point, William. Lightning and arson are hard to prevent. Yes, they are both. Bubble, Portugal had an invasive tree species taking over abandoned land there. Their species were fire loving and were very flammable. Well, some fires are started by people and some fires are started by irresponsible people. And some fires are started by people who are not responsible. And some fires are started by people because they don’t know any better. And some fires are prevented when they should be left to burn before they aren’t left to burn for ten years and then become huge. I believe they were called mimosa, sort of a caseous. Mimosa is a lovely drink of champagne and orange juice that one has in the morning, sir. Quick creosote bush, suicidal plant, indeed. Well, that’s the problem. It turns out that if trees are exposed to small fires, especially down below on the lower bark, the bark becomes hardened to it because trees are antifragile, much like people. And then fires are much less likely to happen because the trees become fire resilient. So it’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero-sum game there. It’s not really a zero sum game there. It’s pretty tricky. Perkesi, Pennsylvania. There’s a wiki article about it. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. Fires are bad. Smoke is bad. Burning things is fun, though. I gotta admit. I love making campfires. I didn’t do any campfires this winter. I have a bunch of firewood too. I should probably burn some. Oh, Hanselman is sexist. Boys tend to be fascinated by fire. I think everybody tends to be fascinated by fire. It’s one of those things you should contemplate or ruminate on. That was the topic. One of the topics that Metshier Cajot brought up on Twitter recently. I think that’s what’s fascinating about campfires. They’re fascinating because that meshes nicely with our integration. The integration that Manuel and I were talking about. We did all this work on meditation and some of these other practices that we were working on. Interaction turns out to be key. It’s not mere entertainment. Entertainment is something you can walk away from. There are very few, if any, consequences. Mostly, sometimes entertainment turns into something more significant. But practices, especially practices where you’re supposed to embody or allow for self-transformation or transformation of some kind, that seems to require integration. Integration not only requires time, but also requires having a certain attitude towards certain level of attention towards and therefore certain responsibility for the practice you’re engaged in. William, one of my younger female friends was playing with matches as a child burned down her parents’ house a week before Christmas. That’s awful. Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah, fire can really get out of hand pretty quickly. But it’s good to learn how to hang out with fire and be responsible for it. It’s kind of amazing. Little known fact, a lot of chefs have no problem sticking their hand in fire for short periods of time. I actually knew somebody. She moved a log in a burning fireplace that had been burning for quite some time. And I was like, how did you just do that? I mean, at the time I was much younger and I had pretty good paint on. I was like, what the hell is that? What the hell is that? But yeah, it’s fire bad, fire bad, fire bad. The thing is, in my country, the Netherlands, we pretty much got wildfires under control a long time ago that we had a big wildfire. Yeah, I can’t flew over your country and yeah, there’s nothing there to burn. It’s all pretty much grassy lowlands. I don’t think anyone gets fire under control, but a little bit different in places with lots of trees like Canada and a lot of the US still has a lot of trees. And we have wicked grass fires in the Midwest sometimes. And a lot of them are set off by lightning. William claims Eskimo children handle knives from a young age and don’t and I assume that’s don’t cut themselves. Yeah, well, sure they do when they’re young. That’s how you learn not to cut yourself. That’s always the trade off, right? Anselman claims my sister and I had a candle in our childish makeshift tent in the house. Well, you can guess. Quickly extinguished though. Never told the parents. Well, yeah, Gouda trees not flammable, but watch the wooden shoes can confirm William. Good advice. See, even bubble agrees. Yes, wooden shoes are a fire hazard. They are. But at least you can always just take your finger out of the dike and put out the fire pretty quickly and put your finger back in when you’re done. The advantage of living in the Netherlands. Every every good American knows how it works. They have shifts for the fingers in the dike thing. I’ve always wondered. 12 hours on 12 hours off. Somebody else takes over. What is it three 12 hour shifts finger in the dike. The Dutch never answer me. It’s an easy question. I think they just admit and yet they do not. They’re not taking responsibility for having their fingers in their dikes to hold them up. That would be sabotage setting fire to clogs. Thank you, Anselman. Yes. Excellent. Excellent Star Trek reference, I must say. Lieutenant Commander Savik. I don’t know why I remember that so well. I held a scene though. Forget how many times I’ve seen that. Perhaps that’s irresponsible of me. I don’t know. Yes, bubble. Half of your country lies beneath sea level. Yes, it does. I flew over it. It sure does. It’s like really weird. Next time I’ll have to get off the plane and actually go visit. But and then I’d be with the insufferable Dutch. So I got to admit my time in the airport. I was not a fan. Not a fan. It was better than Rome. It was better than the Italian airport outside of Rome. That was miserable. Those guys. So disorganized. Nathaniel, do you consider yourself an objectivist? No. Ayn Rand does not have a philosophy. A lot of what would you call it? Christian baseline ethos and assumptions are built into what Rand talks about. Rather, like she’s a very like if that’s a philosophy, it’s the most shallow philosophy. It really doesn’t account for a lot, but I’m still a big fan. Like I think what she’s talking about is vitally important. The re-emphasis of self valuation as an inoculant against the empathy and comfort modality that’s used to drag people into the communist ethos or the Marxist ethos. There we go. See bubbles on us. We are a rude people. Yes, sometimes. People loves that refuse of living here. I don’t know. William claims there’s a Rand fight. No, I’ve I’ve talked to the guys on the clubhouse has a room in the Atlas Society, which is rather good. Sometimes they have Stephen Hicks in there too. It’s interesting. I like Stephen Hicks a lot. He’s an interesting guy. I don’t agree with a bunch of stuff that he says, but yeah, some of the Rand Society are really interesting groups. And, you know, it’s interesting, too, because they tend to take lots of responsibility, but they do limit it in an interesting way. Right. But yeah, I mean, if you understand Rand’s project and almost nobody does. You know, it should be admirable. She really was giving you a way to fight against, you know, wokeism, really, way before it was a thing. William, really, really bad jokes. Really. Dutch kiss a lot to lips. Yes. Bubble claims I never kiss. But yes, it’s common. You that’s horrible. That sounds irresponsible. Why wouldn’t you kiss people? It’s a European thing to think, do thing. It’s like, what? We just kind of shake hands or punch each other in the chest or the shoulder. Beat each other up. That’s that’s more affectionate. Can confirm. Oh, bubble, is it three times left cheek, right cheek, left cheek? Really? I don’t know. I don’t know all these crazy European ways. Here, as I can tell, the whole place is full of zombies. So be careful. You’re in Europe. Be careful. Especially Scotland, man. And now please just follow zombies. Don’t go to Edinburgh. I get your brains. Can’t someone don’t mention tulip. You’ll attract Calvinists. That would be irresponsible. Swiss kiss and tell. I don’t. Am I responsible for all these bad jokes? I don’t know. I feel responsible somehow. And yet I do not. Because you all are doing it, not me. I don’t think I’ve told a single bad joke yet. At least not in this live stream. I’m also not responsible for Jesse not showing up. He’ll betrayed. But it is my responsibility to have this dream. I can’t believe I didn’t set it up. You totally lost track of what day it was and what was going on. And it’s like I was too busy being responsible for something else. I’ve got two worker bees now. So we can get the office in order and equipment set up and getting work done. Anselman William Tell made overtures. Yes. Bubble mark. I favor identity politics. How about you? I don’t know how you’re defining identity politics. Politics is a binary frame and is useless for almost everything. And identity is not a single thing. You favorite since it is already there. I don’t know what that means. Like how do you enact something that would be called identity politics? I mean, I understand the attempt at the system they’re trying to use, right? To reduce everything to politics. The world is hard. Let’s reduce it to a binary. OK, but that’s not going to work. William claims I have reverted to tribal versus national. Yeah, you guys in your binary frames are killing me. I have a video on binary frames and why you shouldn’t do it. I’m just saying. Don’t do the binary frame thing. It’s really not healthy. It will not serve you well. It’s also completely unnecessary. Just, you know, incidentally. William Big Tent identity is useless to me. Yes, identity is very useless. I am going to. Identity is very useless. I am going to. Responsibly allow you all to support my streams. Oh, oh, here’s a stranger. You all. Oh, you have running in the back, Elizabeth. Oh, OK, OK, OK. I haven’t done this. I haven’t done this for like three months. I know. Which one do I? OK, OK, OK. Leave the other. Leave the stream yard open. Which one do I? Leave the other. Leave the stream yard open. Leave the other. Leave the stream yard open. OK, here’s hoping. Yeah, that work. Sounds better. How are you doing? It’s been way too long. It’s good to see you. I really like your comment about hallucination. I want to talk about responsibility and hallucination. What do you think? It’s really interesting. I didn’t cover hallucination, but yeah, you’re right. What are we responsible for in the world? I went into action a bit. I wanted to originally go in further, but. Yeah, but your comment that you made online was so brilliant. Like, which one was it? I mean, you make lots of brilliant comments. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You’re talking about oh, this is the one. This isn’t a topic, maybe, but maybe it is. Because you said two days ago, speaking of evil, I cannot have been the only person who noticed that with chat GPT, we go from the works on my machine in quotes software engineering problem to works in my hallucination problem. This thing is a terrible software engineer. Can you just go on that one and tell me where you’re going? And hey, put it in with responsibility. Sure. Because responsibility is the antithesis of this machine thing, right? And I’m really excited about the idea of hallucination, evil. And then, well, if we want to get into chat GPT, that’d be cool. Yeah. Well, no, it’s right up that alley, right? Because what is AI, right? AI is a Frankenstein mirror made out of, funhouse mirror, made out of the parts of dead things, right? Because the information that it has is old. It’s dead. It doesn’t generate new ideas. Now, the funny part about the hallucination thing is like, you could not, like, it’s so weird. It’s so freaking weird. You could not have come up with a more appropriate and precise, accurate, descriptive name for what it’s doing. But it’s not flattering. Like, the AI hallucinates. You know what, though? It’s going to write the new Bible and be our God. You just admitted it, it hallucinated. What are you, an insane? Like, what? This makes no sense. So, being irresponsible in assigning it these, you know, it’s a God. It’s hallucinating. Yeah, yeah. Do you want to rely on something that hallucinates as a source of authority? Really? Is that your one way of? But that’s brilliant. Like, I love the hallucin- it’s just a perfect image. I couldn’t believe that they- I couldn’t believe that the AI people were talking about it like that. Right? And then he just said pretend. And right? And he said, oh, it pretends. It’s like, well, yeah, but hallucination is more accurate because it’s not intending to pretend something realistic. It’s hallucin- and the way I know is- and I went over this on my personal channel, which is just my name, by the way. It’s a little more technical. I try- you know, they do a lot of software there. I’ve been playing with ChatGPT. There’s a project that I’ve been using on and off for, you know, six or seven years. It’s really cool. You could train an AI to play Pong. And Andrew Carpathy did this in 200 lines of source code about seven years ago, something like that, and wrote an article, a famous article. And that was right at the beginning of OpenAI and all this. And OpenAI has a training program for Pong where it emulates the Atari 2600 and it plays a Pong game. And then you can- it does all the games, though. But this- just Pong is a particular fascination of mine, so I use that one. OpenAI wrote ChatGPT. It’s the same organization. So I asked it to take some of these Pong variations and modify them. And it can’t do it. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It’s weird. And the thing is- That’s something. It makes weird mistakes. Like, you tell it- no, no, no. The data coming in and the data you’re processing don’t match, which means that the previous code, the previous code doesn’t match, which means that the previous call that you’re making is wrong. But the thing is, the previous call they’re making is also their code. But even if it wasn’t, it’s an API, which means you can look up the specifications and find out what it is. So it doesn’t even bother to do that. So I don’t know what it’s doing. And then when it makes a change, sometimes it says- you’re feeding it the source code. So I feed it the whole source code, and I say, here’s the error. Can you fix it? Right? And of course, in many cases, I actually know the fix. So I’m just experimenting. Yeah, yeah. It gives me the same code back. And says, this will fix it. And I’m like, it’s the same code. You didn’t change anything. Wow, Mark. So there you go. Wow. Well, it’s not responsible for its answers. And then- Somebody on Twitter today posted- Oh, it was Vanderclay. I think it was Vanderclay posted something about asking chat GPT who the famous political people were. Or famous people. And it gave him a class of the top five most famous political people. And they were all Democrats. And he was like, who’s missing in this list? And then when you call the thing out, when you say, hey, dude, what about these other famous political people who just happened not to be Democrats? Right? It apologizes, which is just the weirdest thing in the world, admits that it did something. And Peterson talks about this. Peterson did the same sorts of experiments. He catches it in a lie. He calls it out for the lie. He says, oh yeah, I absolutely screwed up. And then proceeds to correct it. And it’s like, this is what you want to make your God? Something that knowingly lies to you? Not that I think that’s what’s actually happening, because I know too much about the tech to believe that. But it doesn’t matter. It has been programmed to lie to you. That’s the important part. But you want to make it your God. It’s like, I don’t, are you being responsible when you’re thinking that that can happen? Are you being responsible when you think that’s a good idea? Are you being responsible when you know full well it hallucinates and you’re telling people to listen to it? None of this is responsible. And are you being responsible when you say it’s going to take a coder’s job? When had you taken an hour of your time to actually ask it to do simple programming tasks, you would have realized actually there’s a whole class of programming that it cannot do. Where did you get the word hallucinate from though? What was the context? Because I didn’t know that. AI people use it. This is what I can’t believe. I’m like, you guys are talking about your stuff using that word? Really? That’s amazing. Why, Mark, what are they doing? Why would they do that? Is it supposed to be cool then? Does that make it like Peterson and psychedelics? I don’t know. I don’t know where it came from. Well, maybe it does appeal to people. Maybe they want to find out about the hallucinating chat GPT. Well, hallucination is self-transformation for scientists nowadays, right? Like they all want to take their drugs, have a hallucination and self-transform. So maybe that’s why. Oh, you think it’s used in a very positive way then? Obviously it must be. Or no, maybe it’s just to get attention. No, they think it’s positive. You think so? Oh, they definitely think it’s positive. Well, because they’re touting it. They’re like holding it up. They’re like, oh yeah, this is getting crazier by the second. This is crazier than like what I thought 10 minutes ago. It’s bonkers. The whole thing is bonkers. Wow. It’s like a Fellini movie. It really is like a Fellini movie. Did you hear Peterson and James Lindsay? Great job. Amazing. My favourite. It was my favourite though. It was great. It was just fantastic. You know why? Because they’re so equally matched. To me it was you could see with Peterson that we’re so locked into the conversation and then he shakes hands at the end. He has such a great respect. I think because Lindsay, you know what? He nails things and he doesn’t in a way not a non-confrontational way. He purports like with his body language he kind of seems to be a little bit more of a bull than he really is actually. He’s saying things as if they’re he doesn’t make excuses for anything. I think those two are remarkable. I posted I put a comment. I thought it was my favourite conversation with Peterson for sure. I thought it was remarkable. And James Lindsay knows his stuff. Right. Lindsay really knows his stuff. But Peterson is the epitome of responsibility in action because he just he exemplifies. He doesn’t talk about it that much, but not that much. But he exemplifies responsibility. Well I have to argue with you on that one. Here we go. I think it’s his wife who’s responsible to be quite honest. And I’m not saying that lightly. Probably. I mean it’s not just him. But I mean when he’s on stage you know he’s taking responsibility. Yeah but she’s try to imagine what her life must be like honestly. She’s a remarkable human being as far as I’m concerned. Oh sure. I mean she’s extraordinarily responsible. Absolutely. Absolutely. He’s out there taking responsibility like a man should. Right out in front. Taking the hits and saying stuff on Twitter that’s just like wow. And he often shoo’s it up. Yeah he’s willing to make mistakes. You have to say that for… But he takes responsibility for those mistakes. I think people like him because he does take responsibility. And he does make mistakes and that’s why we love him so much. Because he’s an exemplar of the human right? Yes. Well that’s what I mean. He’s exemplifying really good behaviour. Yeah and humaneness. You do make mistakes. And you know what I loved best in the Exodus series. Did you see the last one with Stephen Blackwood at the end? I think that was the first one. He invited all of them after they finished the whole session. All of the sessions. They sort of had a final summing up. Stephen Blackwood was remarkable. He said and he’s always coming from a different angle. And he said he started off with how tragic it was. What was the first… That Dr. Peterson had been invited to speak. Was it