Embodiment - Gavin - Embodying the Logos (qH0zZZUEK3g)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=qH0zZZUEK3g

Hello, everybody. I’m here today with Gavin, doing an impromptu, embodying the logos about the embodiment, which is a continuation of a theme I said in a while back. I reached out to Gavin after, well, a tweet that he made about the personhood of God and how he was having issues with it, and that unfolded in a conversation that we had. And I’m basically, I think Gavin is having a bit of struggle with being in the right relationship with Michael B. Is that fair? Yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, and I don’t know if I don’t know what it looks like if you ever are in right relationship perfectly. Yeah. But yeah, it’s a seeking to be in right relationship. Right. And like, I think I think we all struggle with this, right? Like, this is like a universal problem in some sense. And some people take it more serious than others. And the problem that I see with seeking for right relationship is that it can get you stuck. Right? Like, there’s a perfectionist quality that can seep into what you’re doing. And then when you’re trying to pursue the perfect relation, you end up paralyzed. Right? And I think when we’re talking about the intimacy crisis, right, like, we have a crisis of intimacy, right? Like, not only with each other, but also with God. Right? Like, how do you have an intimate relationship with God? And like, if you don’t have an intimate relationship, right, you can be betrayed, right? You can misunderstand, you can, like, you, errors seep into your relationship, right? And if you don’t have the capacity to correct for your error, then you end up being corrupted yourself, right? Like you are what you eat. And if you eat wrong things, then you’ll end up being corrupted. So yeah, like, how does that framing side to you? Got it. It sounds good. The idea of pain and suffering come to mind when you’re not in a right relationship. But that’s how I usually know. And then, yeah, I don’t know if maybe, what does it look, the question for me is like, how do you know when you’re doing it? You know, and so I know when I’m pretty good at seeing when I’m not doing it, such that I’m experiencing pain and suffering or causing pain and suffering. It’s long. Yeah. And I’ve made a lot of mistakes with this perfectionist tendency. I could talk about those, but that, but yeah, I’m interested in this question of how, how do I know when you’re doing it? How do I know when I’m doing it? And to what degree or quantity quality? How well are we doing it? I just don’t, I don’t know, but I’m very interested in that. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, like I can see how that’s a problem. And the way I articulated what you were saying, and this is something that I really early in life already figured out this framing, it’s positive motivation and negative motivation. Right? So this was when I was disconnected from the faith effectively. So there’s a positive motivation you can have when, well, yeah, when something is, when you’re participating in the good effect, right? Like you recognizing a good quality and you’re participating in joy because you’re, you’re glorifying the world. Right? And it’s, it’s really hard, right? If you’re in a meaning crisis, which I was, if you don’t have meaning, you can’t do that. Right? Like there’s, there’s no good to be participated in, right? Like, because there’s no meaning to be found in your actions. And when, when we go to the idea of negative motivation, well, like you said, pain and suffering, right? Like, well, don’t do this because it’s bad. Right? Like that’s negative motivation. Right? Like, so being turned away from God, at least in some ways, because I, I’m going to argue that it’s not always, always, I’m not going to argue that, but I’m going to claim that. And so, so some ways being turned away from God is, is obvious. You run into a wall and, and reality says, no. Right. And now you have to, you have to fix it because else you can’t keep existing effectively. And so that’s really easy. And this is Sam Harris’s argument, right? Like, if we take the worst thing of the worst situation and the worst, worst, worst, worst, then we can start building from there and we go towards the good. But over time, I realized that that doesn’t work. I like what happens is you identify against the problem, right? The bad thing and you, you, you get captured by it, right? Like you, you flee from it, right? Or you fight it or, or you freeze in relation to it, right? Like that’s the three options that you have. And whatever it happens, right? Like all actions are in service of your relationship to that negative. And that can never lead to the glory because you’re stuck in the negative relationship. So it has to do with aim orientation. You, you, your focus and your aim is on the bad and attempting to like avoid it or yeah, error, correct. But you’re not aiming toward the good. Yeah, it’s like a, I was in missile defense and we, you know, we, I remember at one point thinking it’s like, I’m not sure I want these missiles being used. I’m not sure I want to create weapons of mass destruction. It’d be nice if we were building some things that building things that we want people to use, which is going to improve people’s lives. And I called it like weapons of mass construction. But yeah, you can get into a point where you’re just very defensive. Yeah, I’ve been there. Right. And so like you, you, you can take that as a universal principle, right? So you, you can get into a situation and you like, like for example, right? Like, Oh, I know my mom gets upset when the teacups aren’t on the table or whatever, right? Or they’re not continuously filled or whatever. Right. And then you spent the whole day making sure that they’re filled. Right. And then you have a horrible day because like, that’s all you did. Right. And like that doesn’t work. Right. But you can, you can have a good time with your mom so that she’s not paying attention to the teacups. Right. And glorify the celebration. Right. And, and that’s, that’s the two ways that you deal with it. Like one is you, you’re stuck in a binary, right? Like either the cups are full and you’re fulfilling the law effectively. Right. Or, or the cups are empty and you’re in sin. And it’s, it’s really, really hard to, to get out of that. Right. And, and the only way to get out of it is, is to see the means to glory, right? But the means to glory, like there’s no list or whatever that says, well, if I do this, my mom is going to be distracted. And I’m going to follow this recipe, right? This formula, this, this like, that doesn’t work. So you have to do it on faith. Right. Like you just have to go in and say, well, if I lift up the good, then my mom is going to recognize it and she’s going to participate. Is there the imagination we could be used? I mean, there’s, you can have thoughts and ideas for how you might participate in that glory. Like what come to mind for me is play. Like you might, all of a sudden you can have a more playful relationship with your mom at that point. And then there’s so many ways to play. But yeah, and then this capacity to imagine the ways that can be different, just even for example, playing, and then all the ways you could play is that’s kind of a skill. It’s something that you can practice. Yes. So when, when I hear you say play, right, like, like um, play is a means of exploration, right? Exploration. Yeah. It, it, so, so the, the, the play, like, like the, the way I look at play, at least in the way that for Vicky and Peterson use it, it’s, it’s a means of learning. Right. But there’s, there’s a playful- It can be used in other ways, but yeah, that’s like a, that’s, it’s good when you learn and you’re enjoying learning together. Yeah. Well, I mean, it can be done by yourself and with others. That’s a good form of play. And there’s some forms of play where I pulled, when I was a kid, I pulled the seat out from underneath someone or, you know, that people did it to me, or I did it to them where there were other people were sacrificed in the play, you know. So there’s different forms of play. Well, yeah, but, but in, but in general, um, play is, is, is a means of exploring, right? So it’s, it’s an exploration of boundaries, right? Like that, what you were talking about is like, how much can I get away with? Right. Like, like, sometimes it’s like not even just not thinking about the other person and just being subject to peer pressure, just trying to get like the room to, to respond in some way where there’s a lot of laughter at the expense of one, you know, or something like that. It’s a, yeah. And then it’s definitely, yeah, you are exploring when you do that and there’s better forms to do it. Maybe you can explore new ways and it helps with your imagination in the future, but you’re going to make mistakes and people get hurt as you’re doing that. Right. But, but when we’re talking about play, right. And, and, um, seeing play as a means of, of finding boundaries, right. Cause like that, that’s kind of what it does. Like, for example, if you, if you go play sports, right. It’s like, well, like I can do this, but I extend beyond this. Like I wreck myself, right. So it’s like, no, yeah, you can even like kill yourself and other people if you are playing, if you are not like playing properly or what I would think would be playing properly, like play can be very dangerous. Right. So, so like the boundaries, they, they manifest as a consequence of your participation, right. And, and, and they, they appear like they get revealed and, and there’s a, well, there’s another thing, right. So, so what are you doing? Right. You’re, you’re creating a other and, and a you, right. And, and between the other and the you, the boundary manifests, right. And, and so the, the you might be you identifying as a group against the person that’s bullied, right. And then like, what can I do within the bully relationship? Now you could say, well, that’s not a healthy relationship, right. Like that’s not pointed towards the good, right. But, but it’s, it’s still participating in, in that principle, right. And then you could say, am I engaged in proper play or not? Right. And I don’t mean proper play because it’s pointed towards the good, but am I enacting the principle? Well, if you don’t integrate the boundary, right, if you don’t recognize the boundary, then what you did is futile, right. So, so I would say like, when, when we’re judging whether the play is good, right, like in and of itself, not in the tellers that is participating in, I would say it’s whether you learn while doing it, like whether you have a means of looking, reflecting, right, or, or, well, it’s making a story, right. That, that will, that will make use of your experience. There’s a lot of things that like, I’ve, I’ve, some reason I’ve been focused on Genesis one and how there’s sometimes things are good. Sometimes things are so, and then some things are good. And then at the very end, it said that it was all very good. And it’s like, in your play, you could have the joy could be good. And you could have the learning can be good. And then you can have the, the way in which you play, are people going to want to play with you in the future? Is that good? How many people are learning? Are you creating stumbling blocks for it? Like there’s can be a lot of combinations of trade-offs of good and bad. And so there’s some ideal forms of play that you can aim for. Yes. Right. So, so what, what we’re talking about now is, is how do we frame our activity, right? And I think this actually directly connects to the struggle that you’re having, right? Because we were talking about the relationship to God, right? Like, like how do I play with God or wrestle with God, whatever framing you want to use there, right? How do I do that properly? Dance, like how do I do that properly? Right. And like, I don’t think, I don’t think it’s a constant, right? Like when, when you’re a pro soccer player, right? Like participating in the play means something different than when you’re just a kid on, on, on the courtyard, right? And so you have to recognize that- If it doesn’t, then it can get like, I saw a sign at the soccer field that it said, this is not the world cup. Some people have to be reminded of that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. So, so there’s, there’s this sense of, of forbidden knowledge or forbidden participation, right? It’s like, you’re not ready to act as if you’re at the world cup. Because if you do, like, it’s improper for you. Like, like you cannot, you cannot fulfill that role. And, and fulfilling a role that is too high, right? Even though that role is good, right? Like trying to be the Pope, if you never prayed, is ludicrous, right? So you need, you need to learn how to embody that, that specific quality, right? That, that is with the office that you’re trying to attain. And if, if the distance between you and the office is too big, you cannot hold it, right? Like, like what you’re, what you’re going to produce in that office is inevitably going to be corrupt because you cannot make something that’s not corrupt. You have competency. There’s, there’s some level of competency. Right. And, and so when I, I just want to add in there, the, there, there, there’s an experience I had in track where we were trying to win the state championship and we would have some people, two people out of the whole team were just lollygagging and they were just not treating it the same way, the practice, the same way as everyone else. And I got done and with a, one of ours, uh, intervals, and I just was mumbling to myself, I said, man, laziness is hella contagious. And my coach heard me. And when those kids, they came back