The Revolution of German Farmers ｜ Eva Vlaardingerbroek & Anthony Lee ｜ EP 416 (LR2Yx7jV-H8)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=LR2Yx7jV-H8

Hello everyone. I’m pleased to announce my new tour for 2024. Beginning in early February and running through June, Tammy and I and an assortment of special guests are going to visit 51 cities in the U.S. You can find out more information about this on my website jordanbpeterson.com as well as accessing all relevant ticketing information. I’m going to use the tour to walk through some of the ideas I’ve been working on. My forthcoming book out November 2024, We Who Wrestle with God. I’m looking forward to this. I’m thrilled to be able to do it again and I’ll be pleased to see all of you again soon. Bye bye. You know the deplorables as Hillary Clinton called them, those were the people that were out on the street and I would say that they were everything but deplorables. I take my hat off for you. You know I know where my food comes from and I’m very sad that the people in power seem to have either forgotten it or, and this is obviously the stance that I have taken, know exactly where food comes from but want to be able to control it in such a manner that they then also can exercise control over the general population. Hello everyone. I have the opportunity today to speak with Ava Vladingerbroek and Anthony Lee. Ava is a political commentator from the Netherlands. She was integrally involved in the Dutch farmer protests in recent years and has recently been with the German farmers and truckers and dock workers and railway workers who’ve basically brought Germany to its knees in the last weeks, in the so-called legacy media circles. Anyways, I talked to Ava today and to Anthony about just exactly what’s been happening in Germany and the Netherlands and many other European countries as well with regards to these essentially populist uprisings similar say to the trucker convoy in Canada. We discussed the scope of that movement, who was involved by group, the aims, the consequences and the likely outcomes on the German and broader European political front in the upcoming years and beyond. Join us for that. So where are you Ava and what are you doing? I’m in Berlin right now in Germany and I’ve been on the road here in Germany all over the country for the past seven days because for the past seven days the country has witnessed some of the largest farmers protests that Germany has ever seen and this protest wasn’t actually just joined by farmers but was a what I would call massive uprising of blue-collar workers, ordinary citizens, people who are just fed up with the German federal government, people that are fed up feeling like they have no right to exist, being taxed into oblivion and just wanted to make a fist and say we’re done with you guys. That was the general sentiment that I’ve witnessed around here and I’ve been reporting on it. I’ve been going out on the roads with the farmers cheering them on and on the first day on Monday last week I was on the A2 which is the busiest highway in Europe where I met farmer Anthony Lee who is sitting right beside me who was part of the organization and they conducted one of the largest roadblocks of the highway there that well I mean I have ever seen but I think Germany has ever seen and this was a roadblock that went on for kilometers miles and miles on end and I can I can still get emotional thinking back on it because it really reminded me of the Dutch farmers protests and even the Canadian freedom convoy because at a certain point we saw all of the tractors going onto the road because the truckers the German truckers came to help them block the road and it was just the most massive thing that I’ve seen in a while and so I met this this hero the man who’s sitting right next to me, former Anthony Lee right there and now we are in Berlin because today was the grand finale of the protests of the past week and and he actually spoke today on stage at the Brandenburg tour next to the federal government to tell the German government who’s boss essentially. So Anthony why is it that you’re involved in this and I’d like you to speak personally first like what what is it that has disrupted your life to the point where you’re willing to use your valuable time energy and machinery to engage in political activity and protest instead of doing what farmers usually do which is like working 16 hours a day so how long have you been doing this and exactly what’s going on as far as you’re concerned let’s let’s make it personal to begin with. Well yes thank you first of all for having us on the show and it’s a great pleasure. Well personally I’m just afraid of the future, a future for my kids, I have three kids and like I think every other farmer on this world they want the next generation to carry on doing the job which has been going on through you know dozens of generations in in some of our cases in Germany I know friends who are in the 15th 16th generation and now we have a policy not only now actually I would say the last 10-15 years we have a policy in in Germany and in all over Europe actually which is especially not farmers friendly to be polite and we started in 2019 with around about 15 000 tractors who came to Berlin to start this protest and we’ve been carrying on the last four years we spoke to politicians on all levels and since two years the last two years we have a I would say green dictated government in Germany which is making life actually not only complicated complicated for us farmers or for like if I said the ordinary workers the blue-collar workers so yeah this is this is why we started on the 18th of December last year with a new massive protest and this is this is special now because all organizations are united like they’ve never been and we are standing together against this kind of policy and like if I said today was one of the I’d say it was even bigger than 2019 I don’t have the numbers but I came to Berlin this morning and I passed I would say probably 15-20 kilometers long well yeah convoys of truck drivers farmers and this was only from one direction to Berlin and we came from all over the all directions and many didn’t even make it into the city because it was packed okay so there’s a bunch of mysteries there to unpack and the first thing I’d like to know and that everybody who’s watching and listening needs to know is what exactly has what green policies in particular like why do