at Cambridge or Oxford? And they cancelled on Cambridge I think. He was being offered some… It was a place to study I think it was. And maybe contribute academically. I didn’t get all of it. And then it was stopped. Then that whole thing happened. Stephen Blackwood I thought it was so incredible that he was shining. He was shining on the attention of everybody onto the reality of Jordan Peterson’s life. That things always don’t work out that great. And he went on and on about how tragic it was and how sad he felt. But he didn’t let up. He didn’t let up. Then he went to the next thing. He said the troubles that you had. We all know how very ill you were. And how you got caught in a horrible situation. And I thought that was… What he was doing there was saying, yeah, everybody… Dr. Peterson is human. Because this was right at the end when everybody else was being more intellectual I’d like to say. But not really. Dr. Peterson was so interesting because the second part when Stephen Blackwood talked about something in particular he said he didn’t remember it. So it was just really beautiful in some way. That was the whole idea. When you talk about responsibility you know me. I’m going to have to talk about my little Italian adventure always. But what strikes me always about my little community where I go in Italy is they are… Because the patterns are still instantiated the patterns of… Shane, I don’t know if I’m listening. Because the patterns are still instantiated it’s much easier. It’s so much easier to fall into those patterns from the mirror neurons. And imitation of behaviour. When you were talking today, because you know I do like Ethan and I do listen to him, I don’t dare not listen to him. And yeah, he… I thought about it too. We’re so stuck in this visualistic world. It is really difficult. All those questions you were posing, it’s the modern dilemma. It’s so difficult to know. It’s precisely the point. Whereas in this little community where I go there’s older people that are in their 70s and 80s and you know in all sorts of stages of life. And it’s really interesting how it all has been instantiated practically, right? All the way down to the end. And it’s worked because everybody’s still behaving responsibly. The way… It actually feels more holy probably than a church. Because to watch the people interacting at this little port, right? Where the fairy comes in and the fishermen go out. It’s the centre of everything. And it’s very small. But you can watch them. And they’re constantly… And we’re talking about attention. They’re constantly watching each other. Not in an intrusive way, but watching, paying attention. And if someone needs help, there is always somebody. Like, do you need help getting your boat into the water? Do you need help with the fish? Blah, blah, blah. It’s remarkable to see it actually in real life. Because we are… I’m sorry, Mark. It’s very difficult in this world. Because there’s very little… Well, like to your point, we need the patterns to navigate. And what strikes me coming back is we’re so individualistic. It’s actually nauseating for me. Well, we’re trying to be responsible only for ourselves. And we’re not responsible only for ourselves. And other people aren’t responsible for us entirely. And that’s individualism. Yeah, there has to be the relationship, right? Right. They’re trying to separate themselves. Because that separates you from the responsibility. And that’s the thing. It’s so far off. Dr. McGilchrist made a really good point. He had this series that was actually free every second week. It was sponsored by his publishing company for his second book. He mentions several times the importance of everything being done locally, right? Because in a way, these YouTube things are local in a funny kind of sense. They can be. Well, they are local because you’re you and I’m me. And here we are in a place of some sort. In a sense, there’s something… You’re creating. Yeah, you’re creating a locale. Yeah, you are. Like whatever it is. And I don’t think it’s a hallucinatory one either. But go back. Because I think this idea of being responsible, because what you were doing when you were talking, you kept presenting different… Like they were queries. They were questions, right? That even speaks to it all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to address this question. Does responsibility vary in direct proportion to agency? No. I mean, no, because your level of responsibility is equal. But your level of agency is not. And that’s the problem. Because what happened… And you know this. You know this. Your outcomes are from your perspective random. Right? You go to the mailbox every day and whether or not you get mail, you’re still responsible for checking it. And if you can’t go to the mailbox, you’re still responsible for knowing if mail came in. Like it changes the nature of your implementation of responsibility. But your responsibility doesn’t change because it’s an abstraction. And a lot of this was, you know, for two it’s not an experiment. Problem number one is I didn’t do any notes all week. Even though I had the topic for the whole week. I didn’t do any notes all week. I did almost all my notes today right after I got home, which gave me like two whole hours to do notes. And a lot of this was, well, responsibility is so abstract. What am I going to do with it? So I had to be careful about how I was talking about it. Because I didn’t have the notes, which I thought was actually an advantage. And I’m talking about this abstraction. And so you’ve got these limitations on you. But your responsibility doesn’t change. Just your implementation of how to be responsible in a certain situation. And that is mediated by your agency. It’s mediated by your constraints. It’s mediated by all the rest of the world, too. That’s the key is that your responsibility is not something you can just reach out and grab and hold and understand. And it’s not stable. It changes over time. Hmm. What do you mean it’s not stable? When you’re a baby, you’re not really responsible for anything. Like if you’re responsible for anything, you’re not really responsible for anything. Like if you’re an adult, you’re kind of responsible for feeding yourself. When you’re a baby, you’re not responsible for feeding yourself. Oh, I see. I see. Okay, stages of your life. Okay. But not just stages of your life. I mean, look, if you drive to work every day and one day you get a flat tire, it changes all the time. It’s just not something that you can just instill. You might be responsible for telling somebody that you’ve got a flat tire, right? But you’re not responsible for the flat tire. Well, that’s a good question. I would like… I think we’re pretty responsible for things like flat tires, though, Mark. I think that’s the problem. We’re so relativistic, right? We don’t realize how responsible we are for that tire. We don’t take responsibility for everything, but the problem of the world right now is we’re taking wrong responsibility. Like if you’re taking responsibility for the climate and then expecting other people to take responsibility for the climate because you do, first of all, you’re lying to yourself. But second of all, now all of your responsibility meter is going towards the climate instead of getting a job. Not playing video games all day, right? That is a great point. Another one of your brilliant insights, right? So how it becomes parasitic. Wow! Responsibility is parasite. That is so interesting because that is what they’re doing. They’re like uber responsible, right? Now what’s that about, Mark? Yeah, well, I mean, this is about the hijacking of attention, right? And this is why it’s hard to get into the abstraction. So like, Jesse was a little upset. He was like, I thought you were going to take responsibility last week. And I was like, I can’t. I have to do this in a certain order. I need certain pieces. What was last week? Sorry. What was last week? Last week’s topic was about participation. Oh, okay. Right. Okay. So you need to understand that before you understand responsibility because the two are tied together, right? It’s in your action, your participation. That’s why I kept using the word, right? And that’s the issue is, you know, what is your level of participation and in that participation are you taking responsibility for participating? And what is your responsibility for participating? Because you have a limited participation. Like, maybe I can save the turtles on my property, but not the earth. It doesn’t seem controversial at all, does it? But if I’m focused on saving the earth, I’m also not focused on saving the turtles. It’s not that hard, right? And like one of the things I do to be extra responsible is, you know, and people have been like, oh, you know, you’ve got this, you’ve got that. And you should get rid of these ants with some poison. I’m not putting poison on my property. It’s not happening. Because I have a pond and I have birds. And birds are very sensitive to chemicals. And it’s not that I don’t use any poison ever, but I’m like super conservative with the use of chemicals on the property because the pond is 12 feet from the house and the pond brings all the wildlife that I like. And I’m not going to stop to poison everything around me and kill it all off. But this is fascinating. So this is perhaps an example of one of the virtues. And I don’t know, to me, you could go way back with this virtual responsibility, but how the virtues being perverted, right? With all the attention given, for example, to climate change, or all the attention being given to whatever it happens to be. So it’s, no, but it’s a really good clear example because it’s obviously something that people, I think most people would agree that we do bear a certain responsibility. It’s a perversion because you’re not supposed to pay attention. If you want to save the climate, you pay attention to your yard. You don’t save the climate by paying attention to the earth. Mainly because you can’t. So it’s moving, it’s making it abstract when it doesn’t. And that’s what Peterson’s on about. He’s on about not making it abstract. That’s his whole thing. If you move your participation into the abstract, it can be manipulated by somebody who plays in the abstract all the time. Because you’re dealing with theory then. I hate to say it, but yeah, your abstract theory is self-conscious. You’re in that realm, right? Right. And who’s good at abstract stuff? The academics. That’s why they’re trying to move you there. The false academics. I think we should call them false academics. That’s the realm of academia. Yeah, well, I know. You can be responsible for academics. Well, you can indeed. But a lot of them are fair. I mean, we’ve been listening to James Lindsay, I’m sorry. Well, yeah, yeah, but that’s our responsibility too. I mean, not mine. But it’s true because my father used to talk about what Jordan Peterson talks about. And the faculty at the University of Toronto, we’re talking about all the academics didn’t have, didn’t have, I won’t be rude, didn’t have the sense of responsibility and the courage to ever, ever stop what was obviously a ball going in the wrong direction. Why, why you don’t listen to experts? Experts are never responsible. Why you listen to leaders? Leaders are responsible. That’s not the only difference. I’m going to do it the whole thing on leadership. It’s coming. I was just going to say that, yeah. I’ve got the material. I’ve got to take the notes. I forgot to take the notes. It’s going to take me, maybe I’ll do it this weekend. I’ve just got to jot down all the notes. I had a conversation with somebody about this. And I was like, oh, OK, now I’ve got all the words again. So that’s the difference between those two things effectively. And I’m being irresponsible. So let me answer this. I’m using it to refer to who will experience consequences of my action. No, your responsibility is not about people. It’s about everything. It’s about the earth. It’s about you. It’s about nature. It’s about everything. It’s about you in the future, you in the past. Right? Like you have to be a good steward to your memories because you don’t, you don’t want to corrupt them because that could change your relationship in a bad way. Right. And Peterson has a lovely story about changing somebody’s relationship in a better way. She was sexually abused by her brother. And then he found out how old they were. It’s like maybe maybe, you know. And it was like, yeah, kids aren’t responsible in that way for that kind of behavior. And then problem solved. Right. Because she was assigning responsibility to a child that could only be assigned to an adult. And responsibility is the bridge between your actions and consequences and your place in the world. Yeah. I was going to say that. And if you change any one of those three variables, you can very easily pervert somebody either into being a robot, right? Into being a bad person, right? Into supporting bad behavior. And all three of those are unacceptable. And it’s, and it’s real easy. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of like, yeah. Is our reality then like chat GPT in fact, like, because, because why you’re you’re noticing certain things, but zillions of people aren’t. So does that mean that we’re already locked into this kind of nonsense? It’s I think so. I got it. Perceptually, I don’t know if, if, if we can see, I mean, yeah. What do you think, Mark? What do you think? I’m interested. Where do you think we are standing right now? Well, I think the problem is that fundamentally we have an intimacy crisis, right? We don’t understand the quality of relationships in our lives. And a bunch of people are told they can be individuals, which is a lot. You can’t be an individual. You’re not ever going to be an individual. Okay. If you were being an individual, you’d be living in a cave by yourself. You wouldn’t be listening to me. And I wouldn’t have to listen to you be stupid about individuality. Okay. It’s just, it’s that simple. You’re not an individual. You’ve never been an individual. You’re almost certainly not going to ever be an individual. That just isn’t a mode that humans can inhabit. Okay. So once you realize that it’s like, oh, well, then I have relationships to myself, to other people and to nature. The three frames, right? Video on my channel. When you, when you pay attention to those relationships, you notice that they have a quality. You sense that they have a quality. What is sense making? Sense making is the opposite of science. Science does not deal with the senses. Science deals with quantity and measurement. That’s what science deals with. It deals with material. It deals with that which is matter, right? Not that which matters, which is the quality. You’re sounding a bit like Anne McGilchrist here. I’m shocked. But anyway, you’re even using the same words, say I jokingly. Okay. Keep going. But it’s true. That’s the thing is that relationships have a quality and you sense that. You don’t measure that. You don’t like materialize it. You don’t manipulate it, right? You sense it. And that’s what sense making is. It’s understanding the quality of the relationships around you. So when people say, well, we have bad sense making, they mean we have bad intimacy with the world. And that’s what’s happening. Keep going. Come on, come on. What’s bad intimacy mean? Keep going. Bad intimacy means we’re not having quality relationships with the world. Right. Which goes back to my point about the people in my little community in Italy. Right. Because the quality of the relationships is sacred, like I said. So that’s intimacy. They’re paying attention to where they can help with the relationship because they care about their community. Yeah. Well, they care about themselves and each other. It’s just normal. They don’t care about themselves. They care about the community and the community cares about them. Then you don’t have to care about yourself. Right. Because everybody now cares about you. Right. And so you get that distributed cognition benefit. Right. Yeah. And boy, is it like if talk about distributed cognition benefit, like, oh, my gosh, like it’s it’s exponential. You need it because you outsource your sanity. So like you don’t even know if you’re sane without other people. You need that distributed cognition. It’s not optional. I almost think I wonder too, because this is a place where there are no cars. And so everybody has to walk and you see everybody because if you’re ever going to go anywhere, like literally if you exit your door, you’re going to be with other bodies. So you’re constantly with other bodies. And that’s that’s that in itself. That’s such it’s intimate. Right. That’s intimacy in the community. But it’s but it’s it’s not because it hasn’t been created. It hasn’t emerged. It’s just it’s just living. It’s without cars. If there’s nothing else more that that’s that’s unusual. It’s just very normal, actually. But because of that, you see people constantly. And there’s there’s these interactions. Right. Right. And there’s imitative behavior because you see how many other people are. You know, when I see it just struck me like and you can have some really old, weird fishermen, you know, with and oftentimes they were starving to death. A lot of the older guys, right. Years ago. And so they have misshapen bodies, literally like the fairytales. And you see these guys and you know what? And then you watch some young, really cool guy who’s 20 years old and the old misshapen fellows going over and helping showing them how to repair his boat properly because the young kid doesn’t know what the heck he’s doing. And boy, do they they both. It’s just beautiful and watch. But it’s all it’s all patterns that they’ve they’ve seen their their entire lives to your to your point. Right. But that is intimacy. Like the word is it’s a it’s where did you get that word from? Like how did that start that you use the word intimacy? It’s quite interesting. How did that start? Well, that was just me trying to explain stuff with a word that the problem for me is this is all this stuff is super clear. And I’m just like, you guys don’t see this really? Why are you writing your book? I thought if you the other day, you need to be writing your book. Really? No, no, come on. I know. I know. You don’t want to do it. Do you? You’d rather it’s hard. It’s hard to express stuff. I mean, that’s really the problem is locating what people are missing and then giving it to them in a way. Like I said, like Jesse wanted me to do responsibility before participation. I’m like, you actually can’t do that. Well, like it’s not that you can’t do it and it wouldn’t work. It’s just it. Really? You want to talk about participation first and then you want to talk about responsibility. Like, you know, discernment, judgment, action has to go in that order. And I had to talk about boundaries first. I didn’t have a chance. I’m not saying like I plan these out months in advance. No, right. I’m going with the zeitgeist because how you talk about participation versus action, for example, because the two are pretty. It’s just pretty heavily related. But the fact that I did them separately is important. Yeah, right. And I knew that like I knew that that was important, but I didn’t know that like six months ago. Like I didn’t or three months ago or, you know, five weeks ago like that. Yeah, you’re into it. And like you’re taking your contextualizing rights, whatever. I’m getting a huge amount of feedback. Right. I’m sure Joe said something today that just I was like, yes. And I talked about this. Right. He talked about rumination. And I was like, yes, rumination is important because rumination is related to integration. And that’s something that Manuel and I discovered when we were doing the verveky work with practice. Rumination. Rumination is what. Yeah. Go, go, go, go, go, go. Because you’re you’re walking by yourself in the woods and you’re