around, they’re actually my friends that I, and coaches, because that was embarrassing for me. And the coach was like, what did you say earlier? And so he made me say it. And then my friends, they were no longer on the team. They left. And then we ended up winning state. And so there’s something like that where some people are interested in different forms of play some, and then some forms of there’s, there’s, and there is a way to become the Pope. You know, there is a way to play more seriously so that you can become the Pope. Um, this is related. I think, I think it’s related to like, you know, God, you know, trying, aiming for the ideal, aiming to serve God and trying to navigate this, how we play and who we play with and how seriously we take it and everything like that. Right. So, so what you were talking about with the contagion, right? Like there’s a spirit, right. And then there’s people who have certain qualities, right. And are they able to resist that spirit or not? Right. And the spirit of laziness when you’re a kid is like, I rather be lazy. Right. So it’s still, it’s still as contagious for me. I know how to be lazy. Right. So you have to build an internal integrity that can resist the laziness in order for you to not be contaminated by it. Right. Right. And so like, like you said, right, like there’s different means of participation, right. And like, let’s bring this to church, right. Like so church is, that’s what I want to see. Yeah. It’s a sacred place. Right. So, so in the sacred place, you should have a sacred participation. And, and so it is, it is on Sunday, right. Like, so you, you’re supposed to leave everything behind and enter into the presence of God. Right. So what, what you’re doing is you’re setting a container, right. But by saying a prayer, right, like you’re, you’re, you’re pruning your attention to attend, to worship the divine. Right. And everybody does that together. Right. So everybody’s in the same spirit, right. And either they’re capable of manifesting this, right. And they will amplify each other, right. They will lift each other up. Or if, if there’s a dissonance, right, for whatever reason, they will spread the attention, right. And, and they will corrupt or desecrate the sanctity of the container. Yeah. You have, and then you’ll have like buildings with people. Like if I were to start going to churches, the, there would be people there and there would be a spirit there and there’d be, and there’d be whatever’s happening there is already happening there. And, and it’s, and it can be, it will be different at every location based on who’s there. There’s a different seriousness or a different, you know, there’s all kinds of, but there’s a different spirit, right. Right. And what you want is, is that that spirit is as close to the Holy Spirit as you can manifest. One of the, one of the secular ways I’ve been trying to say it is there’s, there’s a, there’s mind, there’s worldview, there’s identity. It’s all, it’s, and it’s mixing. You can, you can also say, you can use word culture, but I like being able to try to translate for different people with different language. I like trying to do that, but yeah, I get spirit, like I understand spirit, that word. Right. So, so yeah, the, the worldview would, would, would be the, the grammar, right? That, that contains your participation. Like it, it, it signifies the meaning of things. And if you want to have communion, right, you need to share the worldview. Like if you don’t, if you don’t share the worldview or at least the part of the world that you’re participating in, right, the view on that. And that’s why I use the word container, right? Because containers can be manifested somewhat separate from worldview, not completely separate, right? But, but you, you can, you can make rules, right? Like people can enter the soccer field from different backgrounds and they can play a game. It’s, it’s not necessary for them to, to be indoctrinated in, in the whole culture in order to participate in soccer, right? Right. But in church, I would argue that it is necessary to be indoctrinated because else you’re not in the right relationship. Like, like you’re just missing, missing the point. Um, and so identity, right, is in some sense, I think inherited from the container, right? So we were talking about office, right? You can say a role instead, right? Like you’re playing a role and the role is conveying your identity, right? But, but the role is, is happening in negotiation, right? With what you participate in, right? So if, if, if you got called up to the altar to say something or something in church, right? Your role changes, right? Because you’re no longer a passive participant, you’re not active, right? And you have, you have a certain responsibility, right? And, and so your identity changes, your conception of yourself changes, but the conception of that others have of you changes as well, right? And then we can either fulfill that role properly, right? We can have the capacity to do that or we can fail miserably, right? And well, that’s, and I wouldn’t make it binary. There’s just because there’s like, yeah, yeah, but, but, but I, I’m just trying to make the contrast. Like, yeah, I’m not making absolute quite. Yeah. Right. And that’s, that’s maybe where the mind comes in, right? Like, like, I would, I would use the word embodiment for where you use mine, right? But it’s like, okay, can I embody that role? Right? Like, is there a way for me to participate in, in this identity, right? And not, not everybody is going to do the same thing, right? So, so for example, you could say, well, give testimony about the glory that you experienced yesterday, right? And then someone would dance, like someone else would sing a song, right? Someone else would tell a story and, and someone else would draw a graph on, on, on the board, right? Like there’s, there’s many ways where you can fulfill that role, even though your participation is completely different. Okay. There’s, it seems like there’s a, all the ways that you do that, there would be, they would resonate better with some people than other people because of differences. And then when you were talking about worldview, like they’re needing to be some kind of common worldview. That’s where it’s like, I imagine like we all have different worldviews in its whole, and then there can be overlap. And then, so there has to be something there that you share, doesn’t have to be the whole thing that’s shared. And the question would be how much of it needs to be shared. And earlier you had mentioned, you know, the, the importance, I think you said the word Holy Spirit. You’re talking, I mean, you’re talking about containers, thus, and then in another video you talk about vessels. So those two mean something very similar. And there’s something about that Holy Spirit, the thing that we perceive as the Holy Spirit is going to be related to our worldview. Yes, right. Yes. Right. So, so I, I made a comment about symbolism earlier on Twitter. And I said, let’s see if I can remember. Symbolism is, okay, I’m going to have to look it up here. Symbolism is capturing of spiritual principles in embodied relational qualities. And so you could say, right, like what, what is an apple towards a human? Right. Like, like it has a certain appeal because it’s red, it draws attention, right. Like it’s the promise of, well, it’s actually not an apple, right. But whatever. Like there, there’s a fruit, right. Like it’s sweet, right. Like it’s, it’s the promise of, of something joyful, if not good. Right. And, so that puts me in a certain relationship, right. So then I can understand the apple as, as something. And then when the apple has a meaning in the story, right, it’s connected to other. It will, it will depend on your experience too. Like you could have never eaten an apple in your life. Right. Right. Yes. Well, but, but, but you don’t need to have the experience of having eaten an apple to imagine what the apple means. I don’t know. This experience thing is really important. Yeah. Yeah. But for fake, he talks about this idea of accept. Right. So acceptation says you, you have a knowing, right. A participation in being that that’s the way that I, I use knowing now you participate in being in a way in an, in an arena, right. In a container. And then you go to a different container and you recognize that you can have a similar participation in the other container. So it’s a, there’s developmental stages, which can allow that, but it’s not in all of us. No, I think it has to be in all of us. To the same degree. Let me add that. Right. Right. I agree. Right. But that’s, that’s again, right. Some arenas are very different than other arenas. Like I could probably go grab a stranger living in like a high rise in a big city and drop them in the jungle. They might have a problem. Right. Yes. But right. Like I could take the person out of the jungle and drop them into the big city. They might do a little better. Yeah. But they can walk at both places. Even though at one place they’re walking on sand and the other place they’re walking on pavement. It’s a, my guess. Yeah. The, your experiences are important and they’re connected to your arena, your environment. There’s a, there’s a relevance and yeah, sometime like there’s some things we can’t think unless we have had been in the right arena and had the right experience. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So that, that is a problem. You mentioned symbols and I was just like, that’s like, sometimes it’s, it can be difficult for me to get a symbol to, uh, like I remember learning about the middle finger and just thinking someone, a kid on a playground and I was like five years old, it’s like telling me about the middle finger. And I’m just like, there’s no way, there’s no way that this is going to get me in trouble. And, you know, and, and so it’s been like that for me, uh, most of my life is that there are these symbols, um, that are true. They’re given more weight than it seems they should be given. They’re good. They’re good. Yeah. They’re giving more significance than it seems they should be given. Right. So, so, so there’s two aspects, right? Cause we have fantasy, right? And we have a true relationship to, to reality. Right. Like, so, so everything that’s not the true relationship is, is some sense fantasy, right? Like, like at least partially, right? It might, might be partially true, but like partial fantasy or complete fantasy. Yeah. And maybe there’s more aspects, but I’m trying to follow I’m following. Well, it’s just either, either it fits, right? Or it doesn’t fit, right? And, and there’s a usefulness, like there’s a usefulness, right? So like it’s something like it’s to the degree that it is useful. And there’s an aspect of missing the mark. Well, yeah, and the, yeah, it’s, um, depending on what you aim at, right? That’s right. No, no, that’s completely in there, but, but it’s necessarily true. Right. So when, when we’re looking at, at the middle finger, right? Like that, that is a cultural thing, right? Like that. As is clothing. Yeah. But clothing is less cultural than the middle finger. Cause clothing is, is an extension, right? Clothing can be useful, can be more useful. Right. But it’s also a natural extension of, of her or her skin or whatever. Right. Like, it’s a form of shelter, right? It can protect you from the elements. It can be useful in an arena, you know, but it’s also a means of presenting yourself, right? That’s the ornaments. That’s the ornamentation. It’s, it’s in the symbols. Like once you present yourself, you’re getting into this world of symbols at that point. Yeah. But, but like Adam and Eve covered themselves, right? Like I think the reason like action that you take when you become self-aware. So here we could run the experiment. We could go to a nudist colony and you could raise children and you would see that, Oh, humans aren’t naturally ashamed. It’s the environment that causes the human to be ashamed about their nakedness. So it tells you that this religion is one in which people had already started clothing themselves. Like, I just think that that the object of shame is moving. Shame is there, but shame for the reason of nakedness. No, but it’s also, it’s always nakedness that is causing shame, right? Because a nakedness is uncoveredness, right? And we, we are ashamed about things that get exposed that, that we have covered ourselves, right? That we have hidden, like that’s the things that we are ashamed of. So we, we wear spiritual clothes, right? Like I’m not telling you a bunch of things about myself because like, I don’t think that’s appropriate, right? And if, if you just start saying them right now, I’d be blown away. It’s like, like, this is, this is magic and evil at the same time. Right? I know it’s, it’s a, yeah, I guess, and this might be like a neurodiversity thing for me is a, where I’ll have to have my wife tell me you should not talk about that because I don’t have much shame, right? I’ll talk about the things which will, that, you know, she, she thinks I should have shame for, but maybe I don’t have as much shame as, as a neuro-typical person, right? Well, but it just makes me different. It’s all, it’s just, I’m on the fringe on that one. I think shame is, is mis-framing it. I’ve been reading Romans lately and Paul’s talking about eating food, right? And then at a certain point he’s saying you should not eat foods that makes people around you uncomfortable, even though it’s good for you, right? Like, and, and because that’s not love, right? So it’s, it’s not out of shame that you shouldn’t bring things up, right? Like it’s not because you, you cannot participate in, in that spiritual food because you might be able to, because you’re at a higher level, right? Like at the Pope