you characterize the policies as green first and then what green policies are making your life as a farmer and farmers lives in general untenable and what like why is it having the impact that it’s having provide me with some details about what it is that you’re facing well um our European government um the last years I’d say they came up with ideas of a green deal they call it a green deal and everything which which you which you pronounce green is supposed to be something good right and and nobody really has nobody wants to ruin the environment everybody wants to protect the environment which is good don’t get me wrong but um I’d say it’s kind of an agenda um to um get rid of us or like like we saw in in Holland the last two years and we have a thing in Europe and the European Union which is a part of the green deal they call it farm to fork strategy and it’s four things you have to remember or know about this strategy 10 of the whole European farmland they want um to get out of use so we’re not allowed to use anymore I mean 10 of Europe and which is kind of quite a lot um 50 of a plant protection chemical plant protection they want to cut down 50 I don’t know how they made up this number but it’s it’s a hell of a lot it’s like if you go to a doctor and the doctor is only allowed to use 50 of the medication it’s ridiculous because we need medication for our plants which is actually totally normal and then they want us to have 25 of the European Union the farmland only to used by organic farming which I don’t I don’t have really have a problem with organic farming but you use the devil of space or land or you only you only harvest uh 50 percent if you’re lucky and um and um this fourth thing what was the fourth thing um I think I already met him well I mean what I think what’s important to know is that just like with the Dutch farmers protest we have there is a sort of a structure to the attack on farming that isn’t just on a national level there’s definitely as you said there’s a European green deal that we’re working with which is pushed forward by unelected bureaucrats uh in this case forgive me but a Dutchman uh Frans Timmermans who is the mastermind or uh the evil mastermind I would say behind the European green deal and then in every national country there is a different set of policies that is used to target the specific farming groups right so in the Netherlands when we last talked Jordan about the farmers protests there I told you that it was about nitrogen right the the courts ruled in the Netherlands that we are facing a nitrogen crisis they are using European legislation for that to get rid of our farmers and here in Germany what the mainstream will tell you was the main reason why the farmers now were particularly angry or what sparked these protests was the elimination of tax breaks on agricultural diesel and the backstory to that is that the German government doesn’t have their finances in check and has a huge hole in their budget and was also trying to fill that that gap and they said well let’s go after what they call climate unfriendly subsidies and so they said we need to cut back on the tax break that the farmers get for agricultural diesel which those taxes normally only involve like for you know diesel for people who go out on the road that’s what that tax is for and farmers obviously just use it for their on their own land so the fact that they came after the farmers now and try to you know fill their own gap in their own budget due to their own mismanagement and they target now the people that provide us with our daily meals that initially sparked a lot of anger but I would say and I think you would probably agree with me Anthony is that there is a a general sentiment within the German population that was very much reflected at these protests of just feeling like the German government and not just the German government also the Dutch government and European Union is constantly acting contrary to the interest of ordinary people who in fact pay their salaries because they are taxed already into oblivion right so the the general theme that we constantly heard there was a a slogan basically saying the government needs to go right this wasn’t just about these tax breaks this was really a general dismay great dismay with the the federal German government and the policies that they stand for. So Ava let me ask you about that in more detail then Anthony I’ll go right back to you. When the protester the truck protest in Canada emerged there were while there were all sorts of idiot rumors many of them spread by the federal government that this was like a mega style January 6th insurrection that it was funded by mega republicans which is about the stupidest thing I can possibly imagine or even by Russians but underneath that there was a fear you might say as well as manipulation there was a fear that this sort of popular uprising was anti-democratic in its fundamental essence and you know when you say things like the government has to go I’m wondering how the two of you reconcile the fact and you can help me straighten this out reconcile the fact that Germany is led by a democratically elected government and yet these massive protests are emerging with the proposition that the government has to go and question is in a democracy what does it mean that the government has to go and how do you see what’s happening on the protest front in Germany acting in a manner that’s commensurate with democratic principles Ava maybe you can start that. Right well I feel like it couldn’t be more democratic what we are seeing right now because you are seeing people exercising their democratic rights to protest against a government that doesn’t represent their interest anymore I think the general support for the government has sunk to about 30 percent according to the polls here right so there are people in power right now who have been in power for the past two and a half years who were elected by the German people of course democratically speaking but who have I would say messed up so majorly that they’ve lost the support of the people and that’s exactly the opinion that those people have now gone out to voice and at their own expense because I mean like you said farmers are hands-on people that absolutely do not want to spend time away from their farms usually because they simply can’t afford it and the fact that they’ve now gone out in such large numbers to protest and make use of their democratic