thinking about whatever or maybe you’re not. Maybe you’re farming. Right. So some of the well, look, all of the best philosophers that I know that are alive are people that work. Yeah. Right. They work. Yeah. Like a lot of them live in the Midwest. And, you know, so my favorite smart person, his name is Jefferson. He’s a farmer. He’s not a farmer. But what he does is he works on equipment to to that helps to feed chickens basically. Wow. He travels all over the place. He lives out in western Tennessee and he comes all the way to Georgia and places like this. He’s all over the place. Right. He’s got a region and he just goes and checks on these machines and fixes them. And so he’s driving hours and hours. You know, and then things break and he has to drive out there and he’s got his tools and he can’t fly. Right. So he is. That’s a good line. That’s a good line. He has to take his tools with him. He can’t fly. That’s a good line, Mark. Write your song. No, but that’s a great line. He’s so well read because he listens to books in the car and then he thinks about these things. And I met him on Clubhouse, which is an amazing person. Right. And he just like he knows Van Du Klay and all this, too. But he he just talks about these things. And sometimes he just says something. He’s got this thick southern accent. It’s really it’s a brilliant accent. Sounds great. Right. But and he talks about these things. And he’ll like drop something like, well, yeah, in the in the Trojan War, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just I get angry and I’m like, you have no right to know that with your accent. So no, right. You know, I get all upset because I don’t I don’t read those books. I’m like, what are you even talking about? He’s you know, and if I look into it and I have before he’s right. Like, you know, that’s the thing. Like, yeah, they don’t these people think about these things and then they are able to communicate them. In a way that relates to you because of your common physical participation in the world. That’s so true. That’s you should come on. There’s there’s your there’s your part of your chapter just there. The way you articulated. No, but that’s perfect. Right. Well, thank you. I’m trying. It’s so perfect. And and and it’s and it’s so it’s very important what you’re saying. You I’ve always thought that, you know, Ethan and I are your cheerleaders. You’ve got things to say, Mark, you do. And so you saw the jurors endorsement of the channel, right, which I was just like, wow, surprised. Blew me away. Yeah, blew me away. I was beautiful. I feel really, really unworthy. I was like, well, but it was you know, the thing was, too, he really hit exactly what I was trying to do. And I was like so grateful that somebody actually understood exactly what I was trying to do. And I was like, OK, OK, somebody else. And it’s not surprising who it is either. Right. Fair enough. That’s the kind of person, you know, him or his brother would be the kind of people that would kind of get it immediately and be able to communicate it that way. And look, I mean, I’ve doubled my subscribers in two weeks because of that tweet. Yeah. Well, there you go. There you go. There you go. But it doesn’t surprise me because he he spends lots of time in nature. Right. Like you do. You have a fair bit of that in you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, for sure. But well, that there’s there’s I’m sorry to say, I mean, you might. And this is weird, but you’re not in the same woods, probably. But maybe you are like you’re very parallel kind of experiences that that. Yeah. Well, that changes you. And it what does it do? It kind of gets rid of a lot of the dross, maybe you’re you. What the grounding is important. Right. You can’t you can’t stand anywhere if you’re not grounded. And if all you’re doing all day is talking about abstract ideas and there’s nothing wrong with that, obviously, all the time. Right. But if that’s all you’re doing, then you’re floating up and you’re floating away. And, you know, Vanderkley talks about this right when when Jordan Hall talks about the Jordan Hall and John for Vicky float up there and somebody you bring them down and and Catherine, who ran the Thunder Bay event, talked about that, too. Like these guys are too floated trying to get them to come down. It’s like, yeah, you need some something grounded, inexperienced in participation with the world so that they can relate to it differently. And the problem with academics is that it takes you away from the ground, which is not a problem. If you’re Jefferson and you reground yourself like Jefferson’s like he’s like this, he’s got all these hobbies like the other for the people at work because they had a big work party. He was making whips. So he’s, you know, taking paracord and turning into whips and using different materials and experimenting with different materials to see which ones make the best whips inside. And I was just like, you know, I can’t do that. I was just like, you know, I can’t do that. This is crazy. You know, or or Adam over over an island. Adam was like, yeah, I’m going to make rosaries. So he’s sitting there tying knots with paracord and learning to make rosaries. And oh, yeah. And having to redo all the knots and stuff. And, you know, he was doing it while he was on Discord and talking to us. It was wonderful to see. But when you ground yourself like that, now you’re able to speak from a position lens and authority of experience because authority should come from experience. Right. Because then you’re responsible for the things you’re talking about. You didn’t read Karl Marx and parent his stuff. Look, deliberate strategy. I say this all the time. Deliberate strategy. I didn’t read the classics. I didn’t read the classics on purpose. I did not want to be parroting the the the Western canon. I didn’t want to. I wanted to know for myself if it’s correct. And then it just turns out the more I read, the more I go. And I’ll tell you, the big discovery for me has been I recently started reading Plato’s Republic because Danny, Texas Wisdom Community Channel, wanted to do that. And they all roped me into it. And I was like, all right, well, we’ll read the Republic. And Ethan, Ethan, of course, he’s part of my conspiracy there. Sent me a copy already. So I had one for I got it for Christmas. Wonderful gift. So I’m reading the Republic. And I’m like, these people who are talking about the Republic are irresponsible. And the reason why they’re irresponsible is because you’re not telling you the important parts of the book at all. And so I’ve already decided that what I’m going to do is I’m going to reread the Republic when we’re done with the book. And I’m going to go through book by book, because it’s separate into books, and point out, look at all this stuff that nobody ever talks about in the public. First of all, and I don’t know the ending, but I have it on good authority. It begins with a religious ceremony and it ends with a religious, you know, in a religious context. Peppered throughout the Republic, everywhere are references to religion and God all over the book. It’s all over the place. Nobody ever tells you this. Nobody talks about this. They talk about this. It’s also absurd on purpose. It’s rather deliberately and clearly absurd on purpose because the structure of the book is such that here’s a perfect world. And obviously, if this weren’t true, this would be true. It’s all binary dichotomies. All of it. The whole thing is hysterical, right? But when they can’t resolve it, they appeal to a god or a goddess to resolve it. Surely the goddess blah would just take care of that. And it’s like, wait, what did I just read? This is supposed to be like this great work of pure philosophy. And it’s just all over the place. Crazy. Wow. So there’s all this richness to it that we don’t know. Right. Well, and you know, people are like, oh, it’s a great book on politics. I have found one reference to the word politics in the book so far. And it wasn’t it wasn’t a reference directly to the point of the text. It was a reference as a side effect of something that happened as the result of having a city, which is right. In other words, the politics is a primary because, of course, the republic is not about politics and it’s not about government. It is explicitly about justice. It is not about any other thing. I don’t know why people don’t talk about this, but it’s vitally important that we understand that the republic is not talking about government or politics. It’s not like I said, I found one reference. There might be others. I’m only halfway through. It’s about justice. It’s about justice. That’s the whole purpose of the exercise is to discover justice. So they’re only building the city because they need to discover justice, because they start out with this stupid. It’s not stupid. They start out with this absurd idea. And Socrates, the character, immediately eviscerates everybody for saying you can’t measure justice on the scale of one person because what’s just to somebody is unjust to somebody. Like the two sides. And so you have to scale the argument up. And I have a video on scaling. I have to scale the argument up to another level, which is the level of the city. Wow. And all the arguments are made based on in order to talk about justice, you can’t talk about it at the scale of human to human. You have to talk about on the scale of a city. And then in the city, you have a hierarchy of participation. It’s explicit in the book. Like, I don’t understand why people don’t talk about this. The hierarchy of participation is what the city is about. And then how does justice manifest in everyone’s in a while so far halfway through they mentioned. Well, but this doesn’t work between cities. So they can’t when you scale up all the solutions we have here that work that don’t work at the lower level, but work at this level. Don’t work at this level up. Oh, that’s interesting. There’s the fractal nature of the universe right there in Plato talking about the justice. Why? Why is he maintaining? I’m really interested in that. So go a little bit further. So why? Why is he? Why is he keeping it at the city level per se? That you how do you see that? How do you understand that? Why is he doing that? Because you have to because it’s right in the beginning in the beginning. Well, it’s written like a play. That’s the other thing I find interesting. OK, OK. Actually written scene by scene. So one of the copies that we have that’s online is broken into chapters, not just books. And the chapters correspond to when certain characters are speaking. So once it once there’s a change in characters talking to Socrates, they call it a chapter. I’m like, oh, that’s actually that’s actually correct. That’s the way a play is laid out. And then I went, oh, this is a play. Oh, OK. Now it all makes sense. Like all of a sudden, the book makes sense to me. That is so fascinating that it’s that he’s that he’s the place he has his city. Then, wow. So what happens is in the beginning chapters, if you will, the first few characters that interface the youngins, right? What starts with the old people looking back, right? Oh, we used to be cool and now we’re old and whatever. Right. That’s cool. Right. Because it provides you all this contrast. Right. But the youngins are like, oh, it’s just is this because I, you know, if this happened to me, I would feel this way about it. And surely a man, if that happened to him, he would feel that way about it. And then Socrates goes, yeah, but what about the other people? And it’s like, oh, justice has to be balanced between people or measured between people. Right. This gets back to intimacy and quality. Right. Oh, there’s a quality to the relationship between you and the virtue and you and other people. And the virtue interacts differently with those other people. It has a different quality for them because the effect is different. And so how so we can’t we can’t square it on the level that you’re talking about. We really need to talk about a city. But again, what the jump? I mean, it’s the ultimate anti-individualist book. The jump is you can’t look at this from the perspective of a single person. That’s not going to work because a huge thing. So once you get out off of the individualist perspective, hierarchy is there. And now we’re back to Peterson. Peterson talks about hierarchy. It’s older than trees. Why? Well, because it is like that’s important. So what do you mean specifically? OK, when you need to describe hierarchy as it appears in Plato, what do you mean? Well, that’s the city. So in the city, he immediately starts talking about different classes of people. Oh, OK. OK. Right. Because he goes into the guardians and the king and right. He talks about it. Well, I think he’s working his way from the bottom up, although I might be wrong about that. But I think they kind of ignore the bottom. It’s like, yeah, there’s people, but whatever. Yes, some of them are cobblers and some of them. Some of them are Smiths and whatever. But anyway, let’s get to the guardians. It’s like, wait a minute. You’re kind of skipping over the lower classes here. But the guardians are like supposed to keep the city safe. It’s all a fantasy. It’s explicitly a fantasy. So we have this guardian class. And how do we control and build for guardians? How do we birth people such that they’ll become guardians? And the whole argument around guardians is an absurd argument. It’s explicitly absurd. They’re just talking about crazy things like, well, surely they can’t have mates that they know about because that would create friction within the class. Right. And they have to be pure, which means they have to be equal. And so men and women have to be equal, which means the women have to practice naked in the gym with the men. This is clearly absurd. If you read the text, it doesn’t take a lot of caution to read it this way. It’s absurd. It’s absolutely crazy. It’s bonkers. It’s nutso. And they’re poking fun at the whole thing. Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah. So, wow. And then you don’t know who the children are. So you’ve got to scramble them up. But then you have to make sure that those children don’t interbreed along the same genetic lines, which is remarkable that they’re talking about this in Plato’s book. They know all this already. They’ve already got Mendel’s genetics down. Right. It’s just not written down anywhere. But they had it. Like Mendel didn’t invent that stuff. He rediscovered it. And the Greeks already had it. So they’re going on about that. And then, of course, they always end up at this point where they have to admit, well, that’s not going to work. So we’re going to have to like, someone’s going to have to know and not tell. Right. Which is going to conflict not just with justice, but with honesty and truth. And so they already show this in the book. It’s already coming out by Book 5. It’s already quite clear that there are going to be these conflicts. But they’re only concerned with justice. So they don’t have to worry about truth. Truth can go out the window. Right. All the other virtues can go out the window because they’re just concerned with justice. And it’s really weird that people classify it the way they do. Wow. And why is he doing it? I mean, I kind of see a pattern there, all right. But what’s going on with him? What’s going on with Plato? What is he? Well, I think the purpose is actually literally the refutation of science. And their definition of science is totally different from ours. And I’m using that word deliberately, even though that’s not how it works. It’s a refutation of their conception of philosophy because science in the ancient Greek world is a subset of philosophy. Philosophies are ontologies. Right. That’s what they are in ancient Greece. And if you keep that model, which I have always had for some reason, and I don’t think I read. I mean, I know I didn’t read the Republic, but I don’t think I read this. So maybe I did. I can’t I can’t remember. But if you keep that model, the world becomes very easy to understand. OK, so there’s a philosophy stuff which is just about categorization and classification and quantity. And then there’s a religious stuff, which is not. It’s all the stuff that’s not. And the religious stuff is way more important and moves these other things. Right. And that’s the fight. The fight is the scientists want to move the world because they have control over the material and they get to play God in some sense. It’s like, no, because you’re a tiny being that was created into this thing that is so much bigger than you can’t you can’t even imagine how little you know about it. It’s not even an option to your limited brain to consider that you know nothing effectively. And that’s where the conflict is, because the scientists are like, no, we’re one experiment away. We’re always one experiment away. Always just one experiment away. You know, they were going to find that we’re so close to God and explain everything. And they found the stupid God particle. And now they’ve got 10 questions. It’s like, good job, guys. You took one question and turned it into 10. Is this progress? Really? Yeah, right. And it’s that bad. This is fascinating, though, this whole idea of justice that that’s the centerpiece of Plato. Well, the Republic anyway. But you need the utility of philosophy in the book. He’s saying philosophy only gets you here. And even if you had it and it was perfect, because everything they talk about is perfect. Surely a man, if he didn’t do this, would do this. It’s like, what? It’s all universal. It’s silly. It’s funny to read. It’s like, yeah, OK, dude, whatever. But then they knock it all down and they say, even if those conditions were met, it doesn’t work. Even if those conditions were met, we have to appeal to the gods. Even if those conditions were met, we’d have this whole one. And then you get all the way to the end. And like, we know some of the end, right? This always floored me because people would always get into these arguments. And I’m like, that’s the philosopher king argument. But Plato put that to bed. Even if you could do the philosopher king, even if you could, you can only do one ever. Because what happens is he can’t pick a successor. Right. So you can be a good leader or you can pick a good successor, but you can’t do both. You get one or the other, effectively is what Plato is saying. And I haven’t read the end of the book, but I already know the end. And then people get down this rabbit hole of, well, look, we have the perfect leader looks like this. And it’s like, OK, maybe. But let’s suppose you can find that and identify it correctly and put them in power and they’d implement power correctly. Right. And they write and and and and there’s all these conditions. They still can’t pick their successor. So then so then maybe your idea of leader is off. What do you think, Mark? Like this whole idea of leader that I don’t know. The is a hard one. The is a really, really hard one. Because I know it is a hard isn’t the word. You know, I I don’t know. Because, you know, to be quite honest, I I admire I mean, you can’t everybody admires Jordan Peterson. There’s no question. But I don’t know. You can see when it starts going off. Right. Well, you won’t leave, though. Right. Because he doesn’t want the responsibility. And like, fair enough. Like, if anybody knows about responsibility, it’s him. Right. He knows at least unconsciously. He’s well aware that’s unbearable. And it’s like leadership is a sacrifice. And to be a leader is to be the head. But the head doesn’t get to determine everything. And that’s where the problem comes in. There’s a conflict between being the head and and like the leader often isn’t the authority. That’s what people get. They think leadership and authority are the same thing. And they’re absolutely not the same thing. Well, that gets more complicated. Keep going. Like, wow. Yeah. Well, you need you need that. You need a head for the body. You need one. It’s not optional. Right. You need authority. It’s not optional. Authority has to be there. Right. It doesn’t. Leadership is spread out amongst all these pieces. And so the other thing you need is responsible agents within the system. Right. So somebody has to not only be responsible, but also hold others responsible. That’s why I put that in there. Right. Like, you have to hold the leader responsible so that the leader has consequences. And that they understand the consequences. Otherwise, they become an expert and experts have to talk about there’s no skin in the game. And skin in the game is the is the is the statement of taking responsibility. It’s the same statement. When to talk about skin in the game. Great book, by the way. Everybody should read all the books. Right. That’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about they have no responsibility because the consequences don’t go to them. And if the consequences don’t go to you, you’re not responsible. But that means you shouldn’t take an action because actions should should engender responsibility. Otherwise, it’s not a right action. It’s not a proper action in the world. And so you have to be responsible to and for the leader at the same time. And people don’t like they want to reduce everything. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. But this is the other like that. That’s the pleasure talks about that a lot. Right. That that. Or in the the relationship between the no, if you want, if you want the nobility and the peasants, you know, nobility and the peasants. I know, but you still see it when I went to a little Irish village. There was a Viscount actually. And and and he was he was Viscount of this entire area. And it was so interesting. Like, and you’d see him walking down the street and whatnot. And the little local people like they would they would rise to the occasion when he was nearby. And he would lower himself to to their interests and the farm and how were the sheep and whatever. Like it was just like even in very, very everyday ways. And you could see it still being instantiated there. It was amazing. You know, right. That that’s how that always worked. And we don’t understand that. I even noticed it when I was in Scotland recently. I actually met the Duke of Aftol, who was one of the greatest landowners in Great Britain. He happened he was working in the shop, Mark, of his pal of his castle in Ferrari. And there he was. Yeah. And so just to instantiate it all, I was very kind to him. So I said to him that I was looking for a book, a book to write. And so I could write. And guess what? He went all around the shop. The great Duke went all around the shop looking and spent a couple of minutes looking for me. And then he said, unfortunately, I don’t think we have it. So there you have it right there. That’s how that’s how that system always worked. So yeah. And his son is sons are the guides in the in the in in Ferrari. His sons, his lovely young men, you know, are working, showing guests around their home. And that’s so that’s still that pattern still there, which we don’t understand in Canada, because of course we don’t there’s no remnants of the ancient ways because they’re other than the First Nations. Right. So we yeah. Right. Right. And and it’s top down power from above with postmoderns and everyone’s bought into that. And it’s like that’s not the work. First of all, your definition of power is retarded. And it’s just wrong. And yeah, the Lindsay Peterson talk was good because it’s like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not it’s not power is control. It’s it’s what they’re talking about is power as control through force. That’s what they’re talking about. Postmodern always use power to mean control through force, which is way different, right? Because. Wow. Good point. Where’d you get that definition from? Write that down. I I will write it down. How’s that? Mark, you need to do your definitions. Come on. If Matthew Peugeot could write two books, you can do it. I’ve got my I’ve got my definitions in my videos. I know. But I will write that down right now. Power is control through postmoderns. How do you say it? How did you write it? Control through force, right? I was using control before, but it’s not control. Lindsay pointed that out. He said, oh, force. And I was like, oh, yeah, it’s control through force. That makes more sense because it doesn’t really work. That is so important because dear little Peter, son bless his heart with his brilliant mind. He really he uses the word, but he he doesn’t flesh it out enough, right? Do you know what I’m saying? And so it’s it kind of floats a bit because I don’t. I don’t like it. Yeah, I don’t like anybody’s definition of power. I think they’re all wrong. I said that in my video on power. Yeah, you guys are all wrong. Power is time, energy and attention. That’s it. That’s power. Everything else is not power. Because you have to direct your energy in order for it to be powerful. You can’t just dissipate it because then it’s not powerful. Right. And then time, obviously. Right. Because that’s part of that’s the different. There’s two dimensions of directing. This is why it’s orientation and not direction. There’s two directions of constraint in order to make your energy into power. One is time and the other is attention. Right. And so that you need the time, energy and attention to make the powers. But that means that all power and maybe not all if you’re a Christian, but all power is in persons. And that’s why you’re not an individual, because all individuals have power. And the thing is, what doesn’t have power is the structure. Right. Because if the federal government comes down with a mask mandate and nobody uses masks, then all they have, then they have no choice but to undo the mask mandate. Else the emperor has no clothes. And, you know, sometimes that takes 10 years like it did with prohibition. And sometimes it takes, you know, a month or two or whatever it was with masks. Right. And people don’t understand that relationship because, again, you’re responsible for obeying the leader, even when they’re wrong, and the leader is responsible for when they’re wrong. Like both. And you it’s a reciprocal relationships. It’s not like, oh, they’re responsible and I’m not. And it’s not like, oh, I’m responsible and they’re not. No, it’s all reciprocal. It’s all going from the top to the bottom, from the bottom to the top. Yeah. Continually. Just like this. Right. Like I always I don’t know what I don’t know what else to do with this. But that’s what it is to me. And that’s what you know, with this I count and the and the local people, that’s what it was. And they, you know, and the beautiful thing is the the local people bring they they did the Viscount a great favor because they brought him down to earth like you and nature and that’s your nature. Like they actually provided a great gift for this poor little Viscount who otherwise is going to float away into Never Neverland like the emperor with no clothes. So they’re doing they’re actually doing a great service as he is doing a great service. That’s so beautiful. That’s always the complaint from people is, oh, they don’t understand our plight. They don’t know us. They don’t come to the village. They don’t write. That’s always their complaint about the elite. Always. It’s the same complaint all the time. It’s never it’s never really any different. And sometimes it’s valid. And maybe most of the time it’s valid, but sometimes it’s not valid. But I think, yeah, there’s, you know, and it’s never been my experience. Actually, I find the people who are truly great, great individuals, they understand. It’s very strange. It’s very odd that you you would meet somebody who who is who has attained something that they don’t understand. You know, the the ducks or whatever the people that doesn’t happen because it’s all connected. So, of course, they understand. I mean, you can’t you can’t be you can’t have achieved anything if you don’t understand this piece. You’re lost. You’re lost. I mean, you might be OK for a time, but that passes away quickly enough. So I think that your authority comes from your grounding. And so you lose your authority when you float away. And then eventually, I mean, people still may listen to you just because they’re stuck in that pattern of listening or or or if you believe it’s top down. Power from above. You’re stuck in that pattern. And that’s not a good pattern to be stuck in because it’s not true enough. Right. It may be beautiful. It may be beautiful. Right. It may seem good. Do you really know what goodness is? Have you taken responsibility for your moral and ethical stance in the world? If you’re not grounded, you can’t. Exactly. But that’s another important statement that you just made. Your authority comes from your grounding because that’s absolutely critical because that’s one of the other. I’m sorry to go on, but I do listen to Peterson so often and I deserve to be critical. And he he uses the word even Jonathan overuses the word hierarchy, in my opinion, without amplifying it enough for people. They don’t. Right. Right. They take it for granted and they don’t really show people where the hierarchy is all around. Like what they’re talking about. They’re not. They’re not doing what you and Matthew Pajot do, which is fleshing everything out and adding all the richness to it. And I think that I mean, so that’s a problem. That’s a problem. And it is fleshing it out and getting the richness in there. And yeah, like you’re going to reach out to mature at some point. You need to do the horizontal. You really I would I I would love to see you and you and Matthew in a conversation. I think we did this. Did you see his conspiracy theory diagram thing? Oh, my God. Mind blowing. I’m like, yes, this is great. Mind blowing. See, that would make a great topic for us, although I got to ask him about a particular page in his book first. But but yeah, I would I would do what I would do is I would talk to him offline first for like however long I could get and then see if we could do a video on his conspiracy thing. Because I got like three videos on conspiracy. So there’s so much in that diagram. Oh, my. You could just meditate on that for the rest of your life. That diagram is fantastic. I was like, it’s not even it’s not even possible. Right. I don’t know. I don’t do agree. Mark. It’s not possible. He’s all his stuff is so deep because he’s at that late. Right. He sees the practicality and he’s just got it down. And I’m like, yeah, he’s also you know what I love about about him so much. Well, he reminds me of my people on my little Italian island. He’s paired everything down. And so that’s just someone on the outside that might look might look too paired, you might say. But but therein lies the secret, right? Because he’s he’s actually he’s doing what John for safety talks about, which is embodying embodying the patterns. And he’s he’s right. There’s no question. And so so he’s get he’s like the people I know there that they get rid of everything else. And so when you do that, you have clarity. You’re just like, well, where’s even, you know, yeah, he’s he he he understands. I would love to see him on my Italian island. Oh, my gosh. Like, my old people like that would be so cool. That would be because are you you would you would work to my mark. You would work too, because I think you know, one thing that you you both understand to is that and and in the Gilchrist as well is the importance of fleshing out what we’re talking about. When you say words like you just defined, you just defined the way people talk about power. Right. Like you. Yeah, that is critically important now because we’re using all these words and they have zero content or they have so much content that doesn’t make any sense. Like exactly conflicting content. Right. Like we are like that. You remove the context because postmodernism removes the content. Who somebody said this recently, it might have been Lindsay, but I forget who. But it might have been Peterson. I forget who said it. But they basically what they said was the postmoderns removed the grand narrative until they have the one they want. And once they get the narrative they want, they stick to that one. And that’s the one they use. And I was like, oh, yeah, that’s that’s a really good way to think about it, because you can’t get rid of grand narrative. Right. Because I keep telling people this. You get rid of the narrative on top. And what do you have? Another narrative on top. Now you have a new grand narrative. It’s a trick. Right. You can get rid of grand narrative. Can you can you really? Are you sure about that? Because there’s a hierarchy of narratives. So when you get rid of the one on top, you still have one on top. The top and this doesn’t go away. It’s always there, you might say. Well, right. Well, and what are they doing? Right. When you do that, you’re unconsciously pointing at equality. You’re saying, oh, there’s a grand narrative. We’re going to get rid of that because it’s at the top. So we’re going to lop the head off literally. Yes. That’s what they’re saying. And it’s like and then we’ll all be equal. Yeah, they’re flattening everything down. Right. Right. But then what happens to you unconsciously is you go, oh, OK, well, then my interpretation of Moby Dick is the same as everybody else’s interpretation of Moby Dick. Why shouldn’t I privilege mine? Like you kind of have to at that point because you can’t have somebody else’s perspective. So now you’re stuck in your perspective and you’re in charge. That’s another brilliant insight. You need to write that one down right there, too, because that’s also absolutely true. You’re you are stuck in your own perspective. Necessarily like that’s the lie of this individualism is a tricky monster as well. There’s a truth to it, right? There’s a bloody truth. Because you have a perspective. Yeah. And we’re unique. And we have a context. And we have a moving context. This is a movie, not like not like like photos. Right. That might be in my postmodern video because I have a video on postmodernism. I think I think all of that’s in there. But maybe did you hear it all my videos? Yeah, well, I can’t keep up with everybody. It just gets to be too much. But I’m James Lindsay. Did you hear him at the United Nations? Did you listen to that? No, I haven’t heard that. Oh, must must. It was that is for everybody is is a must listen because he he traces he he understands he he Peterson sees the patterns. But James Lindsay with his I guess it’s his his way his brain works. He’s able to to read like you do. He’s able to to clarify to zero in and then just shine a spotlight and explain like it’s so some the little point becomes like this. Right. He really understands how we got where we got right. He’s articulate and well researched. And that’s those are those are deadly skills, according to Peterson. Articulation and well researched. Yeah. Well, he’s brilliantly researched. And I don’t know. I don’t know how he’s managed to nail it the way he has. But Francis Schaeffer traced traced the evolution of thought from the 50s, exactly like James Lindsay. I could eat my hat if I’m wrong, because, yeah, he traced it right back to the same characters. This Mercuse guy. Yeah. So I’m fast. James Lindsay. And he understands Hagle in a way exactly. He talks about Hagle exactly like Schaeffer did. He matches perfectly with Francis Schaeffer’s thinking, actually, which is for me, it’s really exciting to watch this because this is like, yeah, 50 years later, you can read. You can reach Schaeffer wasn’t an academic, though. He was right. He was a read. He was he was he talked to people. He was an amazing listener, just a phenomenal listener. It was very much like, you know, when you went to La Brea, it was very much like this. It was it was conversations where people were able to, you know, and and and it was I what was that all. So that was interesting, too, because but then once again, if you’re, you know, a conversation, then you you have that, you know, it’s not just the two individuals. Right. Yeah, it’s well worth watching that James James Lindsay was brilliant in that. And it’s just that there’s so much content to it. To me, it’s the pivotal one. And he talked about that right with Jordan Peterson the other day. What did you I just thought the energy between the two of them was phenomenal. Yeah. Peterson was interrupting too much towards the end and I kept yelling at the screen. But yeah, I was like, stop interrupting him. He’s on a roll. Leave him alone. Stop. I know. I don’t I guess I guess that’s just because he’s doing so much right. I bet he does that. Well, he’s he’s trying to make these connections. And you really see this in his in that first talk that he had in a long time with Vickie that everybody did the psychedelic mushroom talk or whatever that that whole talk. That was actually a really good talk. I did a breakdown of that with Karen Wong on the Meeting Code channel. Oh, extremely difficult talk because what Peterson was doing is that John Verbecky is one of the only people that can answer Peterson’s questions about whether or not he’s right about postmodernism. And the reason why he’s the only one is not just because of his depth of knowledge, which is not the best in the world, but it’s pretty good. But also because he’s a willing participant who respects Peterson’s work. And that’s like, you know, like, I can’t ask certain people, hey, why would you think of my monologue? Because I know that they’re just going to say it was good. Right. But some people will be brutally honest with me. Those are the people. That’s the feedback I value the most is they say, well, it was it was good. It was maybe it was better than anyone you did before. But you screwed up here, here and here. Oh, good. Because that’s what I want. I don’t want I don’t want only praise, although I’ll get some praise. It’s always good. But I want I want the negative feedback. So I know, oh, OK, I need to adjust. This is where I’m missing people. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that was the thing about that conversation. Peterson knows that Verbecky can answer. And so a lot of that conversation was actually him just trying to browbeat Verbecky and answering very simple, easy questions. Absolutely. Verbecky didn’t want to answer because he didn’t like the answers he had to give because he doesn’t want Peterson to be right about something. He doesn’t want Peterson to be right about some of these things. And the thing with Lindsay is Lindsay’s like, no, dude, I got you. I came to the same conclusion from a completely different path. Right. That’s why Peterson was interrupting. Wait a minute. What about this connection? And Lindsay’s like, oh, I finished my point. You know, yeah, I don’t know why Jordan Peterson does that because I think I think that’s why you can’t stay on a path for four seconds. Jennifer Moth is teaching because I’m like that too as a teacher, right? Like you’re in that modus where you always have to be directing things because that’s your job when you’re at the front. You’re there, right? And so I think you just get in this. But the way he teaches is in flow, and he actually says this in Maps of Meaning a couple of times in the different Maps of Meaning lectures. He gets really far out on the Branch, and then he goes, where was I? I mean he actually says this where what oh right and sometimes he misses it sometimes he can’t get back Yeah, then he ties it back together right which is a trick that I do. I mean this is why I like it I’m like oh, I know that trick. I do that. You know. Oh, I know that trick. I do that right there was Kathy Newman Kathy Newman it was like nobody ever does this except me like I never knew anybody else could even do that I was like nobody can do that except me. Nope Peterson does it better than I do. I’m like oh fair enough Like this is good stuff, but also and I do it’s one of these days I’m gonna find a way I don’t want to know what he learned at Harvard because I was in Harvard you know in that area at the same time like I used to hang out in Harvard Square and A lot of the stuff he talks about like devil takes the hindmost and fair enough Those are all things that I’ve been saying for years So I’m like did we both get them from New England or did he get them from Canada because he might have I don’t know Like I don’t I don’t have any way to tell right so I’d love to find out one of these days Maybe I’ll find out it’s like the only question I have for him is really around that That’s it. That’s all I want to know out of them Yeah, yeah, because I noticed that too with James Lindsay. There was there were some interruptions there I was really really following and then yeah, that was it Peterson’s always drawing these connections to five different things and so he gets caught up in trying to validate those connections in the moment And that’s why he gets lost and interrupts people well, and I also think he doesn’t want to lose something, right? He doesn’t want to lose whatever he can catch inside of a thread Yeah, he’s got something and he does and then and sometimes you can kind of tell that that that that’s happened But then there’s nothing else right and so he kind of has to fill in with his typical Stories that he talks about all the time and and you go. Oh dear. Do we really have to listen to this one again? Right. Yeah, but he’s making new connections when he’s telling those stories, right? That’s the interesting part. But yeah Because what he’s doing with those stories, he’s given himself time Right. He’s actually giving himself time knows Yeah, but he knows there’s a connection he does looking for it’s almost like what would you call that? He’s almost like stalking that you know as a hunter like he’s he’s it’s it’s not really what it appears to be It’s not that it’s not it’s not what it appears at all I think it’s it’s the way his brain is what he’s just he’s kind of trying to put down a standing stone, right? That’s a standing stone. But he’s also ahead like he already knows what he’s gonna say and then he’s like, alright I’ve already gotten to the end of that argument. So I want to go this way because I don’t want to lose it Yeah, but Lindsay surprised him a fair bit. I thought we didn’t see Lindsay came out so he’s But Lindsay knows all this research about the postmoderns and traces it all the way back and Peterson never did that research I mean that’s why the ricky conversation happened the way it did and it’s inscrutable. I mean, it’s almost not understandable by humans, right? It’s such a weird conversation and then the subsequent ones were much more down to earth because he was doing something different, right? He was no longer trying to Validate his idea and he said it in the Lindsay conversation Look, I have this idea and nobody will engage with it seriously about postmodernism and Marxism And I’m just asking the question because I could be wrong. I don’t know right and he says nobody will engage right? Right, and then here’s Lindsay go no, no, you’re absolutely dead. Correct about all this. Here’s the history Yeah, so so so Peterson had the had the the the the concept if you like But he didn’t have the research that’s exactly right. Thank you for saying that because that that’s exactly what’s happening there Yeah, yeah, and he said a lot of flack for saying that in fact, who was that? Maybe it was even pageau was criticizing that stance that he took. Oh, yeah. And yeah With Jonathan is what he’s trying to he’s trying to redeem postmodernism and I’m like, yeah, it’s I’m a heart No, I’ve got a video on postmodernism Why come on help you know what there’s something There’s a I hate to say it. Oh my gosh I realize but but there’s something about I think I wrote this down because I write critical comments on I feel badly I do it but I write critical comments underneath if I want to because that’s that’s because I’m thinking I need to write it down And oftentimes I erase them later if I think oh nobody’s gonna get it because everybody’s saying oh, that was great Dr. Peterson and we’re praying for you and you’re the amazing and then there’s me and so sometimes I think okay cool it But there’s something in Jonathan and maybe you know what it is that resembles that parallels for baking I Can see there’s some kind I don’t even I can’t put my finger on it But there’s something where he gets law. I don’t even look at me the Protestant evangelical need to redeem without without Redeem people who aren’t asking for it Like it’s just this weird thing that everybody wants to redeem people aren’t even asking for redemption Which I think is invalid like I don’t think First of all, it’s not your job to redeem people and second of all you can’t redeem somebody who doesn’t repent And I think that’s a big problem And I think it’s a bigger problem when yeah wrong is correct in Canada where they’re just to to they’ve got this niceness thing Right with it. They’re always trying to be nice at all costs. I know you can you see that any Do you see that with Jonathan though and John yeah, I see the niceness all the time even Peterson even Peterson that’s Even the French Canadians are a little too nice and But you’ll notice Matthew pageau it’s not that he isn’t nice but he doesn’t have that niceness He doesn’t have that whatever that is that the rest have Yeah, because he’s too well grounded. I mean, I think that’s the difference. He’s so well grounded Just like no no my ground is here and here’s where I’m standing and that’s that right? Yeah, that’s that’s the thing everybody complains about with me They’re like you can’t know that and I’m like, how do you know what I can’t know and I stand on this ground and look I mean, I’m not I’m not claiming that all my stances are correct or anything, but you gotta bring the goods like, you know Fair enough. Maybe I’m wrong, but you have to bring the good You can’t just say that I’m wrong and go and therefore that’s not gonna work. You’ve got to prove it Okay, I want to know what you think of the page over Vicky relationship Like what is going do you see what’s happening there? Because I’m not sure I do it seems to me that John’s they do they do really help each other with their thinking somehow, but I can’t quite figure it all out well, I think Jonathan and Van der Kley are Trying to redeem John and and and bring him into the church. I think that’s all they’re trying to do and the problem is Jonathan knows full well where verveky stuck and how Yeah, yeah, he definitely know he in total control a lot of these conversations. He has especially lately He’s in total control like the most amazing thing I ever saw In these in this sphere right in the sphere of conversations was the one that that Vervey key did with Peugeot and Jordan Hall was there and the thing that was so amazing about it Okay was Jordan Hall is usually so floaty and so ridiculous and so abstract that you can’t understand the thing He says and he’s basically a sorcerer and like fair enough, right but Peugeot Put him in his place and he didn’t talk throughout the whole thing practically My amazing and I was like you got you got Jordan Hall to shut up. That’s amazing Because When he when he goes there you can’t follow the guy he’s too floaty, you know And he doesn’t have a point. I’m sorry. I mean he may think he’s smart or whatever. That’s not my definition smart He he just says a lot of abstract words and strings them together and sounds really good He’s but he’s basically an articulate idiot. He means he’s making nonsense Statements and abstractions that don’t mean anything. It’s Sally Joe’s been calling it Verbal impressionism, which I think is correct, right? It’s I know I thought that was so brilliant Sally is freaking brilliant That’s Brilliant and verbecky gets drawn into it because you know, and I think because you know gets drawn into it too because they’re beauty people They’re like, oh, you know, it’s gonna save the world beauty or truth beauty or truth and I’m like, what about goodness guys? How come nobody talks about good? I see exactly Right, that’s my point about Jonathan that I can see that I can see It is that is true and it makes it it’s floaty then it’s it’s it’s yeah It is floaty because and this is Sally Joe’s point again, right? She says a military parade is beautiful It’s like yeah, it is Look look the Nuremberg rally Beautiful really is it’s very enticing I’ve said it before you watch it don’t speak German and don’t have subtitles on so you don’t know What’s what’s being said you watch that you tell me if that doesn’t move you? I think the answer is that’s gonna move you and you’re gonna get Completely terrified by how it moves you in the same way that Peterson tried So I when Peter was when when I saw that’s a meeting I was like he’s this guy’s so right He has no idea how right he is because he didn’t make that point because that’s the real point That’s the real the real point is forget about but we’ll just throw out the fact that hit the save German entirely We’ll just throw that out. Just watch that damn rally because it’s out there watch that rally and and and Pay attention to how you feel While you’re watching that rally and make sure you don’t understand a word He’s saying put the volume off with although the volume helps because the tonal enchantment is there, too You you will be drawn you will definitely be drawn There’s no freaking question about it because it is beautiful and beauty attracts us But not all beauty is good and not all beauty is true And when you’re focused on one or the other or even if you’re only focused on those two that doesn’t work We need to be focused on the good because everything that’s true isn’t isn’t beautiful and it isn’t good and it isn’t even important Like there are a lot of true things that just don’t matter to the world at all that you shouldn’t care about Yeah, so but but it’s interesting because Jonathan comes from that evangelical background right and now he’s orthodox So he’s kind of he it it kind of doesn’t connect sometimes, right? You can he’ll say all most of the time it does but then all of a sudden if I think maybe when he’s more tired Or what I’m not sure but if he’ll he just he just jumps into one or the other and that’s it’s all right, right, right Right. Well, it’s it’s a that must be a hard balance and and like part of my advantage is I was never in a those clubs so There’s no religious influence because I just wasn’t involved in any kind of religious stuff. So You know, I’m seeing this stuff from a different perspective entirely What do you think so are you going to the Spencer Claven Paul Vanderclay um The the weekend isn’t that I don’t think about it first time I’ve heard of it It’s um, it’s in Washington DC and July 29th Maybe I’ll go I don’t know. Come on. Come on. I’m going just you know, Justine No, it’s and then it oh I thought you would know her because I thought she was on the discord like I thought she’d been there for a long time but maybe not just You know Um, anyway, okay. So she and I are going because I thought it’s I just thought it sounded really interesting and what’s this facing? Michael Martin’s gonna be there. So that’s gonna be crazy. I’d love Yeah, yeah, but the Disagreements with him, but I actually I like him a lot. I comment on Twitter all the time How interesting is that gonna be like that’s gonna be a really interesting weekend I am It’s not anything you should go get close to you. Come on. How far away is that? It’s about seven hours six hours depending upon what part father Eric’s over there. So I don’t know if he knows about it What’s it? I’m trying to remember what it’s called. But yeah, it sounded like a great Oh, you know who’s you know, who’s arranged that is Marcus of Mark Christ I went to the one in Dublin actually with Pajot and Paul Kingsnorth and Martin Shaw. It was okay nominally interesting That do you know Marcus? Have you listened to any of it? He had Bernardo Castro upon there He gets some really interesting people and he just lets them go and so yeah, he’s quite he’s quite innovative You know like to organize these three people together Yeah, no, that sounds like a good idea I’m trying to remember she’s she said but I think I just thought it sounded really cool and I’ve never been to Washington DC I don’t know how much I have a chance to see things but yeah I mean I you got to go to Washington DC once in your life. Don’t you DC is cool? Yeah, I’ve been there Yeah, there’s a particular church. I keep father and father Eric about me. There’s a small church that’s flying butcher supports and somewhere outside of DC Where is he? Where is father Eric? He’s the father of Eric Where is he where is father Eric he’s he is in DC taking Learning about Canon law so that he can be a Canon lawyer apparently and that’s a summer program So he’s not in it’s funny. He’s missing North Dakota in the best season. Oh That’s cruel that’s just cruel Um, yeah, so it’s I’m trying to remember oh, yeah, it’s called Christ in community and renewing culture Yeah, it’s I guess if you Google more Christ because he has a YouTube channel and he’s Irish But he gets some really cool. He had Pajol and Bernardo Caster in a conversation. It was it was excellent It was really excellent. You know Bernardo Caster at all Yeah There’s a bunch of sciencey guys with they say the weirdest things on Twitter and I’m always like what is wrong with you Like you guys should pick up one philosophy book of any kind ever and read it Like you guys are just like kids are always like they’re always like well, there’s this scientific question I mean this philosophical question has been talked about for thousands of years Like what do you where why do you think this is new very confused? I’m always confused by these people Yeah, you should go mark it’ll be I just find these it’s really I don’t know how to explain it Well, it’s better to be in person right then then online. That’s for sure. So Well, yeah, it was um, it was amazing. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, we’ll see if I if I have money for gas and Oh It’s nothing good this this has been a terrible couple of weeks like what the hell’s going on I Weird things are happening and then I found out today that the Canadian banks all screwed up a bunch of paychecks So what happened to me was I made a payment on my insurance for my car my house Back in the beginning of June and then I find out the other day that that payment never went through They told me it did and then they called me like a week and a half later Or maybe it’s been two weeks. I don’t know a week and a half I guess and they’re like, oh by the way, your payment never went through and I was like What are you talking? So now I have to check everything because are you sure it can go through? Does my credit card company know that you know, like all right, and then it yeah It’s just like and I’m like, what are you talking? How did this happen? Like how is it that it took you a week and a half to find this? What is going on and then the Canadian system collapses? Apparently they had a big and I’m just like oh and there’s a bunch of other little things like that and I’m like This is not good, this is really not good So I’ve been I’ve been over here like we gotta get some chickens on the property I agree and go go eat egg chickens carrots, you know the grows. Yeah Like I’m really serious about this like We’re we’re cleaning we’re gonna clear off a bunch of the trees over here and the high spot of my land and yep We’re gonna do we’re gonna do chickens. We’re gonna grow some stuff at scale because I have enough land to do that So yeah, no, that’s happening. That’s totally happening. Yeah, I’ve been I’ve been in a panic since since I saw that Yeah Good Rightfully so well in somebody I forget who I was watching Oh was this guy said is this guy named Scotty Kilmer who does car stuff and I like cars He does this these little shorts on cars and he did a whole live stream and he opened it with With the banks are gonna crash and because it’s the fact that they don’t have your money is gonna come out I’m like you’re a car guy Why are you talking about this? but like now everybody’s talking about this all at once and I was just like What is going on? Like why did this pop up in the zeitgeist? but I think it’s because everyone else is seeing breakdowns in payments and I remember years ago years ago in in the tech crash of was it 2001 my buddy owned a company and he was doing business with one of the big internet providers and They they had gotten sold to a newer company so this company buys them and they kept getting his bill wrong and he’s like he told me he said mark it’s a contract and Contracted to pay the same amount every month for three years. It’s a contract The bill doesn’t change it doesn’t ever supposed to change and they can’t build me correctly Yeah, yeah said I got to get out of this. I can’t deal with this So he did he got out of the contract that company was bankrupt in six months That’s not a coincidence like if you can’t bill you’re not gonna have a corporation Yeah, but our banks here you can see there’s a lot of corruption in our banks here I don’t I don’t know if you have to similar have similar problem, but there’s all this pay over for people These products that you don’t need 2008 yeah, yeah We’ve got little clerks little replace anybody They didn’t look you could make an argument for bailing of the banks. I’m not for it I think they should have just lost all the money because they have the money to lose You know what I mean? Like it’s not that hard. You can’t the poor people can’t lose the money They don’t have the money. You can’t lose them You don’t have right but but fine bail them out, but then fire everybody like what is wrong? Like why would you until that talks about this? You don’t keep the pilot who crashed a plane in charge of the plane he crashed a plane Corruptions in there’s people don’t understand that everywhere I go I try to explain to people but people don’t see understand Canada Canada is full of corruption. It’s it’s like the institutions are just rotten to the core and people don’t like all these Nice people up here. It’s there’s this weird disconnect at least you Americans You just you just talk about way you see things but up here people don’t it’s they’re quite vacuous actually It’s hard to get a good conversation going with a Canadian You know, there’s a yeah, if you have a good lifestyle if you have a nice lifestyle You know, you’ve got enough money that you can kind of keep yourself distracted. There’s nothing there You’re not gonna have any any conversation There’s problems here I mean the lawsuits I’ve been through were just a rack like we don’t justice doesn’t exist our legal system is entirely destroyed It just doesn’t work at all There’s a big case down here in South Carolina that’s actually gonna help me somewhat I think called the Murtaugh case where this attorney who’s totally ridiculously corrupt murdered his family and And and and they finally got him through the court system, but in the process they’ve on you know Taking taking the drapes back on all these legal things that are not cool with the system So that’s helping me because I’m suing an attorney You know now it’s evident from the deposition that you know, there’s something going on. That’s not just what it appears It’s a lot deeper and wow so that story shining a light on your story Right. Hopefully hopefully it’ll play to my favor. We got more work to do but yeah, there’s a lot of stuff going on and Like things are really coming apart at the seams in that area I mean the moral hazard of 2008 was real and and not really broke everything and and we could have fixed it but six years later a bunch of stuff happened in 2014 and I’ve