level. I’m not sure Paul’s right. I mean, the thing is, is I, I do make my children uncomfortable. I do like this feeling of discomfort is like the thing that informs us. Like this, that negative, we talked about positive and negative. It’s like, it is useful to the right amount at the right time in the right situation. It’s not something you want to just, you don’t want to just go around making everyone uncomfortable, but it’s, it’s, it can be done in love, making people uncomfortable. It can be done in love. Yes, I agree. I do that all the time. Yeah. You’re not, but maybe I’m misunderstanding what Paul’s point is, right? No, no, but, but, like you said, it can be done, right? But when we’re talking about rules, right? Like what is the rule that you’re assuming towards your child? Well, you’re an educator at that point, right? You’re saying I’m going to put you in a, in a situation that you don’t like in order for you to, when you actually have to face that situation in a serious manner, you have the tools to relate to it. Right. So you’re making an executive decision for them, right? And so when we’re talking about love, you can only make executive decisions for people that you have an intimate relationship with. So here’s, there’s a point here. Jordan Peterson, when he’s talking about the Garden of Eden, he’s talking, and he, he mentions, you know, walking, you know, yeah. And when you’re in the presence of God, you will feel ashamed, which it leads me to think it’s like people who are good at walking with God, dancing with God, will cause people to feel ashamed. Oftentimes you will end up being murdered and killed or ignored or something excluded. And so also there, you can lead by example. So when, like when people are stuffing pleasurable things in their orifices, eating food they shouldn’t be eating and you kind of try to practice restraining, you can cause discomfort in them, which might cause them shame. And it can be a learning opportunity. Like, so there’s a question like who should, like, yeah, when should you not be learning? When should you, when should you try to allow the people to be comfortable and miss that opportunity for learning to happen by leading by example? When should you sacrifice your walking with God for the benefit of your communion with the person? You know? Well, well, so yes. So, so basically there’s, there’s a problem, right, with saying that what you do will lead to something, right? You, you don’t know the result of your action. Right? So being intentional in that way, assuming a result of your action is wrong. Right. But if you, like, should we always try to embody, you use the word logos, but dance with God, should we always be trying to dance with God? And what does that look like? Does it mean that we do what Paul’s suggesting or does it mean something different? Like that maybe we make people uncomfortable when, as we walk with God? Well, but okay. So first of all, doing- And I don’t know what’s going to happen. You’re right about that. I don’t know what’s going to happen. There’s a distinction between passive, passive things and active things, right? So I don’t, I don’t restrain myself for the purpose of teaching other people things. That’s just ludicrous. I’m like, I don’t do that. I restrain myself because it’s good. Right? And like, I’m not going to unrestrain myself to make other people feel better. Or like maybe in a really, really exceptional case, because I would betray my principle to do that. Right? Like I would betray the- what’s the word? Man, I lost the word. But I would betray the principles that I uphold, right? In order for something to appease people. I’m not like, no, like appeasement is not good. Like appeasement is lying for the sake of peace. There is a tension here though. I think we can agree there’s some kind of a tension between what is going to cause the people you’re in communion with to be uncomfortable or comfortable. There is a tension there. I feel it. That’s why it makes me stressful. It makes me stressed a little bit when I- I’ve encountered it so much, this tension. Yeah. But like what does that mean? When you are a person of integrity, and you get integrity by upholding certain principles. Because if you uphold the principles, that means that you’re reliable in your expression. And the means by which the outside can form you is restraint. Right? And when you go and participate with people that have expectations that conflict with your principles, right? Now you’re going to make a decision. Right? Do you want to commune with these people? Or do you want to uphold your principles? Like as a Christian, you got to say, God first. Like, sorry. Like there are certain principles I just cannot betray. And if that means that I cannot commune with you, so be it. And that means that you will judge them. Right? Even if it’s just you walking away after an invitation, that’s you judging them. Because you’re saying your participation is not worthy of my time or my being. Or in other words- Or I’m not ready yet. Right? I’m not ready to- But then you wouldn’t walk away. If you’re not ready yet, then you’d give an apology for saying like, I’m not worthy. We brushed against this topic. If you’re an alcoholic, you might want to keep alcohol out of the house, but you might become someone who could then go to a place where people are drinking alcohol. So there might be stages of development where I can’t be with the temptation. But maybe once I mature and I transform, become closer to God, maybe then I can be next to the temptation and it won’t be contagious for me anymore. Right? We use that word contagious. So yeah, it can depend on where you’re at. Yeah. But why would you do that? To lead by example? You would put yourself in temptation to what? To prove to other people that you can be in temptation. That sounds like your risk to me. If that’s the reason why, then that would be wrong. But if the reason is to try to help people take their next step to become a better person, I don’t think that has to be hubris. I think that can be love. Yeah, but why can’t you express that love in a different way? You’re making a scenario where your good action is contingent upon doing something bad. And I’m not saying that never happens, right? Because I think you got something in your mind. The bad thing is, yeah, like what’s coming to mind for you about doing something bad, where you would, like I’m just like, I have things coming to my mind to, you know, we’re using these words and then there’s scenarios or situations that come to mind. And maybe there’s different scenarios and situations that come to mind for you. And so I don’t know if I’m understanding what you mean about I’m doing something bad because I am not separating myself from those people or that situation. So there’s some situations where I’m guessing you’re saying we need to always avoid, is what I’m hearing you say. I’m not going to be absolutist, right? I don’t believe in absolutes. But you should be principled in not putting yourself into situations of temptation. Like that’s a good, when you’re progressing spiritually, you will get to a point where that is the right way to be. As you mature, you can get to a point where you can go back to that trap, that pit that just grabs people and possesses them and you can cast out demons. But that’s a level. That’s not most people. I agree that the wounded healer is real, right? The what is real? Wounded healer, right? Like I suffered something and because I suffered it, I gained experience and I can use this experience to help people who struggle with the same thing. Like I think it’s necessary and I think it’s part of how God’s glory manifests. Right? So it’s beautiful. The problem with the wounded healer is that you can get caught in the zeal, right? Of saving people. That’s one problem. Yeah, there’s many problems. There’s many potential traps and that’s definitely one of them for sure. Right. So when you’re talking about exposing yourself to the thing that wounded you, I would ask you the question is like, can you not heal these people who have the same wound to not exposing yourself to that? Like why is that exposure necessary? Will you say that one more time? Why can’t like why would you if you’re an alcoholic, right? Like why would you have to go into a bar to help other alcoholics? Why can’t you go to AA? Yeah, I think there’s a right place to go. I’ve talked with Chad about this and I’m a fisherman and so when I’m with my fishing rod and I’m at a spot, I can look around and say that’s where the fish is most likely going to be and I can catch a fish and do a pretty good job and so the recovering alcoholic, depending on where they’re at, I think they can go to these like there’s certain places you can go. Now you’re presupposing that you can catch fish. There are places where fish are more likely to be than other places. Right, but does that mean that you can catch them there? It’s not guaranteed, but there’s a probability. Okay, so how do we extend this fishing metaphor? I’m pretty good at fishing. So let’s say there’s salmon in the river going up the river at a time. So you’re like, okay, I need to be at the salmon, right? But the salmon are like, I need to go up river. Eating is not important right now. I got to get to where I need to be. So you might be at the place where there’s a lot of fish, but that doesn’t mean that you have a bigger chance catching the fish because the way that they’re participating blocks their ability to hear. They might not. Yeah, I agree. So they go into the bar. I think I’ve heard Chad talk about it. Going to the bar is not the best place to go and talking to someone who’s like totally drunk is not the right time to talk to somebody. And so yeah, there’s, and that’s kind of what I mean. It’s what I’m pointing out. It’s like there are some places where it’s just not the right time. It’s not the right place. There are things you can do. I think like you can say, hey, here’s my number if you want to call, if you want to talk about this. And you don’t even have any expectations that they will. But yeah, so there’s different strategies depending on where you’re at. Well, but as a general principle, I think that going to the place where you had your trauma is not the place where people will have the ears to hear because that’s where they’re stuck. They’re captivated by the trauma by definition. Yeah, there’s a yeah, I mean, I’m not disagreeing with you. But this is like, I think it’s probably like a really important topic. Like my buddy said he’s been going to the gym. And when he’s at the gym, he’s trying to encourage, he’s trying to encourage, he said, God put it on his heart to encourage three people, you know, when he’s at the gym. And so he’s been going and encouraging people. And it’s like, so it’s like you can, you can go wherever you’re at, there’s people who have interest and you can attempt to embody the right way of being in order to encourage. That seems like a more straightforward way of doing things. It’s, it seems like you will have more success than going into the pit and started and, and say you need you need to get in shape. Dragging people out by their hairs, right? That’s what needs to happen, right? He compared it to going door to door and saying, have you been saved? He’s like, right, it doesn’t feel right to do that. Like when you grab someone by their hairs, right, like the likelihood that when you let go and say, well, now you should do this, that they’re going to listen is close to zero, right? And so like, in that sense, you got to give it over to God, right? Like, like people need to be willing to change, right? Like, like even, even this was relevant to parents too, like, as a father with children, like it’s relevant as a father with children too, is like, sometimes the child is not in the state of mind where they’re going to listen. Yeah, there’s all it’s, there are these patterns like this. Yeah. Well, now we can make the step back to the relationship to God, right? So it’s like, well, God is not going to drag us by our hair, right? And we have states in which we know that we’re not going to listen. Right. Right. Like, and so when, how do you, how do you build, embody the right relationship to God? Well, you have to recognize these aspects of yourself, right? Like, like, in what way am I to in the way? What, what are my means of, of fighting, right? Like, so maybe I should just pray God, please, let me find humility or something, or like, just pray for, for having a relationship that you’re not able to manifest right now. Right. And it’s like, only if I have that relationship, then I can actually listen to God and proceed to the next level. I would say for me, it was like, I would aim really high and then go in and attempt to do the naive thing, not understand what I’m doing and aiming very high, making mistakes, doing errors, like, you know, having arrogance, you know, for sure. And then eventually just being able to ask myself, why did, why wasn’t I able to have success? And then being willing to reconsider, reconsider, like, what actually works and what doesn’t work. Like, it’s interesting that going out and attempting to just participate and have success, no matter what you’re doing can end up providing feedback about the proper way of being. Yeah. Right. So that goes back to the example of you’re trying to embody the pope, right? When you’re not ready to embody the pope, like, that’s going to be a disaster. And I think Jesus says this, right? Like, you got to lower yourself in order to reach high. Right? So like, there’s the humiliation, right? Like, getting, looking up, right, from the ground allows you to see how high the place is. Like, when you just walk up to the height and you don’t recognize how much it’s lifted up, right? Like, how much weight there is on