got to sit down and make a list a Bunch of stuff happened in 2014 and broke everything 2014 was really the Kairos moment for sure That’s when gamergate happened and Carl Benjamin made all the predictions that have come true And he made them on YouTube there there you can go look at them there from 2014 or 2015 Where he said gamergate is not gamergate Everything about gamergate is coming to you and he was right. Well, yeah, yeah Everything he said happened exactly the way he said and it spread to everything He said this is not about a few gamers in their basement, you know, he said no, this is happen This is gonna happen everywhere and you know dead right about that That’s why he has a successful news organization in England that he’s self-funded Despite being the most demonetized person on the internet Wow It’s amazing. It’s an amazing story. It’s a miracle story. It really is. Yeah, but way Genius these guys see they they’re seeing that they and they understand the basic pattern of what you just described Like if there’s a point there’s it it it’s there It’s yeah the patterns right? Yeah, and they they’re really manifesting. I got in on the pattern Yeah, I think if you I think if you’ve had an extraordinary experience, which in whatever way Takes away all the distractions Then you when things you know, it’s gonna manifest itself in In this world in which we live today You’re gonna get made your manifestation of what you know to be true, even though you’re the only one that knows it Right well and that and that’s the thing like you have to know enough about programming and Then try chat GPT with programming to actually know like you have to know how to set up a test To know whether or not the thing is good or bad, right? And it’s like well, that’s just that’s my field like, you know, that is my feet That is something that you know, I’m not like I’m not an expert at software engineering I’m like Peterson in the top one I know way more about software engineering than almost anybody like I know a lot I’ve studied everything about it like forget about well research I’m not only well research but like I was there for a bunch of stuff No, it’s like oh no I know where this came from and I know why this happened and I know what started I Hundred and I’ve been at the startups and I’ve written code and I’ve managed large software development teams and like so all of this stuff is like no no and It’s funny because I talked to her bake you about this Thunder Bay I said part of the problem is that I saw the meaning crisis stuff unfold in the software industry it already happened there and I explained some of it to Vanderklaai when we drove over to paintball because I drove him over to paintball and He got it right away. He said well, you can’t do that And I’m like, there you go So he’s able to explain this relatively complex software problem in such a way that he was like well that that’s obviously not gonna work And I’m like, yes, and that’s why software today is terrible. So There are ways to do it Yeah, wow, but it’s hard it’s it’s hard to do though, right? I mean that’s my other channel my personal channel That’s what I do I link in all the software stuff and try to link it into meaning crisis and with varying degrees of success I’m sure but but that’s just my experimental place, you know, I don’t I don’t pay attention to lighting and sound I don’t I don’t I don’t do the board. I don’t do any of that I just like let’s let’s go and rant about something like they’re all rants. They’re all off the top of my head But so so you can see Can you see the lines then? I mean, oh that’s precise for you. Wow. I see all of it Really oh it’s torturous because I just watched the train wreck Yeah, and then you see oh well surprise surprise Surprise. Well, that’s the problem. Everybody else’s is like, huh? Did you see that? And I’m like, well, yeah I saw it like a week ago Like I don’t like I don’t like well like the banking thing that like Canada today like, you know I’m like, whoa I saw that coming because that happened to me and I found out about it over these past two weeks I’ve been seeing it and I’m like, what is it? Why are all these billing problems? Billing is easy like it’s very regular procedural. Nobody should get it wrong And yet everyone’s screwing up their billing all at once all at the same time and I’m like, oh no This is not you can’t run an economy this way. Like that’s gonna be a real problem I hear you and it’s hard to argue It’s not deliberate with the fake news virus scam demic and stuff like that Where clearly people are trying to crash the economy and all for different reasons fair enough It’s not a cabal of people who want the same thing But they all want the economy crash because they want a different outcome from that, you know And that’s where people get confused It’s easy to get conspiratorial when you’ve got Five different groups of people who want to crash the economy for different reasons because they all want to crash the economy So they look like they’re cooperating even when actually they’re just gonna fight once once the ashes are Car evidence Yeah Things yeah for sure though. You can you can sense it right the chaos that the deliberate creation well, that’s the problem people don’t know the difference between chaos and order and No, and and that’s why they’re like vervekis in the emergence is good camp. Oh things emerge and I’m like well But emerge chaos does emergence Like emergence isn’t order kind of like it can be but it’s not order because order is emanation comes from above Yeah with his because he’s so he’s so aware in some ways I just My mind they fool they fool people right because I know emanations absolutely important But let me talk for 20 minutes about emergence with you and it’s like whoa. Whoa timeout boy timeout Hold on a second. Let’s talk about emanation first and then we’ll talk about emergence Let’s give them equal time, but they don’t give them equal time and it’s like for Vicky’s AI talk was just like mind-blowing I’m like first of all, you’re just technically wrong about almost everything you stated about AI is I didn’t listen. I didn’t even I had a feeling that he was way off like I Don’t even know anything But I’m listening up to McGill Chris and what he says about it and I trust McGill Chris actually and so I didn’t I didn’t bother listening to it Right, but but the interesting thing Elizabeth is he says brilliant things in the middle of it have nothing to do with AI I like he makes this statement that is absolutely mind-boggling Lee important Says religion is the way we deal with hierarchy that we’re not at the top of Yes This has nothing to do with AI But yes, so people hear that and then all this is brilliant And I like I had a different a whole bunch of different people tell me oh That was a brilliant talk, but it was over my head and I’m like, well if it’s over your head How do you know it’s a brilliant talk my friend and they didn’t they couldn’t engage with that and I’m like Maybe that’s the problem But yeah because because that does happen with her well, I think it happens with all of them I’m gonna be honest I think it happens with a show in Peterson, too They have these incredible insights and they might Oftentimes might not be anything to do with the topic at hand quite frankly And then all of a sudden they’ll say something and it’s clearly genius and so that’s that but but but people tend to give them a Cart Blanche pass then right? That’s weird, too They hear someone thing that’s brilliant, but they don’t have that critical mindset to think Oh, well, but the thing he said here about you know raising your children blah blah blah like there’s not I’m surprised how lacking in critical Thinking people are it’s just it’s but they don’t get it in the schools anymore And I know that well then they’re not taught to think it also and I don’t mean thinking that I I mean to reason They’re not taught to reason is a better word But reasonable right? Well, that’s the yeah. Well, then that’s the problem like Reasonable doesn’t cut it because logic reason of rationality have to be embedded in a telos Right, right, and if they’re not they don’t work rather they can do anything and Like I keep to come back to hallucinating again. I can rationalize or make logical or reasonable anything That’s not hard for me to do I do it all the time for sure problem is it’s anything Including genocide hitler did it he rationalized the genocide he made it very logical to commit genocide He made it he made it very reasonable thing to do Right and in that sense it was scientifically correct like genocide is not scientifically incorrect idea The problem is it’s immoral and unethical. I just On which I object I don’t Find the crowd I wouldn’t use the word reasonable though. I think you’re wrong there I think you I think you’re wrong about using the word reasonable. I think it’s fair to use the word rationalized I think that’s fair, but not reasonable. I think well at least at least this I’m on I’m on the Gilchrist side He gives it a very he spends like 150 pages talking about what reasonable is and reason and and I think it’s fair to give it a more He puts it he puts it fairly much in the right hemisphere not totally but but you know imagination intuition like it’s a very rich thing for him and I I Worry mark that people this this to me is the major point people don’t know what we’re talking about when you say reason I mean, maybe maybe some people do but I think it’s better to use rationalize because to me that’s more That Hitler kind of way of you start from whatever axiom and then you move logically but reason the axiom determines the reason right because The opposite is the faith open the love I think that’s and that’s what everything’s actually born from I got to have to balance It out. Otherwise the logic reason of rationality doesn’t work Where do you put I don’t know about reason though? I like to think that reason is is in that same world as the virtues and and I mean I like to put it with justice. I like to put put it with imagination I like to put it with intuition and that McGill Chris does that clearly He’s he does not he doesn’t confuse those two concepts and I think it’s critically important because well But I but I think but again you can pervert justice the same way Like I think that’s really the problem is that you can pervert justice very easily with with bad tell us Well, you can do that with anything right? That’s what I mean. Is that yeah The important part is the tell us and then what determines the quality of a tell us? That is for the true the good and the beautiful and That’s what we need to aim at and I would say that’s the You know that that’s the other side of the of the coin. I just wonder though mark I’m really curious about this word reason I’ve been wondering about it for 45 years just so you know, and I’ve never got anywhere And I can really deal with the rational I can I’m fine with the Hitler analogy You start with an axiom you use logic and away you go and that’s that’s that’s left hemisphere, right? It’s closed system There is no questioning it They just you start there and away you go and that’s I can understand that’s called Rationalizing and and would you where do you put logic with that then? Tell me where you’re putting logic. This is is that logical? Logic are the right so the Rationality right is the way you justify the connections Logic is the connections Okay, okay Okay, got it. Okay, so I think reason is what I think reason now I could be wrong But but but I would think that McGill Chris would agree with me from what I’ve read I’ve done it twice through I’ve done the matter with things twice through and I’m gonna do it again this fall I love it because he he’s talking to he’s defining things, but he’s defining things like this He’s going all around it all which ways perspectives. So there’s nothing He’s constant. Yeah, but not just like he’s weaving to just like you do He’s he’s weaving it and and to me like what you were talking about when you think about Matthew Peugeot or when you think about the way you do things actually I would say reason that’s that quality that we were talking about To me that’s reason but that in that that that experience based in experience Amplified amplified by by as you said the fellow who’s working with his hands, right? I mean that’s all the world of reason and I think I think make a distinction Yeah, the real problem with reason is that it’s actually used two different ways Right, right because its reason is tell us right versus reason as the path you use to get there and Those are two different things. Yeah, so we equivocate on the word to Vicky’s point with equivocation We equivocate on the word reason all the time and that’s why I separate out tell us because I think that’s important right the tell us is That final cause right which is really important to understand Okay, keep going. So so yeah, but that’s Okay, keep going because we can say tell us I kind of disappear in the pageau land a little bit Sorry, go ahead. Well, it’s final cause so It’s the first in intent and the last in action So you have an in you have an intent to instantiate justice So your final cause your tell us is justice, right? And then you you then you move towards that right you determine judgment and action and and then that The final cause is the thing you act out. So that came first in your intent. You had to think about it first. Oh First in your intent you’re putting it in time You have to predict that you can do it and predict what it’s going to look like whether you’re right or wrong is not actually Relevant and then you move towards it So that’s that’s reason to me. That’s reason or reasonable or whatever. I don’t know Yeah to me that is one version of reason right the other version of reason isn’t wrapped up and tell us at all It’s wrapped up in justification for an action Instead of right and so you go. I don’t know the reason I did that was Motive right. Are you sure that that that that’s what was driving you because Right and and and it is this, you know this hindsight justification for your actions rather than their actual intent Right as originally conceived up. So you do your discernment judgment. What was the other thing action? So so your so your discernment judgment is that that’s that’s part of a reason right with the telos I Don’t think that’s yeah, see I just tend to discount Reason altogether because I don’t Yeah, you don’t use it very often in one way It’s part of logic and rationality because that’s the the dark triad of of of the procedural and propositional way of seeing the world In the other way it because it’s got two meanings it bridges that gap Right, but I think the other side is faith open love or something like that Manuel and I argue about this on a regular basis. I’m still not sure right What’s the other side of the brain doing? It’s you know, it’s faith open love right faith that you can enact the telos Right hope that you’ll do it correctly, right and loves the thing that makes it happen Right is the thing that binds everything together to instantiate the thing, right? Which is correct, they’re supposed to be fuzzy, right? That’s the whole point. It’s supposed to be poetic It’s not supposed to be because you participate Poetically all your participation is poetic. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right So that’s why I struggle with reason because I’m like, hey They’re using it to bridge the is that gap and and they’re using it as telos But they’re not they’re not using it correctly because they’re really using it in a way that they’re not using it They are not using it correctly because they’re really just using it to validate Actions already taken they’re not using it as final cost which is the proper way that you would want to use something like that Right. Yeah, okay. Okay, although it’s pretty intellectual like I think I don’t know and I struggle with that too. Obviously I think it’s just really hard because we have this equivocation on the word Yeah, and it’s and and it just drives me crazy if somebody really does mean rationalizing or rationalistic And they use you they refer to reason like just don’t do that like try not to mash up up quite as much Wow, you yeah, these conversations are great Really helpful. Oh, wait, are you gonna do are you gonna do some? Oh, oh, yeah If you do something, how will we find out if you do something with Matthew Peugeot’s brilliant? Schema I Will I will reach out to him about that? I gotta I gotta get through next week and if I survive next week Oh if you got a week coming, okay I gotta I gotta drive across the state. I gotta go talk to people in person. I got all this stuff It’s hard, right? Everything’s a mess Everything’s a mess. And yeah, I gotta work out this billing thing with the insurance I gotta I gotta work out all these things that just broke all the rules All these things that just broke all at once and i’m like And in the middle of this i’m i’m i’m in the middle of running a startup. We’ve got two people i’ve got to manage them Right, and so it’s just been like a complete catastrophe it’s just like everything at once and You know so far so good. I like I I haven’t cracked under the pressure but Man, it is hard I’m gonna have some off days just because it’s everything’s a mess and all over the place and Yeah, it’s hard to structure it good because I get to go out and i’m going to an office and we’re you know Making stuff happen, which is good. I like to make stuff happen. So that’s been good But it’s also taking me away from my support network at the same time and and you know And it’s hard to get support like my family’s just terrible. So no help from them, right? And you know, it’s just it’s all these little things, right? It’s all the little things that build up in your life that it’s like, ah, this is all This is still the the the mess that it always was right but it’s more urgent now because Chaos is increasing like everyone’s like over the future. I’m like, oh, there’s more chaos coming buddy. Yeah, trust me Trust me I i’ve i’ve already got the the patterns. I know them I know the path like you’re right though. It’s the chaos right and it’s really it’s It’s hard. It’s hard not to let it It’s hard not to let it be the snake in the damn garden, right? Like it’s No, no, no, no, you’re just a crap. You can’t focus on it Yeah, you have to create order where you can and even knowing that it might get wiped out by the chaos and And and the thing is I was telling sally joe this last week. I think I was saying like things are really moving a lot faster a lot faster like the rate of acceleration is logarithmic and it’s just going through the roof and I don’t think people are really aware of how bad that is And I’ve talked about it before like why’d you move out of new england because the traffic pattern changed, right? That’s why And it wasn’t like oh that means x y or z It just you can’t sustain a change of that magnitude in a month It’s not possible for a system to sustain a level of change that that that happens that fast And and sure enough the whole place is iraq because The state of massachusetts lifted their covid restrictions in march of this year They’ve officially lifted the covid Emergency status and i’m like you guys are all on drugs or high or like what is wrong with you people? Like seriously, what is wrong with you? You almost you have to laugh in a way. You can’t believe it Well, and the thing is though now there’s people up there that are completely off their rocker that were fine before I mean look i’m not saying they weren’t on the edge because a lot of them were but now they’re over the edge And you’re not coming back from that some of those people are not coming back. I agree I think mark. I think many people are already gone like oh, yeah I mean i’m super gone like i’ll admit i’m i’m one of the gone but but seriously and then I went to an optometrist And I think she thought I was her Psychotherapist it was bizarre. Oh, yeah, this is how crazy people are sharing with other people Oh my goodness. Yeah, but i’m serious like like I just With my vision She had to tell me about her trip that she took the azores about her father who died and how she did like I am not kidding you. It was bizarre So I’ve just come from my little village in italy where it’s like I mean it is paradise It’s definitely paradise and and and and I go there actually just to kind of re Reorient what yeah. Yeah, I guess that’s it. And then I go to the optometrist one week after I couldn’t believe it. I I was I I just so you you cannot have enough I mean to your point you can’t have an optometrist telling her client About her like literally went on Okay, this is the final thing. Okay, she went on about the trip these hours for at least 10 minutes So I listened to that she did the eye test my eyes water really easily when you put anything in them So she really had trouble with the drop she was bringing and then guess what mark As soon as she did that and she did all her little tests She had a bottle of a special kind of eye drops that I needed She had just had difficulty using drops with me and she thought I might need these eye drops to prevent myself water My eyes watering a little bit in the wintertime She really zeroed in on that problem that I I mentioned that my eyes got watery. It wasn’t a big deal I don’t really care and and then so she she had this little she zeroed in on it drew her my attention to it And then right at the end and then she was pushing a book out to me at the same time It was bizarre and this is one of the wealthiest areas of Toronto. So there you go You think the society’s gonna last mark? No. No, well look in the u.s. People don’t realize this 30 uptick in suicides 30 uptick in in drug addiction 30 uptick in domestic murder That was the first two years after kovat each year 30 uptick highest jump ever And as far as I know it continued, right? So it’s a three-year pattern That’s not sustainable to lose 30 Like that that’s not sustainable because we we we already had a problem That was You know with homeless and drug addiction and all that stuff that was unsustainable and now we’ve got this ridiculous suicide rate And and more drug addiction and and more domestic murder like that’s that’s not sustainable Well, you know why you know why because that’s how it that’s how you get That’s how you get to take control. That’s precisely it because that’s what hitler did he made everybody complicit by by making it possible to murder the Developmentally delayed young people in the home But no, but you used to murder it gets you used to death He and then everybody he used empathy these people are suffering and therefore but but people don’t understand You got to go before that the thing that hitler did that people don’t I mean he was on the covertime magazine for a good Reason which was I know he saved germany. I know no thinker of the i’ve read the contemporary writings Zero people zero actual people thought germany was going to be around in five years. I know I live in Germany is no longer a country. We understand that france stole their food source. They’re done Yeah, no, I think even churcho wrote that and like nobody thought they were going to survive and this guy comes out of the middle of nowhere Nobody and he saves the country seemingly by himself This I honestly i’m not being hyperbolic. That is probably the greatest miracle story since jesus walked on water Yeah, you’re right because of the other thing did but the walking on water part for sure No, but sure I know because I lived in germany I spoke german as a student and and studied in germany and I remember I lived with this Rented a room from this wonderful woman just the most solid character and just delightful and cultureed And she said when she told me said that exact same thing to me mark I knew I knew that was it. It was true. It was the fact that that is what people Right, well, and that’s why they followed him and then he gives you this wonderful message of here’s these suffering people Here they are and we can do something about it. We can end their suffering And it is technically the only way to end their suffering Is that that it’s suffering and not struggle that’s one distinction and then you have to believe that that struggle is not good But yeah, but my argument is brainwashing right? But you and I are green. It’s the brainwashing and when you start when you brainwash and you convince anybody That that death is better than life. You have already you’re the game’s over the game’s over The bloodbath is coming man. It’s coming like in canada Yeah With the maid program. Oh my goodness. Am I surprised not surprised? Not none of the thing that shocks me still just blows my mind is that they actually wrote a paper to justify this on economic Grounds, I know and I was like you have got to be how no it’s not bad. It’s not bad Well, but but the thing that’s bad is that if that happens in your country And people don’t literally get pitchforks and torches and take care of this problem the right way Then you’re done Like you cannot let an institution with people like that survive. That is not acceptable You need to remove those people from all institutions immediately. I know It’s not a coincidence that paigeau peterson for vacurolles canadian, right? Come on. Come on Well, they they they’re on the cusp of the meaning crisis canada’s way ahead I said this before I said that when my mother was still alive I remember she was she was still sicking in bed with her second bout of cancer And I said to her because I was listening to peterson at the time I said canada’s in a lot of trouble and she was like Canada, what are you talking about? We’re in a lot of trouble and i’m like, oh no canada’s in a lot of trouble Yeah, we’re the I tell my italian friends. I tell them that We’re gonna blow first. We’re gonna be the first country to go in in the west That was I think 2018 when I told her that oh, yeah for sure for sure She didn’t believe me, but I was like no, it’s uh It’s it’s not good up there and and yeah, you know and all of europe. I mean my goodness edinburgh is so Like there’s just zombies everywhere. I was just so like blown away I’m like I didn’t like I know like I I understand the zombie but like they’re like they’re there You can you can I could just hear them sucking the marrow out of the bones of the of the place I could hear it when you go out in the country. It’s like as soon as you get away from the big cities I find the cities are edinburgh I have to admit like I was surprised because peterson I I it was my first time and peterson had just had been praising it So highly and I assumed it was more like and I don’t know. No, you don’t agree It is beautiful, but it’s It’s not even like it’s not real like that’s the thing it’s not real like oh here’s a volcano And then over here is a castle, right? And then and then behind you is it is the is the ocean the fourth of first or first of fourth? Whatever the first of fourth, right and then and then all in the middle of that Beautiful churches like every block, right? And then so you go to the museums there though So i’m in the museums in edinburgh just kind of hanging out checking out the museums, right? And i’m going through these things and they’re just terribly configured I don’t i’m like this is just this just rates on me. I’m a big museum fan and I was like This is awful and then we went up to inverness, right? So we take this four-hour train ride. I’ve said it before I saw nine rainbows So it’s like I don’t think I saw nine rainbows in my life before that nine rainbows of four and a half hour train ride Right We get to inverness and they have this little museum and we weaseled our way in because it’s the middle of fake news virus scam And they’re just looking for an excuse to let us in because they’ve got an empty museum and they’re tending it and it’s open So they want us to go in but they need they need certain things to be said, right? And and it’s all like we know that and they know that and we can’t say it out loud So we figure out a way to tell them the right things and they go. Oh, yeah, that’s good enough You’re in come on into our lovely museum, right? So we’re in the museum by ourselves and we’re just touring the museum and it’s so well laid out It’s all in order and I got more information about scotland in the middle of museum and inverness than I did in the one in edinburgh But edinburgh’s gorg i went to the university there. Oh my god. What a campus It’s just like no just walking around and I got a stop Look, look at that view of the volcano. Oh, look at that view of that building Oh, look at the view of the castle. Look at that. Look at that. Look at it was unbelievable Which is unbelievable, you know What is going on here? But in the meantime, there’s all these people and they’re looking straight across And you can hear the noise. It’s the sound of the sucking of the marrow Of you know hundreds of years of progress just being sucked away by zombies They’re just feeding on the legacy of the past and just just completely destroying it and you know More than half the churches aren’t churches anymore and they still look like churches, but they’re not being used that way And I mean you can just feel the the poverty of spirit, right? And this is my big complaint about the church, right? They’re they’re paying attention to the people who are materially in need, but they’re not paying attention to the affluent who are spiritually bankrupt Because that’s what they should be doing their job their specialty the thing they’re best at is spiritual And they’re not paying attention to it like they’re helping the homeless i’m not saying don’t help the homeless They should help the homeless, but they’re not paying attention To the affluent who are spiritually bankrupt. Those are the people you have to help too. You can’t ignore them Me right that’s what peterson appeals to he appeals to the spiritually bankrupt affluent people That’s what the meaning crisis is all about we have affluence But we have no spiritual home if you want to use the chino language, right we have we have we’re spiritually bankrupt And so our affluence isn’t held up by anything and now we can’t instantiate justice So the courts are corrupt and the judges are corrupt and the lawyers are corrupt and you know And and the banks are corrupt and like it’s just everywhere I shouldn’t laugh. Well, did you find any of the like I I kind of didn’t listen to many of the the chino Um presentations, did you find any of them really remarkable you’d recommend? I have only partially listened to the Peugeot brveki talk because I was told it was really good. I didn’t like it. I couldn’t find anything in it I don’t know what it was so good about I am I i’m still listening. I haven’t finished it yet I just got totally distracted by actually having to work and Dealing with with people who don’t know how to do billing and all kinds of it’s been Completely rollercoaster crazy Uh, I had to read a deposition and it was full of lies and yeah, uh, it was It’s been a mess. So Oh, yeah. Yeah, apparently i’m a sociopath. I’m like If you thought I was a sociopath you wouldn’t rip me off because sociopaths kill people Like you would not rip off a sociopath. That would not be a good strategy So you obviously don’t believe i’m a sociopath by the way, but anyway, yeah Oh, no, it’s slander all over this thing. It’s it’s bad. So I think actually that’s gonna play to my favor ultimately But I gotta talk to my lawyer next week. I talked to my lawyer. We’ll find out in person I’m gonna lay this out for him So i’m dealing with all this stuff, right? So I didn’t have a chance to finish it but i’m told that it was you know, one of their best conversations Yeah, i’m told too, but I couldn’t I couldn’t say it. I can’t see any of it. So I don’t know I don’t know what that’s I don’t know what it might be What it looked like there were some you know, the the problem that I was told about by by somebody who was there um Was that they they again just like thunder bay Although I guess it was better in thunder bay. They didn’t bring it down, right? They’re not bringing it down to the practical participatory Way of of engagement, right? It’s all still too floaty. Yeah, it’s still too abstract Yeah, I guess that’s what I felt with that conversation in chino too it just wasn’t yeah, I just yeah, that’s exactly right It’s hard to bring verveki down into that realm because he’s an academic and he’s not comfortable with You know, he’s trying to avoid being a guru and like fair enough, but they’re afraid of charisma, which is not optional So I don’t think that’s useful and that’s because they’re postmodern They believe the postmodern critique of hitler and stalin, you know Basically marxism would have worked if these guys hadn’t hijacked it with their charisma. That’s basically the argument It’s so easy to see and people don’t see it But because of that they won’t get practical because they don’t want to be seen To be telling people what to do And so they won’t bring it down on purpose because they don’t want to peterson’s got the same problem in my opinion Yeah, although he is super pragmatic compared to the rest of them, but he still won’t bring it down all the way Yeah, I agree with you. I agree In the books for sure. I like the books. The books are great clean your room is awesome, right? But when they’re Anything beyond that level of individualistic participation. That’s what it is. They’ll talk about individualistic participation But anything else which would be community or cooperation or any of that stuff? They won’t talk about because they’re individualists And so they’re they’re red as in leading and telling people what to do because they don’t want to take that responsibility for leadership Fair enough like being a leader sucks, man It’s a sacrifice and it’s terrible and other people have to agree and they have to sacrifice and there’s all this authority And it shouldn’t all lie in the leader and oh, it’s a mess. It’s it’s really hard To be a leader is a terrible burden Yeah, and it’s it’s it’s horrible like it it I think being a leader is truly horrible. Like it’s probably your worst nightmare Because it’s a terrible burden. It’s a terrible burden because it’s like what you’re going through only exponentially and it’s all the time Well, and it’s not you’re not responsible for only you at all Now you’re responsible for a bunch of people and what you’re really responsible for as a leader is Losers that’s your responsibility It’s because you can’t save everybody and any decision you make is going to have a set of losers because hierarchy is real You’re right. That’s the see The top is bad because there has to be a bottom and you need to minimize the bottom And it’s like minimize based on what number of people that get hit or the severity of the hit to the people? Because those are two different dimensions right there and and there’s others But those are the two major ones that sort of play off each other, you know, you’re better off spreading the risk around Right. This is teleb talks a lot about this nothing celebs books are great for this You’re better off having a lot of little losers than having the banks fail But if you make smaller banks or fewer banks rather and they get bigger then the the the the consequences of that are terrible Yeah Yeah. Oh, wow Anyway, everybody I know, you know, I coming back well everybody talks about it in europe, too except for It’s fundamentally more more grounded it’s there’s a culture there still and and um, I come back here and people are just They’re either like floating in shopping or whatever. I don’t know and and yet troubled seriously troubled by the chaos around them And yet well, they’re just they’re disconnected and they have a sense that things are bad But they don’t know Why or how because they’re not grounded so that when you’re not grounded It’s hard you can have a sense for something and that sense is correct, but you can’t do anything more with it Right because yeah, like it’s weird right? So in the u.s right now the problem that we have is that we have a bunch of conservative republican churchgoers Who cannot? cannot Tell you that that Drag queen story hour or drag times or whatever the hell it’s called is bad They can’t do it and i’m like, but they’re conservative republican churchgoers Well, this is a two-second equation. What is wrong with these people? And they can’t do it Right, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly you know why because they they They’re not grounded, but they’re Well, then then where are they you might say because Because that was schaefer’s point. He said there’s all these lovely people in these reform churches and but they have no idea of what’s happening outside of that building They’re totally disconnected from the culture around them and from the language around them. They don’t even They’re not using words the same way So no wonder like this is 40 years later from when he said this he was It was it was obvious that the people were back to us way back in the 60s and 70s They were finally says artists can be responsible people just hate them. Then no, it’s ali. We just hate artists. Anyway They don’t have to be responsible for us to hate them Uh, william says weimar proceeds the third right? Yeah Well, the third right can only happen in the destruction that was that was uh manifest in weimar You know and and and like here here’s here’s here’s a bombshell for you Hitler was democratically elected And then here’s a worst bombshell the people Democratically called for him to be chancellor for life and then voted for it. Haha Take that democracy lovers. Go ahead. Oh call it populism. Go ahead His populism is just democracy that you don’t like that’s all populism is mary harrington said the same thing I was so thrilled. I’m like i’ve been saying this for years Oh years and she said something almost dead on the same thing and I was like, yeah Populism is just democracy that you don’t like it goes the way you don’t want it to go. That’s all it is You’re not talking about anything else That’s brilliant. Yeah, she’s brilliant too. Wow Yeah, yeah, she’s really good She surely is But yeah, it was um, um I know they they actually I mean the other thing is the other thing is as As frau drumkovsky told me people don’t understand the starvation, right? People just don’t understand people were starving to death in germany like wealthy people. Yeah pimping out their daughters Like I horrible it’s it’s Unbelievably horrible. There was nothing there was just yeah It was it was they didn’t have enough physical food because france took it all and they didn’t need it. Yeah Yeah, and the money the inflation of the money like I You know taking a wheelbarrow full of money for half a loaf of bread or whatever. It was just we can’t even understand that No, we can’t have any of it. It’s not within our well And that’s and that’s why you need to understand the weimar republic In order to understand the rise of hitler and you need to understand that he actually performed what by any standard is a miracle by any standard and then once you realize that Absolutely, everybody knew in 1919 when the treaty of versailles was written that they were screwing german Everybody knew it they all knew it every single last one of them knew it You can read their writings at the moment Contemporaneously, they all knew it woodrow wilson nearly had a nervous breakdown and quit the league of nations Which then became the united nations right and then when you hear the source of the united nations You’re not so hot on it anymore. I’ll tell you that you do your research You’re not going to be hot on the united nations. Let me tell you that much right because once you know what happened before It’s like oh this we tried this and it failed and we did it again And there was