your shoulders, how deep you can fall. You can’t account for proper participation at the height because you cannot evaluate your actions correctly. So there are, you know, there are these, like, real places where there are traps, like, where you can become possessed by demons, so to speak. And then there are like these places in the mind that are similar. And I think we all can, there’s different ones. And some people, you’re talking about the wounded healer. And it’s like, that’s, I would say that for me, wounded healers has something to do with the perspective of just being having a lot of arrogance. And, like, and so I can talk from that perspective and those experiences of doing that. But, but yeah, eventually, like when you have a lot of arrogance, and you aim high, and you and very high, you, and you see yourself as like being at the top, and you’re being condescending towards everyone. And then it doesn’t work. It’s like, you can lie to yourself, or you can try to actually make it work and adjust as needed. Like, so it’s a, but I think there’s other kinds of traps as well. Like, there’s people who are, like, for me, it was like, too arrogant, you could have people that don’t have enough pride, right? They don’t, they don’t have enough confidence. There’s no such thing as an aspect of us where you can have, where you should have zero. Like, you can have too little of anything, and you can have too much of anything, including pride. I think there’s just bad frames. No, I think there’s just bad frames. Okay. I think there’s ways that you should always avoid, like they’re just bad. This is what I keep hearing from you. It’s, I would say the thing, especially because we’re, it’s being recorded, like, I think to the general audience and the world and majority of people, you were right. It’s like the best advice for most people. Like, I’ve had to realize I’m reading through Jordan Peterson’s book, and it’s like he targeted a large group of people, a large audience, and he’s trying to help and do good. There’s some things that you can’t learn until you’ve learned these things. Like, so what you’re saying is good, and it’s good for most people. All people need to do go through this thing that you’re talking about, where you need to avoid these things. Like, that is a stage of development. Yeah, but I think, right, like, even if you’re an alcoholic, right, and you’re physically addicted, right, like you still need to uphold the principle of I need to avoid alcohol, even though you’re taking it, right? And that’s why we need to be forgiven. Like, we need to forgive ourselves for participating in the wrong behavior, even though it’s necessary. And only if we try to redeem it continuously, right? So in order to redeem something, you have to renounce the bad behavior. Like, you can’t redeem a thing if you don’t renounce the bad behavior, right? But that doesn’t mean that when we do that, we’re immediately perfect. The bad behavior, like, there’s no such thing about, like, an absolutely bad behavior, right? Like, it’s… No, it is. No, there is. Like, you’re… You can talk about a specific situation and say, this is bad and this is wrong. No, no, no, no. Like, because when you’re doing that, you’re taking a framing where you’re like, well, this action can lead to the good, right? That’s effectively what you’re saying. Right? But you have to realize that when you take an action, you’re not taking another action. Right. There’s a trade-off. There’s always a trade-off. And so you can say, well, I can redeem this action, but you’re ignoring that you could take a good action instead. And so, like, this is not an option because there’s a space, an option space that you should always aim towards. Yeah. I feel like sometimes I have a hard time communicating the thought, but it’s a pretty complex thought with regard to… I think, like, I’m reminded of Jacob talking about, should you cut someone open and take out their heart? Right. And it’s like, well, if you’re a heart surgeon saving the life of a child, then yes. Right. So that’s what I’m getting at with. Yeah. It’s like the absolute wrongness of a behavior. I think what, ideally, in the ideal, when you’re talking about the ideal is like, who the hell is going to reach the ideal? Yeah. But the problem is, right, like you’re making it one thing. Am I? Right. Like the cutting open and taking out the heart is one thing. Like the cutting open and taking out the heart is always bad. The putting back in a new heart is good. Right. It might be so good that it makes okay the cutting open. Right. But they’re separate things. I’ll point back at Genesis 1. Yeah. I’ll point back at Genesis 1. This was good. This was so. This was good. This was good. And as a whole, it was very good. Right. But yeah, cutting out the heart on its own, bad. Right. Or it’s so, you know, it’s like not good. But you see how it can be part of a whole that is very good. It can be a very part of a very good. Yeah. But do you see how the framing is important? And how it is important to, even if you’re a surgeon, you have to keep cutting out a heart is bad in your framing of the world. Because if you don’t, then you start saying, well, it’s not no big deal. Let’s just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But there’s a, my nephew, I think was having a heart surgery and they had this heat instrument to do cauterization. And I think it ended up, they didn’t treat that as if it was bad. And then they ended up burning him and he got infected. And so yeah, the surgeon has to remember this thing, this thing, this cauterizing flesh, you know, it’s, it’s part of a whole frame of trying to take care of this, this child. Right. So yeah, I get your point. I think it’s a good point. Yeah. And so, so what we’re talking about is, is like different levels, right? So there’s, there’s actions that are embedded in a bigger telos, right? Right. For example, right? Like drinking alcohol is bad or drinking more alcohol than a certain level, whatever. I’m not going to make the absolute right. You can be in communion, right? Right. Right. You couldn’t be taking a medicine that has alcohol in it because it was, it helped pull out the, what was medicinal, right? And alcohol is natural to our bodies, right? So, so the level of alcohol is just participating in the body, right? Like, so, so, and like when you eat fruit, there’s also alcohol in the fruit, right? Like, so alcohol isn’t bad in and of itself, right? But, but like taking alcohol for the sake of alcohol is almost always bad, right? And, and then, or doing anything for the sake of the thing itself, without, you know, the right telos, you know, what we might agree on the telos. Yeah. Right. But, but when, when you say, well, I, I am addicted to alcohol and I need to take alcohol so that I can remain functional, even though I’m working on reducing my dependence on it, right? Then that happens. You participate in the bigger story, right? And then the bigger story redeems the bad action, right? Right. And so, so. I’m not good at communicating, Manuel, so I’m appreciate, I’m glad you’re here to clear that up. Well, like, like there’s a complexity in the world, right? And people can intuit this complexity, right? Often in, in clear examples, right? But when you get into the confusion, like the heart surgeon with the burning of, of, of the colorizing, right? Like when it’s so detailed. But you can, you can come back, like, I think when you are aiming at God and trying to avoid sin, trying to avoid missing the mark, you can then become blind. Yeah. You can become blind to the fact that there are, there are others who aren’t doing it either. Or they aren’t doing it. They aren’t aimed. They don’t have the same, like I’ve done this. I’ve become blind to the fact that other people aren’t like me. I’ve done this my whole life. It’s, it’s something I’ve had to learn only in the last few years, I guess. But again, right? Like in the way that you’re describing it, you’re, you’re acting like that’s a thing that you can do. And I would just contest that. No, it’s no. Right? Like you, you can cultivate proper attendance, right? So you can cultivate your attention to worship, right? You can cultivate being in love through planting seeds, right? You can cultivate all of these things, but you can’t do them, right? Like you can’t manifest them out of your own will. Like they have to participate in God’s will to be true. And so when, when you say I’m in a situation and I try to do this, it’s like, no, you, you gotta let the spirit lead you. You can’t, you can’t do it. If you, if you’re doing it, you’re doing it wrong. Yeah, I, yeah, I guess there’s, I’m, I’m, I have a skill of being able to empty my mind. But I was, I’m getting, I’m getting right now, there’s like, maybe when I’m emptying my mind, I’m, I should be trying to invite the Holy Spirit. Right. So it’s not just an empty. So I know how to empty my mind and then I have to remember to invite as well. Right. Right. And this is my, my criticism to the Eastern traditions, or at least how they’re practiced in the West is like, like, like this is again, the identification against, right? Or, or the negative motivation, right? So if I empty, empty my mind, I’m not doing the bad things. I’m not doing the bad things. Like, okay, fair. Like you’re not like completely. There’s not a lot of meaning and purpose in that either. Right. But you’re not doing the good things either. Right. Right. And like, like how do you, you have an empty mind? How are you recognizing the good things? Hmm. Let’s see. Oh wait, their passions. It’s actually called, I think they will uphold. Sometimes you can be tempted to uphold equanimity, right? As like the, the ideal. And instead of, for example, I guess, upholding like joy or, you know, something, you say use the word glory. Celebration, right? Love, right. Gratitude. Yeah. Gratitude, right? Like, like those, those are like the basic, the basic things, right? And what are they? Well, they’re means of directing your attention, right? So, so gratitude is recognizing what’s unrecognized in the moment. Right. Love is planting seeds for potential and cultivating the seeds. Right. And what was the last one? Oh yeah. There was joy. Celebration, celebration, right? Like celebration is participation in the eating of the fruits of your cultivation. Right. There’s a, there’s the other side too. Like there’s a negative side. Like I will, I like, I want to be able to do that. And I also want to be able to have some feelings of guilt and that there are things I can do better. There are like, I don’t want to just. Why do you associate that with guilt? It’s, yeah, there’s the, I think the guilt and shame I feel is related to the fact that maybe it’s the perfectionist kind of thing. It’s like, I want to be better and I’m not, but that sounds like a lack of forgiveness if you’re guilty. It’s, yeah, maybe I’m aiming at things that are more than I can do. And then I think I’m speaking some things that my wife says too. I can be aiming at things that’s more than I can do and then I have to be, and I shouldn’t be like, you know, it can sound like I’m blaming the world for not wanting to do these really difficult things together. Right. Right. But are these difficult things, the will of God? What’s that? Are these difficult things, the will of God, or are they your will? Yeah, it’s the question. How do we know? That’s the kind of. I know like they’re not, else they would have happened. Like, what did that mean? There’s there are things that will happen in the future. Right. But then it doesn’t, then trying to make them happen right now, it doesn’t. But do you think yet? So here’s like, where do dreams and thoughts and ideas come from? Are these the same as visions? And was that from God? And I can get to the point where I say that none of that’s me and it’s all God. Right. I didn’t, I didn’t make God made me and made every dream and thought I’ve ever had. And there’s been learning and changing hopefully toward something better, being able to dance better with God. And so these things that I’ve, the dreams I’ve had and the visions I’ve had is like, well, how relevant are they? Are they what God wanted me to have? And how do I integrate them? It’s like, it’s a, yeah. Yeah. Okay. But you can reframe it. Is it me or is it God? I don’t know. Do you have it calling? Do I have a calling? Yeah. I mean, I’m an engineer. I’m a calling, I’m a build. I’m just going to say no, because you would have answered immediately if you had one. Right? Well, the thing is, is like, I can do a lot of things. I’m the, I can, yeah, I can go into a situation that I’ve never been in and I can learn to do it better than most people can. That’s not what a calling is. Right? Like a calling is something that’s really far away. That’s drawing you towards it. Yeah. I mean, the thing that first came to my mind is the thing that’s embarrassing to say, right? Is that it’s a piece on earth. Um, that’s the calling is peace on earth. Okay. Okay. Fine. Okay. Peace on earth. Great. Right. So now you have a framing, right? Yeah. For your life. I’ve had that framing for years. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But like, if you have that framing, right now you have an ability to judge, right? Like, is what I’m doing participating in manifesting that calling or not? Right. Right. Right. And is my dream manifesting my ability to fulfill that calling or increasing my ability or not? Right. The struggle is if you have a vision of, of the future, um, you can become, if you don’t have the patience and the gentleness and the kindness, that perfect vision, you can end up then, uh, having all kinds of, uh, becoming someone who’s not going to help create it. Right. And so that’s why I was talking about a calling, not a vision. Right. Well, the, uh, what’s the difference? Well, the calling is, is that which draws you, right? Like when I call you, right, your attention gets drawn to me. Right. Right. And then I say, I make a proposition. Do you want to participate with me this way? And I can, I lay it out, right? That’s the vision. I’m articulating the vision. Like I’m articulating how the potential could manifest, which is necessary, right? Like it’s, it’s unavoidable, but that’s a different layer, right? Like it’s separate. Right. And, and, and the vision is, uh, what should be, I’m not going to say is, right? The vision should be a participatory understanding of how you could, um, respond to the calling. Right. I mean, the visions can happen, um, like against my will, right? It’s not my will in which I received the visions. It’s so it’s, and they can be like, uh, like the sign of the son of man, for example, like if you could imagine that you have seen the vision of the sign of the son of man, and you were the one who wrote all this stuff down, it’s like, so that’s, that’s also kind of what I mean by vision is like, you don’t even know what the hell that thing is. You just, you, and you try to describe it and it’s for the, you know, so that people can maybe recognize it when they see it. Right. But, uh, you also need to recognize it yourself. Well, if you, if you were the one who actually saw the sign of the son of man, which is in like the book of revelation, for example, and we assume that this is what might, what happened and like, like how would you even, how would you even recognize it? If it’s this thing that’s thousands of years down the road in this world where there’s like, you know, internet and helicopters, like it’s a, it’s, if you were in that arena, you would not know what the hell a helicopter is. And if you tried to, if you tried to describe, I don’t understand, but if you had a vision of the helicopter 2000 years ago and you attempted to explain it and write it down for people, it’s like nobody, it’s like, how would you even describe it? How would you even, why is this important? Like I’m, I’m a little bit confused. Like, like why do, why would you, why would you think that God would communicate in a language that you can’t understand? Because God can, I mean, if the, if, so if you believe that the Bible is, has, uh, something about talking about the future, like the future, even our future right now, if you believe that’s what’s in the Bible, I am talking about the future right now. Like, like, like talking about the future is no big deal. Like, but the, so it’s, uh, there’s an inability to describe what’s in the future to, to, to everyone right here and right now. It’s very difficult to do that. No, no, you can describe it. They might not understand, which is a different problem. Right. So there’s a thing called like a convective heat engine, which the taller, the better, which you can put in the middle of a desert. And it then brings about water and rivers and it can transform deserts into, uh, into a, uh, into a, uh, a place, a garden, you know, garden of Eden, something like a garden of Eden. And I got connected with someone who was given this vision and it’s like, and I’ve had visions of these kinds of things as well. And so for me to be like, how do I communicate that to people and invite people to participate in the building of it? Like, why do you need to communicate this to people? So if you feel called to create peace on earth and you have coincidences, which allow that show you what this is, how you can do it then, and you’ve, and like you, you have like multiple visions. Hold on. Okay. Like, okay. This is where I, I, I found a disagreement. Okay. What makes you think you can do that? It’s not it. When I say you, I should say we, it’s not something I can do. Well, okay. What makes you think you can organize the we? It’s a, I can put out an invitation to participate. It’s not up to me. No, it is up to you because you, you are the holder, right? You are responsible for, for manifesting that vision. So it is up to you. I can learn. And that’s what I like. So that’s what I try to, every moment I’m in, I’m trying to, to transform and to become, I’m trying to prepare to be the kind of person that can do that. Right. But then as long as you’re not the person who can do that, all the other stuff is irrelevant. What is all the other stuff is irrelevant? Well, it doesn’t matter. As long as you can’t do it, it’s, it’s not relevant. Like you first need to become the person that’s capable of doing a thing before you start doing it. So as you improve every day, just with discipline and it adds up, you can eventually experience a breakthrough and you don’t know when that breakthrough is going to happen. Right. So I could be today, it could be tomorrow. Yeah. You’ll know when it happens, but you gotta keep trying to get better and trying to do it. Right. But when the breakthrough happened, you can reorient your priority. But then you’d have to, and that’s the thing, like when I asked like, how do you know you’re dancing with God? How do I know you’re dancing with God? How do you know I’m dancing with God and to what degree that’s kind of, that’s, that’s part of it. It’s like, do, do people start uh, being, uh, coming out of their graves? You know, it’s like, how do you know? You know, it’s a, so it’s, I don’t know what it looks like when it happens as far as my role in it. Now I do have, I have plenty of, uh, I do have, I can put things out there about what, like there’s this mind reading technology that is coming that I just became aware of in March of this year. I think that’s going to be a part of it. I think the conductive heat engine that provides a reliable supply of water and can create a garden in the desert is part of it. Um, I think real political science is part of it. It’s like where we actually find, we create communities together where we are oriented toward God, walking toward God. Why would you put that in a political frame? Like, like I, I, the word political did something to you there. The word political did something. The word political does. Yes, it does. Because, because what is political, political implies design of social interaction. Right. And I’m like, no, that’s fundamentally wrong. You, you gotta do social interaction from the ground up. You cannot design it. If you design it, you’re, you’re corrupting it. So when you, um, there’s such thing as like wildfires and then there’s a way of interacting with forest and managing forest such that the wildfires become predictable. And so then you can have designs to do this. What’s that like magic exists? Like we, we can, we can do many magical things. So politics is this capacity to increase predictability such that all people have food, all people have water, all people have shelter, all people. Um, you, you know, no, no, no, no, that, that, that is an assumption that you’re making. And I’m going to say flat out no to that. Like, I don’t think is that you or is that like, is that the logos that you’re embodying when you say that? Like, like, like politics, no, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m making an authoritative data plane that politics cannot do that. Like things only manifest by the way you define politics. Right. Okay. Then, then, then maybe I have a wrong definition. But I mean, I mean, magic does it like what’s the, is there something that does it? Is there anything that does it? I can, I can solve the problem. Right. Thank you. So if politics is a tool that we can wield, right. Then I’m going to say no. If politics is not a tool that we can wield, then it’s not a tool we can wield and it’s misplaced attention. So if you’re saying that, it sounds like you’re saying that we’d want to use tools to create peace on earth. No, we use tools. We don’t wield them. What’s the difference between using and wielding? Well, if, if, if we’re wielding something, we’re imposing our will. Right. If we’re using something, we’re communing with it. Okay. I mean, I’m fine. I just have to learn your language. It’s, but yeah, I mean, because I’m using words in a way, which like, I think this is what happens sometimes is we can have disagreements because of, we’re using different, we’re using words in different ways, but I think. Yeah, no, no, no, no, but, but I, it’s not, I’m not disagreeing with the words. Right. So if, if you’re saying, right, like politics is, is, is the communion of people for the group purpose, right. Right. Politics is the way in which people commune in order to, who have a common interest and can work together. That’s the, that’s yeah. So it’s a tool that can be used to accomplish goals. One of which can be learning, one of which can be, you know, trying to increase the good fruit in the world. So many different kinds of good fruits in the world. But one of these things can be the destruction of the world. If you, yeah, for sure. If you get it wrong. So first of all, No, no, no, no, not getting it wrong. People can commune around destroying the world. Yes. Yes. Yes. You’re right. And you can do it intentionally and unintentionally. Right. So that means it might even happen if it might even happen on its own. Like, nobody actually wants to aims to, to prevent it. It can happen as well. But, well, I don’t, I don’t know about that, but because if everybody’s truly not willing to destroy the world, I think we actually will always prevent it. But, but, but, but the problem is, That’s a faith. That’s a faith. I’m okay. I mean, it’s a, it’s, it is a belief and there’s trade-offs for that belief. But yeah. Right. But, but, but the problem with this is, is that, so the tool of politics is not an inherent good, right? And so the good tools are inherently good. Okay. Well, so the goodness of politics is inherited by, from the people that participate in it. Exactly. Right. Okay. So when you’re saying politics, this is like, no, like you need the people, right. And then, I didn’t say politics. I said real political science, right? So what I mean by that is that it’s like, we are learning to use the tool better. That’s what science allows you to do. It allows you to learn how to science doesn’t allow me to be better. Me. I’m sorry. Like science doesn’t, doesn’t, it just depends on how you define science. It’s like, so science allows me to know how to build a fire, how to use fire to cook. No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I get that science has a relationship to technique, right? To technology, right? And that technology is useful for, for man. Yeah. And I actually like to combine that science and engineering together. Right. But science and engineering is still not telling me how to be a good person. No, it’s not. But okay. So, so science is not helpful. So it will tell you, it will allow you to, to see success and success rates, error and error rates in relation to a goal. So if you’re aiming, if you have an aim, you can use a scientific method to track success and error, success rate, error rate. Yeah. But I think that is the inappropriate relationship to all the important things. Why? Because science is a relationship to the quantities in the world and important things are based upon the quality. So you, so you don’t think science has anything to do with qualities. Nope. I guess, so yeah, I think good people need to use science and engineering. I agree. Like science and engineering is another tool. It’s just another tool and good people need to use it. Right. I agree. So what did we, what did we disagree about? Well, political science. Like, I don’t, I don’t think politics. I think it’s a trigger word. I think I’ve got one of your trigger words. I’m making, I’m making a claim here that if you try to science politics, that’s evil. Even like you’re basically saying good people will not attempt to use politics. No. I think people can use politics and use science. Good people will manifest good politics and they don’t need science for it. They, if they use, and this is the cool thing about real political science is that you and your worldview and people like you can go build a city and myself with my worldview and people like me can build a city and then we’ll be able to see who’s fruit, who’s producing better fruit. And that is science. Like that allows us. You won’t be able to see because what’s the standard by which you judge. The standard by which I judge will be everyone has food, water, shelter, and the amount of suffering. Oh, okay. So you’re making a utilitarian argument, a quantitative argument. Yeah. I like to bring it down to, man, it’d be nice if everybody had clean water. Specifically, I would, I think we could be without sickness and disease in the future. I mean, if that’s what you believe in it, it’s like, we won’t be in the same city trying to make a world without sickness and hunger. Right. Which means that we probably end up in war. It just means that the only way we would end up in war is if either one of us attempted to invade each other’s space and interfere with the other person’s goals. Yeah. And you think that won’t happen? It would depend on if there’s a conflict of interest, right? There is a conflict of interest. How is there a conflict of interest? Because there’s different principles being upheld. And we can’t live in separate areas? Nope. You can’t? Nope. Like we’re living on the same earth. We’re in contests. Like look at the climate change, right? But I’m saying there’s a way of being in which you produce good fruit and then you would end up saying, man, that’s some good fruit. And you wouldn’t want to destroy that which is providing good fruit. You would destroy the thing that’s actually like interfering with what you perceive to be good fruit. But if I’m providing the thing to you, but if you actually see me as producing good fruit, then you would… Yeah, but I won’t. You don’t know that. No, I will think that what you’re doing is evil. But you don’t know that, right? You don’t know. You can’t predict what’s going to happen. I’ve made the proclamation right now that that is going to be true. I’m assuming that you’re being facetious. No, I’m not. Because you’re making a contradiction between… You were saying things earlier like, I don’t know… When I do an action, I don’t know what’s going to happen because of that action. But now you’re speaking as if you know what’s going to happen. No, like for me, it’s irrelevant what’s going to happen. It’s irrelevant what’s going to happen. Yeah. I don’t… It’s like your actions are disconnected from a goal. No, they’re not disconnected. They’re not disconnected because then I’d be delusional, right? We’re all delusional to different degrees, like everyone. Fair enough. But that’s not the argument that I make it. My actions are not disconnected from the goal, right? But my actions are towards the good, right? And then the goals, right, or the fruits will happen. They would just appear. Like they’re generated by me moving towards God. They’re not generated by me making them happen. There is no you. Well, there is a you, but the way in which I’m me is looking up, not looking down. So I’m looking to participate in the right spirit, right? And that’s where my responsibility lies, right? And then if I’m participating in the right spirit, I will have good fruits, right? So anytime you make a claim, you could be wrong, right? Every claim you make, you could be wrong. Yeah, I don’t think so. I think there’s claims that you can make that are just necessarily true. Because one plus one equals two. Like that’s going to be necessarily true. In binary, a different frame, it doesn’t equal two. But that’s not the same situation. No, you just changed the frame on me and say, well, in this different frame, but that’s not the claim that I made because I made the claim in a different frame. Right. You can’t, you can’t, when you act in a way which you attempt to impose a frame on others, then you’re going to have enemies, right? Yes. Yeah. And so that could be nice if we could operate in different frames and not be enemies. Yeah, we can do that all day, but then we can’t commute. And that’s, you know, we can also… That’s the intimacy crisis, what you’re not talking about. Like this is what everybody is doing, right? Everybody’s walking around and is like, oh, yeah, I’m tolerating you being crazy. And like, I know that you’re crazy, but I’m not going to tell you. I’m not going to challenge you, right? I’m just going to let you be. I’m not going to make you uncomfortable. Right. And I’m just going to let you be and I’m just going to do my own thing and pretend if I don’t bear responsibility for the world and the people around. Right. Like that’s what’s happening. And I’m like, no, that’s evil. Like our purpose is to commune. Right. And if I refuse communion, that’s a bad thing. Like that’s not love. Right. So like I reject that. Right. Like if you are in that frame, right, if you are in the individualist mindset, you are in some sense, well, you’re possessed by an enemy spirit, an evil spirit. Right. And you can end up in the different frames, you can end up learning, growing and changing, and then coming back into communion at a future date. Yes. And you, and if you’re humble, you don’t know how much you changed and how much they changed. If you’re not humble, you’re going to say, oh, they, they’re going to change and they’re going to make, they’re going to come realize what I know, you know, say it depends on how humble you are on that. Right. But what you said is possible if you’re in the same church. Right. So, cause whatever frame you’re in, it’s always going to be below God if you’re in the church. Right. So you can go explore when you’re in the church and then you can come back. And because you stay, you still uphold what I uphold. Are we in the same church? So if, if, if I, if, um, with the things that I shared, does that make me in a different church? Does it put me in a different church? No, I don’t think you’re in the church. If you’re, if you’re pursuing that, you’re not. Right. So we’re in a, and, and then, so the way for peace on earth is that different churches can co-exist. No, I, no, I think there’s only one church. And you think yours is the one. I, I am living my life as if I would be part of that church. Yes. Right. And you could be wrong. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yes. I could. So I’m aiming, I’m aiming at peace on earth as the thing. And so, you know, if you’re wrong, uh, you’re not in the same church. And the, I would want my church to be able to produce the good fruit, which would show the wrong churches, the errors of their way. Yeah. But you don’t, you don’t live, you don’t live by sight. You live by faith. Like that’s like, if you, if you don’t accept that. You judge by their fruit. You judge by the food, but you live by faith. You have to integrate the two of those. No, you have to be responsible. Well, you have to. Living by faith doesn’t mean that you don’t change and learn and grow and transform. No, your faith should be changing as well. Yeah. But that, that is by, by, uh, redeeming your past. Right. So you do stuff and then it doesn’t work like it should. What is, what is that? You try to redeem it in whatever way you can. So like a wounded healer can redeem their past. No, no, no, no. Just like a wounded church could redeem their past. What I, what I mean by redeem is that it participates in the story. Right? So if, if there’s something bad, right. You look for the good in the bad and you treat it as if it’s that. Right. That’s what I’m trying. That’s what I’m trying to do. And I talk about how there’s these stages of development. So like, you know, when you say we should avoid the, you know, that the thing which caused the trauma, I say that is something everyone on their spiritual journey will get to. There’s something beyond that as well. So similarly, the church, which is here now, it’s a stage, it’s a necessary stage of development, but it will need to get to something better than that. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t. Wait, what? What are you talking? What is the church that you’re talking about? Oh, the church that creates the kingdom of heaven and peace on earth is the one I’m talking about. Yeah. So that, that already is defined. So like, why does that change? It’s it, it hasn’t done it yet. Therefore it’s not capable. It needs to change, right? The same thing you pointed at me. You say you’re, I’m aiming for peace on earth. No, the manifestation needs to change. Why does the principle need to change? And what print, what is the principle? Well, that’s how it’s outlined in the Bible. Oh, well, what needs to change that’s in the Bible? No, no, like, like, like what’s wrong about the Bible? Yeah, like what, what, like, like you’re okay. Okay. Either the church is the thing that will lead to the manifestation of glory, the glory of God on earth or not. Then there’s a question. What is the church though? No, I’m okay with the idea that the church will do it, but I don’t know what church does. I don’t know what that church looks like. You know, what does it look like tomorrow and a year from now? And no, no, no, no. The church is people working towards that goal. Like I don’t. Right. I agree with that. Right. And they’re communing in love. I agree with that. Right. And they’re living by faith. I think we mean different things. I think, I think we see, we don’t see eye to eye on this one. Living by faith. Yeah. It depends on what you mean. Like there’s, you can, there’s a, a faith in what kind of thing, right? That’s a. In God’s will, like participation in God’s will. So, but, so did God give us a will? I feel like something that God does. God allow us to. We will. Yes. So, so yeah, we’ve had the participation in God’s will. We can do that. And we’ve had the free will to create religions and create churches and create all kinds of things that are imperfect because humans are imperfect. Yeah. I don’t know why we’re making a perfection argument. Like that’s, that’s you introducing perfection. Like why, why like, like if. The perfection is participation in God’s will. The perfection is not something that you can judge. So this is the, this would be the mind reading instrument. It’s like, how can we identify those who are most righteous? Why, why do we need to identify people who are most righteous? So that we can identify the people who know the will of God better than everyone else. No, we all need to know the will of God. Like it’s not an option. We’re born babies. We, there’s a developmental process as individuals and as groups. Right. And so some individuals and groups will end up knowing the will of God better than others at certain times and places. Right. Right. That’s not, and it’s hard. It’s hard to know who is dancing with God. So that we can create peace on earth. No, no, no, we don’t create peace on earth. Peace on earth happens as a consequence of participation in the will of God. So what happens is people who are not willing or able to dance with God can corrupt the church. They can corrupt. They will. They do. Like it’s happened. Like it’s not an option. It’s in the Bible. It’s like unavoidable. And it has happened. It has all happened. It will happen again. But we can learn how to. No, we can’t. But that’s your belief, which, you know, that it carries with it something that you’re not looking for. So you’re not seeking, right? You’re not seeking a way to reduce the amount of corruption. No, I think I know the way. And if you know, if you found the way, that means you’re not seeking the way. It’s an arrogant position. It’s a position without humility. No, it’s a position of absolute humility. Please explain. Like that’s the way that you do it. You become absolutely humble. You surrender to God. Like that’s the way that. So there’s a difference between surrendering to God and surrendering to like the church. The authorities which exist, right? There’s God’s authority and then there’s no, they’re not like it’s in the Bible. So you’re surrendering to the authority of that which created the Bible and you might be confusing that with God. No, God instituted all authorities on earth and gave us free will. Right. It’s a contradiction. No. All authorities on earth are manifesting the will of God. Full stop. Every time we breathe, we are manifesting the will of God. No, we are dancing with God as we breathe. We can. We don’t have to. I mean, we evil people do that too. Like, right. And we, so we dance with God with different amounts of skill. So even Hitler was breathing, but, and so there’s different amounts of skill and carrot attempting to dance with God and dancing with God. Right. We all, all, all the nonliving, like every rock is doing it. Like everything’s doing it, but it’s the right. Yeah. Maybe. What is the purpose of the framing? The purpose of what? This framing, this framing of the purpose of the framing is to create peace on earth. How, how is, how is the purpose of the framing? Having rocks dance with the will of God, helping create peace on earth. How is having, well, the earth might be, it might be nice to have earth. Right. I have about, I have about 12 more minutes, Manuel. It’s interesting. Like I’m trying to point you at a problem, right? Like the things that you’re saying, right? Like this dancing rock, right? Like I look at it and I’m looking at trying to find the relevance. Okay. Yeah. It’s a, so it’s God is in every single, everywhere is omnipresent. Agreed. So what? Is creating and sustaining all of existence. Agreed. So what? So there is good in it. So I’m agreeing that there is good. God has that work everywhere across all the time and there is good in it. But there is good and bad in it. It’s not just all good. And the, and then like, what’s the implication? Like you’re making a descriptive thing and it’s like, okay, you make a description and it’s. And I think we just disagree on the art so we can, I think we agree a lot on what is. There is no art in what you said. That’s my problem. Well, the art, I’ve already talked about the art is, we are trying to create peace on earth. Okay. So, so, so how does the rock participate in the peace on earth? Uh, we humans learn how to use the rock. But that could be for good or for evil. So like, that’s not true. Humans who dance with God the best will be able to use the rock better than those who are the worst at dancing with God. This is where. They will be able to use the rock for good. That doesn’t mean that they will be able to use the rock better. I think, I think that more, more good and less bad is better. Maybe I don’t, I don’t even know about that, but. I don’t know. Again, you’re not saying anything that is actionable. So yeah, I tried to reach out to, uh, Auburn university so that I could, uh, connect with them and help. Okay. So how is Auburn university related to the rock and people using it for good or bad? So that we can identify people who are good. No, we can’t. We can use mind reading instruments, uh, neuroimaging technology, why do you assume that mine, like even if we can mind read, like why do you assume that mind reading can detect goodness? Mind reading can detect your ability to reconsider, to learn. Right. Why I can, I can reconsider and be an evil genius. Like you are able to reconsider a whole lot of things and they’re capable. You can, you can actually, so you can mind read, you can use mind reading instruments to determine if we, what we were aiming at and whether or not you’re actually aiming at if we were aiming in the same direction. No, that you can’t. I think you can. So I think that’s the science. I’m just making an absolute statement that