no reason to because because then then you understand why? Hitler arms the country in violation of the treaty and nobody cares Even france feels so guilty they won’t they won’t lift a finger to do anything about it because they know full well they’ve got the blood on their hands from destroying the country and so Everybody and that’s why it’s like well the turning point with poland was it I don’t know But everybody if you read the stories because I love reading reading by biographies and autobiographies of people Mainly in great britain right at the time people were fascinated with the success of the german economy I mean Americans were people didn’t understand what was going on at all. It was a miracle I know but people were were like he was I mean he was highly admired and the germans were highly admired There were very few voices there was like winston church. It was basically alone He used to sit in the parliament and wait because nobody understood what was actually going on They were so full of admiration for the what was happening in germany. There’s no question about that you read Read stories like what’s his face? He charles lindbergh. There’s zillions of americans. Oh, yeah What was happening? everywhere Well, and that’s right. That’s why uh, everybody became a nazi basically They were you couldn’t get a job as a jew you couldn’t get a job in new york city Wow That’s real i’ve seen the i’ve seen some of the uh reports from from people that were you know there People got fired from their jobs for being jewish in new york city like the phone company and stuff. It’s crazy What are we talking? What year Are you talking? I don’t remember what year what set of years as well and and there were like a lot of people don’t understand The the our whole thing is there was a boat with like 980 jews on it and we refused them entry uh, everybody’s uh beloved, uh, uh roosevelt did that Franklin dillan roosevelt Canada refused that boat actually that cannot refuse the boat, too You know what in toronto you want to hear this one? um, there’s um a royal canadian yacht club on an island just at the mouth of the port there and There jewish people were allowed to be part of the royal canadian yacht club up until I think it was 1960 They formed their own little club called the national yacht club because I asked somebody how it came about And they told me it’s due. It’s because they weren’t allowed to join any of the other clubs. We’re talking about the 50s Yeah, 50s. Well linberg was popular and he was yeah famously huge nazi fan And yeah, no, it was bad and people have no idea it wasn’t yeah But this was the post this was after the war still after I know long after the war Yeah Yeah Well, look again, you gotta understand the miracle and then you’re like, oh well people had admiration for them Of course they did he performed a miracle Yeah, well they and And and they they saw the rally the nurmberg rally people saw it the way you describe it But they I don’t know. I do not I if you told me you watched that and weren’t moved by it I would just call you a liar or a dead person. I’m I just don’t believe anybody’s not moved by that I’m, sorry I’m sure there’s one or two out there, but I don’t they just like I don’t think you’re the buddha I don’t think you’re the one that’s not moved by that. I’m sorry. I just don’t I’ve never seen anybody not moved by that. I’ve seen people watch it before because they played it in school at one point and People are moved by that and they’re conflicted when they are because they know what it is and they’re just like wait a minute This is the this is the guy that went on to do the thing and they’re like, yep That’s the guy that went on to do the thing and and and they don’t they can’t deal with it mentally They just can’t deal with it mentally Yeah, yeah, they can’t they don’t understand that you start with a false axiom and it all makes sense, right? They don’t get that They don’t get it at all. No number of people that challenged me to justify the holocaust Using logic reason and rationality and I was like first of all pick something hard because hitler already did that and they stop and they would do They couldn’t they couldn’t deny that that happened and they were like, oh And then they stopped because they were like because I would tell them oh I can do it using completely different methods That’s not hard and then they’d get scared because they don’t want that to be true, right? So they would pick something else which was a good good choice really like you don’t want to terrify people out of their minds So yeah, they’d pick something else and and look I played that game many times with many people who are probably way smarter than I am on so many ways And I won every single time and they always admitted that I won every single time well again because it’s true It’s not hard to do if you’re if you’re me and you’re dyslexic. But yeah, oh, oh are you dyslexic? Massively dyslexic. Well, I think that gives me an advantage because I can see the end of everything I mean, I know the end of that is because the dyslexia gives you that it’s one of the things it gives you How does it give that to you? I’ve been Because in dyslexia you’re mixing things up And so what happens is you’re constantly finding new ways to order things so that you don’t screw up spelling and numbers Because I I still screw up. So one of the things I do is because I think very fast Thank be ineffable right like whatever very grateful for that I check everything in my head three times before I before I say it like if i’m reading out a string of numbers I actually check it three times before I start writing it or speaking it or whatever And that that’s not 100 percent But it’s so good that most people don’t notice that i’m hugely dyslexic. That’s why when people are like you should read this book I’m like, do you do what I would rather stick my head in a fire? Like what are you talking? Because it’s it’s way less painful than reading a book I mean reading about and the thing is too. I can’t listen to books because they Go right through me right because the struggle of reading is so hard for me being dyslexic Because I mean there’s times when I have to reread Like I read the sentence and I have to reread it because like I screwed up And the thing is it’s not I don’t screw up letters Because I do but I also screw up words and word order Wow And that completely destroys meaning and then you got a that sentence didn’t make any sense. Let me go back Oh, okay. Now I got it. I I swapped these two words over here. They’re not it’s not adjacent words Like it can be words that are like four words apart in a sentence and they get swapped and i’m like wait a minute So I have to have all these ways of checking everything and ordering ordering is really important Because if you don’t understand ordering you don’t understand cause and effect, right? And if you don’t understand cause and effect then You know who knows what’s going on like the number of people I talk to who don’t understand Simple things like no, no, no Money came before government because you need money for government. Nobody understands that They don’t get it. I’m like do you really? Or or thought precedes language. They don’t understand. I’m like it has to It has to like how do you not and they don’t understand the significance of that? They just don’t get why the order of things is important Wow, and where’s your your youth hyper training you you you’re constantly training That’s why you’re like you’re like like you’re like you’re like an athlete in constant training like you’re wow Right. It’s constant for me, right? I have to fight so so like like verveky in his he did an advertisement for after socrates, right? And he said uh socrates said I know I know nothing and the minute I heard it I went i’ve heard that before and I know that’s not right. I am positive More positive than than whether or not the sun’s coming up tomorrow that there’s no way that socrates ever said anything Remotely resembling that and then I did 20 25 minutes of research and found out it’s a misquote and it’s completely wrong And he didn’t say anything like that and it’s in the apologia. I forget which one, uh, but it’s in the apologia and What he said was? The oracle says i’m i’m the wisest man, but I don’t think that’s true On the other hand Here’s this guy who says he knows something and he clearly doesn’t know it and the difference between him and me Is that I know when I don’t know something and that’s what makes me wiser than him And I was like yes But that’s not I know I know nothing because that’s a contradiction and a paradox and those aren’t real See a contradiction or a paradox. It is the limit of your world view I’m not saying you have to resolve it. You can just accept the limit But it’s a limit to your world view. That’s why xeno’s paradox exists It shows you that materialism doesn’t explain the world and cannot explain the world Because you can’t reach a goal according to xeno You can’t reach a goal using quantity because you you can always cut the measurement You can never reach the wall. That’s actually correct It’s just that we don’t live in a world ruled by quantity and measurement we live in a world ruled by quality Where you can imagine reaching the wall and because you can imagine reaching the wall you can reach the wall right right Hmm. We’re getting close to my idea of reason again It’s a tough one Oh, well, that’s fascinating Wow, do you get does it tire you though? Like it doesn’t are you so used to it? I guess you’re so used to it. It’s just your life right all of this Manage your you’re like your your manager of yourself. It’s amazing. I get tired when I can’t When i’m alone and then I can’t be in nature Like if I have to like if i’m stuck in my office just working And like if I were just sitting writing all this down that would make me tired I don’t get tired when I can communicate with other people or when i’m out in nature then I can recharge Peterson said that like introverts are charged by being in nature. I’m like surrounded by my 12 acres going. Yes Yes, we do. That is exactly what we do because when I get tired I just go outside And because I have all this land and I can just go outside and I can go on the kayak on the pond or I can Walk across the dam and see water because I can Right. So right and I can see all this nature and look outside and the odds are good. I’ll see dragonflies and butterflies and and uh bumblebees and lizards, right or or I’ll see a deer or a river otter or a beaver or you know, there’s all kinds of stuff here that just shows up Of blue heron, right? Yeah, there’s all kinds of stuff showing up so You know, it’s it’s it’s nice and some of that’s going to go away because they’re building like mad out here Because south carolina is pretty popular place to move to Um all of a sudden, but you know for right now I still got 12 acres man and and there’s land across the street from that 12 acres. That’s even bigger That’s not built up yet. So that’s good and there’s a hundred acres Closer to town actually, it’s not built up and that’s not too far away. So the deer and stuff, you know Yeah Some do you think that do you think that’s related to the dyslexia that connects that close connection to nature somehow? Or it makes sense But you’re an introvert too, right like i’m i’m i’m an introvert Yeah, i’m so connected to nature too People drains the ever-living crap out of me it just completely Yeah, it just blah and I can’t track stuff. I’m trying to track too many things and I just can’t do it So I don’t know how to narrow in when i’m in a group I don’t know how to narrow in and and like it’s very hard. I can do it sometimes but It’s a lot of yeah, it’s really a lot of work. I’m people don’t believe me. I’m like hyper introverted. I just Like there’s no way to describe how hyper introverted I am. It’s just and they say oh no, but you’re so lively and a little no There’s nothing to do with it. And sometimes, you know, I like to go to parties sometimes Not very often, but I I like that. It’s just really draining for me. I love it. I love being with people I loved I loved that whole life, but it’s just i’m so like honestly it Like to me a solitude is like drinking water. It really is. It’s like drinking water I just wow, but I guess I guess many of us are like that indeed That was a great conversation. Are you going to talk? What are you going to talk about next week? I don’t know yet. I don’t know. I haven’t talked about hallucin Do you think you could no, I guess you want to talk to metropage. Oh about is brilliant I could do I could do hallucination actually because that is Is Bringing us back into action and participation and responsibility So I might I might well and I wouldn’t i’m not sure if it would be hallucination or fantasy Right, and then I could link the two together obviously right because you’re so people is fantasy like Where where is the edge of my thinking in relation to my actions, right? Because that’s what you have to hone in on next I think so maybe I really like that Where do you get all your your I mean you i’m sorry, I know you think i’m just ador Dr mcgillchrist which I do but but you’re so you’re so aligned the way you use words You’re so aligned with him. It just freaks me out. I’m well, he’s precise and accurate with his speech and that’s the key That’s why I like peterson because he’s precise and accurate with his yeah, but none and I you’re I I don’t think he’s as precise as you are to be quite honest I don’t think peterson is as precise as you are at all. I think you are much more precise Well, and anyway, it is quite a compliment. I will accept that compliment and I really like dr peterson more or less But okay, are you going to do hallucination and fantasy? I love that. I think that’d be really fascinating I can put that in there. Yeah if you if you because you’re gonna have a really like you’re gonna be like um An italian peasant this week sounds like to me you’re gonna have to go down there and figure out how to get bowed into the sea and Then you’re gonna have to mend your nets and uh, you know And it’s not only you’re not gonna have all the guys at the port helping you are you or maybe you will maybe some will appear No, no, I mean, I don’t I don’t do these although this one this one I did by myself because I didn’t get much time online to talk about responsibility, but Usually yeah, usually it’s a team effort, right? We’ve got a big team we had a bunch of people participating on the discord server And on twitter and so it’s not like, you know, i’m not doing this by myself. That’s not happening Right. Where’s all the special? You know mentions of these that this that may other person. I didn’t know that I actually I mentioned it all the time in the live streams. Yeah, oh do you? Yeah, I do Yep. Well and jesse did the did one of the monologues Oh, and he he did that with with you know with some help from me but more help from like Sally Jo Manuel and And a couple of other people like I you know I I mention all the time like Ethan and stuff because although we haven’t seen him lately because he’s off Taking care of a baby or something unimportant like that so Yeah, I mention it all the time. I mentioned Danny and all these other people that I talked to Yeah, my video that i’m going to do on leadership is almost entirely Danny’s fault because he he visited south carolina He came down to columbia visited me And we had a nice long conversation at a coffee house in downtown columbia And we talked about he wanted to talk about leadership and I’m like, all right. Well, that’s good. Then I can you know get it started I Don’t remember I was harassing him on twitter Sorry I was harassing him on twitter. I made a statement On yeah, I had been I had been tracking to him on twitter kind of directly but I think it was kael zeldin made a post And I mentioned something and I said I have a video on that right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’ve never said that before right and then mature said Mature said I need this video And I was like, oh, okay So I went and grabbed the link to the video and I guess he watched that one and a bunch of others Which one was that? Which one was the video that you he wanted? I don’t remember. I think it was economy oh Wow, and so he watched a bunch of my videos apparently and then made that recommendation that wonderful Recommendation to the channel that like I said, I mean I couldn’t I couldn’t have written a better recommendation for my own channel and Bang like just bang and it’s wonderful I mean, it’s it’s great and i’ve gotten engagement from new people not as much as you would think but that’s okay You know, whatever and then my jordan peterson his trick video Has gotten like 200 more views so I’m well over a thousand views on that one video. Wow, and now we have a thousand subs. So that’s good Yeah, the sam paris highest value video is getting up there it’s almost in the 900 I think is it 8889 or something So there’s a few videos That’s been yeah, it’s it’s yeah It’s like as he was talking about peterson was talking about right like getting going from zero Anywhere is really difficult. But once you know, that’s how it goes I remember watching I I discovered peterson early like, you know when I saw a little pageau way back in the day I shouldn’t see it like that, but he was just like this, you know, he’s just starting right? Oh, yeah Nothing happening and nothing happening. It was just it’s so it’s so interesting to see how that works and now he’s you know Wow, it’s it’s it’s great. So Sally joe wants hallucination phenomena fantasy and dreams She’s so good. We cultivate mark and then she says it’s a team effort. Yes. Oh bless her heart good for her That’s very what did she want? She wanted dreams and what was the other thing that’s fantasy and hallucination hallucination phenomena fantasy and dreams. Yeah. Wow Sally joe and mark and everybody else. Well, that’s good to know that was great. Thank you so much. I learned some I learned a great deal Well, i’m glad to hear that i’m glad to hear. Yeah. Yeah, I really enjoy I I think three and a half hours. So Yeah, your contribution is is is really I think it’s I thought that well ever since ethan recommended you I you know, there’s something I really am appreciate what you’re doing mark I can’t I don’t say that. I don’t say that lightly actually. I know i’m not a very nice person Well, it’s i’m glad you’re here you’re nice enough for us so Thanks kindly, but I really do I do learn a lot and I just find you can You you have that gift you can articulate things for the rest of us that we can I’m i’m glad that yeah, but we’re lucky us Yeah, i’m glad i’m glad that it works and I yeah, the monologues have been getting better and better i’m told so we’ll see We’ll see how this one was And uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was great to see you again I hope you engage next week when we talk about fantasy. Yeah, i’m interested And and maybe you’re going to go to that conference in washington dc. That’d be fun. Yeah, maybe I will Find out. Yeah, okay. Okay. Take care. Am I thanks? See you. Bye. Bye All right, everyone it’s uh It’s been a hell of a stream really appreciate everybody here and uh, everybody that’s watching after the fact And I hope you got something out of it I know there’s a lot wrapped up in there a couple people been asking for wrap up sort of like wrap all these ideas together Well, there you go. There’s a bunch of ideas that are all wrapped together. So Always a pleasure hope everybody has a great night. Thank you everyone for your support a thousand subs Um pretty soon. We’ll get monetized Uh, which is different from partnership now new thing. So yeah, we just need more watch hours So more watch hours 500 more watch hours. I get I get monetization whatever that means and then more fun more Engagement. So thank you everybody. Have a lovely night Navigate on