that is impossible. And I think I can prove that pretty like I can prove it. This is what’s going to happen. I’m not saying that it, that we can do it right now. I’m saying this is what’s going to happen as we’re going to use mind reading instruments. I’m saying that it’s fundamentally impossible because it is a quality and we can’t measure quality. We can measure quality. We do it all the time. It’s called quality assurance testing. No, no, no, it doesn’t. It doesn’t. No, no, no, it doesn’t. Yeah. Yeah. You, you in the factories, if you want to make sure that the, that this light bulb is going to last or this resistor is going to be able to. What is it measuring? Is it measuring the quantity of time that it lasts? It can do that. Is it measuring the quantity of photons that it emitted? Right. Yes, it can measure these things. That’s not quality, that’s quantities. The quality will be related to your goal. And so then if you know, then you can measure the quality, you can measure the quantities to connect those. These are like, they’re called, um, okay. Ours they’re called objective key. Uh, they’re key results that are connected to your job to be done. Right. So you have a job to be done and you need to monitor and observe, uh, the monitor and observe, uh, what’s happening so that you can be, you can respond appropriately and you can be proactive in making good decisions so that you can accomplish the job that you want to do. So basically what you’re saying is we’re outsourcing things that we should do ourselves to machines. No, no. And so we need to do these things ourselves. We can do those now. We’ve always been able to do these things. Why do we need the machines? So we need to, we need the machines because the mind that we have is a mind that was inherited from times. So we are out social things to machines. Um, yes, yes, we are. Right. And so when we’re out, we don’t have to, we need to be, we don’t, we shouldn’t depend on them. We can do it ourselves. We’re with our children. No, they’re, when you give something over, right. You re attune your relationship with reality. I have a, I have a watch that monitors my heart rate in the distance I’ve moved today, right? I can pay attention to my breathing and my heart rate. Um, I can also monitor it with a tool. I can monitor the heart rate and the breathing. So these things are pretty useful. They, they, they, they might be for certain purposes. Yeah. Right. For certain purposes. But then is that purpose good? Right. And so like the, are you remembering God with each breath? Yeah. Your, your watch ain’t helping with you with that. Because we can build, we can build the device that that’s the device that’s coming. No, no, because you’re, then you’re not remembering. Then the device is remembering you. No, no, the device doesn’t, the device is tracking your ability to remember. I need to track my own ability because I need to take responsibility for my own ability. And it can help if you track your, if you track what you are doing so that you can track your rate of success, rate of error here, you can hold yourself accountable. Let, let, let’s deal with this in the end. In the end. How do you solve that problem? Cause I don’t, I don’t. Two people can be doing the exact same thing, but to different ends and with a different orientation. This may be a difference in quality. They can’t be measured. So I would point back at that idea of cutting open a heart. You know, it depends. It’s going to be in relationship to other things that are happening as well. Like, right. So, um, yeah, I didn’t, yeah, one person might be ripping out a heart and another person might be ripping out a heart, but are you saving a life or are you murdering, you know, a child, you know, you can’t know you, you, the device I’m talking about will actually be able to detect it and you will, you will be able to know. Now you can know it yourself, but you can’t, you can know, you can know what’s in your own mind. I can’t know what’s in your mind. No, I don’t like, like there, there are things in my mind that I can’t even know necessarily. Right. And that’s, that’s also where the monitoring can be helpful as well. No, no, no. You cannot, you like, we relate to new things, right? We relate to potential. Right. Right. So things will happen that are original within my head necessarily. Like it’s not, it’s not an option. Okay. You cannot, you cannot measure something original because you don’t have a framework to understand the original thought. Like it’s just impossible. And I’m, my claim is that every thought is original because you never step in the same river twice. So you can never use a device to solve that problem. It’s like, it’s impossible. So there are like, I think Moses, for example, Jesus, like these kinds of characters can walk with God very well. And, and if you were monitoring these things, you would be able to then have standards of measurement in which you can monitor and track these kinds of things. Yes. And they would corrupt necessarily. Like this is, this is, I actually think that they have been corrupted like by other people because we don’t have the transparency. No standards of measurements are things that are static in a dynamic world. And even if they’re true, and I’m going to just disagree that they can be true, but even if they’re true, they’re going to be irrelevant because of time. And, but you need a process of process improvement. Connected to humility. No, this is, this is Gnosticism that you’re talking about. Like what’s wrong with what I’m talking about? Because you say that knowledge can save us and, and it can’t. I mean, knowledge saves people every day. Yeah. Satan does too. Right. Then we should all worship Satan. That’s fine. Like he can say. I mean, Satan, Satan is in your mind right now. It’s in everyone’s mind right now. Okay. Yeah. I can, I can listen to him and I cannot die as a consequence. Or I can say Satan’s so powerful that you can be influenced by Satan without even knowing that you’re being influenced by Satan. Satan’s pretty powerful. Okay. Yeah. You’re not, you’re not, you’re not dealing with the point. Like, like, yeah, you, you can see it like measuring things and moving by measurement, measurement is always looking back to the past. So it can’t deal with the future. Like, and so looking back to the past cannot manifest the good. It can only turn away from evil to go back to the start of the conversation. Like it’s an inherent limitation of measurement. So the human, the human, they can produce good fruit and can demonstrate, oh, this is the standard of measurement. No, because the good fruit is not stable over time. That’s because we, we don’t have predictable systems because we’re not using science. We’re not learning. Right. So we all need to be robots. That’s where we need to go. Because that’s the only way that we can have a predictable world. If, if we, we become programs. But you, so you want to, um, no, I’m going back to the wildfires. You need, you need to go to your meetings. So we can pick this up some, some other time. Let me check this meeting real quick and make sure it’s still going. I can relate to some chat and actually maybe throw a link in the chat. Just, just reiterate, just reiterate the point that I’m missing and then that’ll be good. Okay. So, so you can, when you measure something, you identify against what you’re measuring. Right. So that’s always a reciprocal, narrowed perspective, right? The reciprocal narrow perspective cannot relate to potential and therefore it’s evil. Okay. That’s your point. I think there’s a way to, uh, that you can compensate all you want, but you still stuck in the limitation. Like it’s an, it’s a, I mean, there’s, yeah, we’re always going to have those limitations. I think there are, no, no, no, like, there’s, that’s, that’s what being saved is. Like, like being saved is being justified to following Christ instead of justification through, um, means of the flesh. Yeah. Yeah. I’m bumping up against your world. You is what’s happening. No, no. Yeah. Well, I am bumping up against your world view. Like, because I think, I think you, you, you are trying to do a move that is will to power and that’s just evil. Like, sorry. I think that I’m doing God’s will and it’s not my, I know. I agree that you think that, but I’m telling you you’re not and you can either believe me or you can be. And there’s a, I think you’re, I think you’re, um, yeah, I think that if we were to wear the device, it would show that I’m more humble than you are. I think the device would show that I’m more humble than you are. Well, then that only proves my point. And I think it would show that it would show that I learned that I’m able to learn and transform toward the good faster than you. And I’m further along the path than you. Okay. That is that, that is a really humble statement. I know, I know that that’s the reason I want, that’s the reason I want to create the device so that it can show me that I’m wrong. Right. That’s why I just told you you’re wrong. Like, like, why do you need to, but just, but just because you tell me I’m wrong, doesn’t mean I’m wrong. And just because I say I’m right, doesn’t mean I’m right. Tells you your rights or your wrong. Doesn’t mean that you’re wrong, but this is the, this is the way we do science is we can actually figure out who’s right and who’s wrong. No, you can’t do it. I mean, we’re talking on the internet because people have been doing science to figure out what works. Is this, there’s, you can figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. And I might be wrong and you might be wrong. Actually, we’re both wrong. We’re both wrong. I guarantee it. We’re both wrong. So, um, yeah. Oh, no, like I, like I actually have the capacity to see where I’m uncertain and where I’m certain. Right. Right. Right. I’m not certain about, I’m really not certain about, I’m certain that God is real and permeates all of existence. And then I’m, and I’m certain that I want to, I want to serve God and I want, and I, and I want to love God. And that’s like, and so yeah, it kind of stems from there and the certainty begins to decrease after that. Right. But, but like, if I am body that certainty that that should say something, right. Like either, either I’m deluded, right. And I’m all deluded. No, no, no, we’re not all deluded. We all are. We all are. No, no. So what’s the humble stance here? We’re incomplete. Right. Like we’re incomplete, but that doesn’t mean that we’re deluded. Like those two are separate. I mean, I think you’re, I think you’re doing, I want to just end by saying thank you, Manuel. And you, I really enjoyed listening to you talk to Paul VanderKlay and Taiyo. I haven’t got to listen to a lot of what you’ve done, but I thought those were great. I think you have a very good skill at there’s something you do better than me is I think you, your capacity to understand the other person and your capacity to communicate to the person and to teach the other person is beyond my own. And I, I’d like what you’re doing and thank you for having me on. Yeah. Thank you for talking to me. I think it was really, really fruitful. I’m going to keep it up a little longer, but I think we should talk about it again. Cause I think it is important and I’ll have a more buildup argument at that point for you. Yeah. I’m there’s, yeah, I’m definitely wrong. I find out later that I’m wrong about things. So it could be, could be I’m wrong. So that’s a, I appreciate the help. Thank you. Okay. I’m putting out the link through the chat. So if you want to join Kevin, you can go to work. I’ll deal with some chat questions. All right. Bye. Bye. Cause I, I started a fire. Let me, let me see if I can do some justice to, to the comments that you made. Well, there was, yeah, there was this question. Yes. Every authority on earth is an authority on earth. So, and all of those are participating in the glory of God in some way, some better than others, but I believe that. Um, yeah. So dealing with this problem, right? Like, I don’t know, like I, I somewhat have a problem with the term called actions, right? Cause now we’ve got to, we’ve got to define what that is. I mean, yeah, I would, I would not have a good definition for God’s action, but I would have a good I would have a good definition for God’s will manifesting, right? And then God’s will manifests true man, right? And, and in some sense, that is co manifestation, right? So that’s not only God’s will, that that’s also in some sense, our will on a different level. Um, yeah. Well, I think whenever we speak, we are always translating it into our understanding. We were having a discussion around, um, how to how to under translate your vision in to something that is intelligible to other people. Right? So like, I think that’s a necessary constraint when we’re trying to communicate. We, we put it in a framework that allows us to, uh, to communicate that well, and then how intentional are we when doing that? That is a different question, but I’m going to avoid dealing with that part. Yeah. All right. Objective good is a stupid idea because things in the world are always contextual. Um, so the action, the action gets colored in by where it happens and what the effects are. Um, so the, the, the problem with technology is that it removes us and, uh, in our participation from feedback from the work. Right. So what’s a good example? Well, for Vicky has this example with the pen, right? And you, you can, you can have the pen as an extension of your arm, right? Like you, you, you, that it moves in a certain way. Then when you see it as an extension of your hand, it moves in a certain way. That when you see it as an extension of your fingers, and then you can even feel through the tip of the pen when I, when I tap, and like my, my sense of self in some sense can extend into the pen. And you could even argue that when I write with the pen on paper, my sense of self gets extended into the letters that are placed upon the paper. Right. So the, the understanding of ourselves in, in action gets more complex as a consequence of, of the technology that we use. Right. We, when we’re integrated within technology, uh, our understanding of the world becomes dependent upon that technology because that’s the means by which we perceive the world. Now that will exclude us from a bunch of interaction, right? For example, if I have Google glasses or whatever, my perception of the nature around me will be filtered, right? It will be distorted and it will be of a lesser quality. And so, so this technology gives us more capacity, right? It increases the agency that we can express upon the world, but it also reciprocally narrows us to a, a certain type of participation with the world. And if, if we get too stuck in any state that is reciprocally narrowed, we, our relationship to reality becomes corrupted because we in, inherit the biases that are not natural to being an embodied creature. Well, slaves are problematic, right? Because slaves have their own will. So to have a relationship to a slave is different than to a tool. Um, yeah, I was hoping that someone would have joined me. I guess I’ll go to the more recent things. Right. Well, yeah, like, like the Mac, the Mac suit is like in some sense, a really interesting example because it’s literally a new body, right? Like it, and what was it? I was, I was watching something and, and, oh yeah, it’s, it’s backy, this martial art show, which, which is actually all about being in relationship to your body and, and using your body correctly. And, and these martial arts that have been cultivated over, over thousands of years, right? And, and how the inheritance gets, uh, there’s, there’s a progression in the martial art, right? Across generations, right? So there’s the individual martial artists that achieves a level, but then the martial art as such also reaches certain levels by people discovering a new potential as, as an extension of, of the martial art. And, and so they, they had the army, uh, develop a robot and an exoskeleton. And then they said, well, like he spent a year in the exoskeleton and he, he’s been exercising everything in, in the exoskeleton and he sat fighting and, and movements and running. And then the other thing that they said is, is knitting. So there’s this, this, um, care for, for, for like a qualitative, right? Like a precision relationship. Um, and, and in, in some sense, uh, knit, knit, knitting is more of a self expression, right? Like, like when you knit, like something of your, your personality gets embedded in, in, in your knit by the tension of, of the rope and everything. And, and the size of the, uh, I don’t even know the words in English. Anyway. And, and so you, you have to completely relearn that if you, if you’re using this mechanical extension of yourself. And when, when you’ve learned knitting from the mechanical extension, then doing that without it is going to be completely different, but you don’t, you don’t have a participatory framework to, to understand the, that interaction. Because, because even though the physical movements of the needles is going to be identical, right? Assuming that you’re doing it well. What it means to be participating in that is going to be completely different, right? Like the distance from your head is going to be different, right? Like the, the arm movements that are going to be different, like the, the, the Germans have this word, right? The finger spits the go full, which means the, the sense in the top of your fingers, like when you’re touching is going to be different, but you cannot replicate, replicate touch if, if you’re in, in an exercise. Like, and, and so what it, what it feels like to hold something will be different. And there’s things that I can do with my hands, right? There’s feelings that I can develop with my hand. That are unattainable through the exercise suit. Because like they just don’t have that capacity to, to, to, to do that. And, and like that’s kind of the point I was making. There’s a, there might be a necessity to wear an exercise suit within certain situations, right? Like, like when we’re doing dangerous work or, or, or heavy work. But then we take it off and we become humans again, right? And we participate the way that we’re supposed to participate. And we, we only get into the suit because it’s our job, right? And, and it’s, it’s serving something higher, right? Like it’s serving us. Well, the job is giving a product, right? But also the, the money that we make allows us to take care of our family and our community. And, and that’s why we do it. Like if we start doing them because we want to be in the suit or whatever, then we get into a problem. Yeah, so if, if nobody’s going to show up, I’m going to close it down. I’m going to give it some time for last comments or questions around this. I’m going to try and do more live streams. So if you guys enjoy it, please leave comments and stuff. So that I’m, I know that I’m doing the right thing. And also there’s directions or thinking or, or even if you want to participate in a live stream with me, yeah, just, just hit me up. Yes, exactly. Right. Like pain is a sense and, and it’s the type of feedback. And if you’re, you’re missing it, your handicap, like you’re, you’re, you’re incapable of having a certain participation. Now we’re humans and we’re flexible creatures that can compensate. Right. And we can use even technology to compensate, right? Like the best example is clothing, right? Like we can go into the cold because we have the ability to put things over our bodies so that we are not affected by the cold and we can function. But yeah, like if you’re lacking the proper feedback, you’re, you’re going to be in a bunch of trouble and you’re going to have to compensate for that for the rest of your life. Yeah. This is also happening with the disease called leprosy. So leprosy is, is where the nerves, the pain nerves, they, they stop giving signals. And yeah, these, these people, they just ended up hurting themselves and then they got a wound and they don’t realize that they actually have a wound and then these wounds start festering and then they lose limbs. And yeah, they just slowly lose body parts. They’re disintegrating as, as human beings because they, they don’t have the capacity to take proper care of them. And like, if you’re in a situation where there’s an external force, right? And like that force can be done by a technology, but it can also be done by other humans out of law, right? Which would be the proper way. You can increase the life expectancy and the quality of life for these people a lot. Yeah. Well, it’s good. I don’t know which channel you, you joined because I don’t, I don’t know if I can see that, but my channel is a agapic orientation. Post the URL in the chat. So yeah, it’d be great if you subscribe to my channel. I have a bunch of interviews with people. I have two formats that I use. It’s one of them is an interview format where I get people to tell their life stories around a certain, a certain topic. And then we go, we go through the transformations and changes that they made, they lived through in their lives and the insights that they had and how that worked for them. And the other one is something like I did today. It’s called embodying the logos. So we’re trying to get a relationship to the principles that are behind the subject of our conversation. So today we were talking about embodiment, right? Like what, what is it, what is it, what does it mean to have a body? And what does that require of you? And in some sense, how, how do you look at the world through a body, right? Like, like, because it means that you, you can take a certain identity, right? You can assume a relationship to, to the outside and allows certain things. Oh, cool. Yeah. But much of the joy is a, is a really interesting guy. I, I liked, we, did we do a book club? No, no, we, we, we brought, we read his, his book separately, but we did, we did a lot of discussions on that. And it’s a, it’s a pretty intense book. And I’m, I’m going to say that I, I didn’t fully grasp it on the first way through and its relevance also because I didn’t have enough biblical context. So I, I might revisit it later when, when I have more, more grounding to relate it from, but yeah, his, his new project and his stuff on Twitter is, is, is amazing because yeah, he’s, he’s trying to, to deal with the current issues, right? Like this, this idea of the rainbow and, but yeah, it’s relating to symbolism is really intense. To, to properly do that. And then you get an insight and then what do you do with it? Right. Like, how do you, how, how do you embody it? Like, how do you make it relevant? Because, because that was, that was the thing that I was doing in the end, right? Like we were talking to Gavin and, and he said, well, this is true. And I was like, wow, okay, it might be true. But what do you do with it? Like, like what does it mean? Right. Like the fact that something is true doesn’t mean anything because you still have to embody this information within your framework to, to make, make it say something, right? To, to, to, to make, to express it into action. Because if you, if you cannot do that, if you, if you cannot make that translation, take that translation into action, then you’re, you’re probably on the wrong track. Like you, you probably shouldn’t pursue that information because like it cannot bear fruit. And yeah, I’m, I’m with Mark. Glad to have you, Courtney. Oh, did, did, did you end up coming to this court? Because yeah, you should, you should hang out on this court. Then you can, you can talk to people. I hang out on, on this court all the time. What is my tag on this court that you can reach me on? Manual post. So that’s my, my name. So you can send me a message there. And since nobody’s joining me and nobody’s talking, I’m going to close it off. Here we go. So shout out to Mark on navigating patterns, Friday night, live streams, US times. And obviously I help Mark with notes because I talk to Mark all the time and we’re struggling with the same issues, albeit from different angles. And that is, has been a really fruitful relationship because yeah, like if, if you’re both aiming at the same thing and you end up with different framing, so yeah, you, you end up with, with different framings, you end up with different insights. And then that can provide insight into the other person. Like that’s also something that I’m trying to do within this series, embodying the logos, right? To invite people to participate in framing that will generate that insight. Yes. And looking at something from certain angles means that you’re effectively circumambulating something and circumambulating is a, is a practice that, that, that’s used by people where you’re walking around something. And in the walking around, you’re going to look at it from, from different angles and the different angles will provide you with a different relationship, right? Just by virtue of, of material relationship, but you can also spiritually do that. Right. And then if, if you, if you think of an idea as something that you can grasp, right? You, you, you want to have a full understanding of it, right? Like you want, you want to, you want to comprehend like that, which holds it together in such a way that you can wield it. You can wield the idea in your head. And in order to be able to wield the idea in your head, you, you have to wrestle with it in some sense, right? Like you, we were talking at the beginning about how your participation with something else, with the other is, is showing you boundaries, right? Like this, this idea works here, but it doesn’t work here. Right. So that means that in there, there’s, there’s something relevant, right? Like what makes it not work or, well, yeah, there’s, there’s many ways, but being, being in that tension, right, is what, what reveals to you something about the quality of the idea, right? Because the boundary, right, which might be not something that’s static, but let’s say it is static, right? We might find through science or, or through philosophy or whatever, we might find that boundary and we can make a definition for it. We can say, well, this is this, and this separates this from that. Right. But in order to, to get that boundary, to find it, we have to participate with it in, in a way that it shows up in a way that it makes sense. Right. Because the, the, the, yeah, it, it, it is only sensible, right? And the sense, sense is related to feeling, right? That if that boundary is, has a meaning, right? Like, like is a transition, like it’s, it provides a contrast. So yeah, back, back to circumambulation, right? So you can, you can have that boundary here and then you can take the angle, it goes down here and then is the boundary still there? Like, is it closer? Is it further? Like, like maybe it looks different, right? And, and that’s how you participate with, with ideas. And I guess I’m, I’m trying to exemplify that and, and, and that’s the purpose of framing. And when you know where you stand, when you look at something, you know why things are important, right? Like there’s, there’s a, a bunch of things that you can do that if you just end up in a frame, because that’s the frame that you have, aren’t available to you. And so to have proper sense making, getting a relationship with these things, intuitively, right? We don’t want to propositionalize everything is important. And so that’s part of my mission statement. And maybe I should record a video on my mission statement. Anyway, everybody, thanks for watching and I hope to do this again soon.