rights to me this is the epitome of democracy and what you see is that instead of celebrating that the mainstream media exactly the way that you described the Canadian process they are now saying well this is an insurrection these are people that aren’t democratic this is extremely far right you know that’s the they constantly step the far right label on it and especially in Germany in the historical context of this nation that label holds a lot of power I mean we all understand why right so being called far right is not something that you want in Germany but it’s been overused by the mainstream media and establishment so much so that clearly people feel like well whatever then I’ll be labeled far right but apparently they have nothing to lose anymore right so it’s laughable to me that and but I understand why they’re doing it that they’re trying to label these people as extremists when all what all that I’ve seen um are people who are just fed up with not being heard who actually want more democratic legitimation to the government they want to be represented by the people in power and they feel not just unwanted and unheard they feel like they are being threatened in their existence they are they feel like they are ruled by people who essentially hate them and so that’s all I’ve seen I’ve just seen ordinary hard-working people who are fed up and came to exercise their democratic rights. Anthony, Eva makes the case that you have to have a fair bit of gall or desperation in Germany to ally yourself with a movement that’s been pilloried as far right not least because of the historical precedence of that terminology for Germany and so I’m wondering how you regard yourself politically and and maybe who how you regard the majority of the people who are involved in this protest politically what what set of descriptors do you think might reasonably be applied to them and why is it that you decided that you would overcome the risk associated with being tarred with the far right brush to continue the pursuit that to continue the protest that you have been engaged in? Well I say my personal advantage is that I’m half British my my dad was in the British military so I mean I was born in Germany and raised in Germany and I went to German school but I’m not afraid of the typical right or agenda they are trying to force for seed in Germany but many people still are actually it’s getting less now because the media’s overdone it and people don’t really care anymore and you asked about the our government I mean it’s the new this government’s been in charge for more than two years and Germany is one of the economic motors I’d say the biggest in in in Europe and we are the only the only country industry the industry the country which has a they call it a negative growth in Germany I mean they even try to make that nice it’s ridiculous I mean how can you have a negative growth and it’s and it’s and they they blame it on Putin on Russia or on on on the environment whatever you know but it’s all house made because this country is one of the and was one of the wealthiest countries in Europe and in the world and they managed to ruin our economy in in less than two years I mean they switched off the most efficient and and and safest nuclear power plants on the world and and this is all because the Green Party in Germany that was their main goal since the early 80s and and they managed that and and from from the day we switched off these super efficient nuclear power plants we became we have to beg for for electricity especially in in France which is mostly nuclear power power plants in any way and and you can you can carry it on with so many things we we are reducing our our best industry in the world I’d say our car industry you know they are they are losing they are losing um what’s the right word for it um contact to the to the to the Japanese cars and so on and people see people see that and people lose money our inflation rate is the highest in Europe and it’s not going down and and you cannot say it’s it’s Russia to blame or anybody else if all the countries around you are having growth even the UK has growth even though everybody said in Germany well now after Brexit they they they will they will um you know get poor and it’s not the case so people see that and in in even like Ava said and every every worker has to pay more and earns less so that’s that’s why you know that’s why it’s turned and and there’s so many people who are who are fed up of this government so I’ve observed well a variety of things first of all it’s not easy to get coverage of the Germany of the protests in Germany on legacy media it’s as if really nothing is going on and it’s a strange thing because watching you guys from the outside and I think the same is probably true of what’s happening in Spain and what’s happening in Poland it’s so minimized and invisible that the only place that I’ve really been able to track it is Twitter and so that makes it makes it seem in some real sense that it’s conspiratorial thinking even to admit to the fact that it’s happening at all so we’ve outlined but it is happening and we’ve outlined some of the causes and we’ve noticed noted that it’s happening in many countries Canada the Netherlands Spain Poland Germany and we’ll continue to do so we’ve outlined the fact that there are factors at work so it’s an overarching bureaucratically imposed top down hypothetically green agenda that’s aiming to make a moral virtue out of the so-called degrowth that’s indistinguishable from economic failure and catastrophic guidance and that’s now being touted as a moral virtue which will do nothing but impoverish poor people and make them unbelievably desperate and reliant on places like China and India that’ll take the forefront and the leadership in industrial development and very rapidly if we don’t get our act together now you guys have noticed now some evidence for that I would say for what we’re laying out as the causes can be seen in the fact that as you guys pointed out it’s not just the farmers in Germany that are part and parcel of this latest protest and so Ava can you give us some insight into how widespread the participation has been and what other groups of primarily working class is my my understanding what other primary working class groups have become involved in on at what scale right yeah well so let me paint the picture again of the of the moment where we met on the a2 so we actually walked alongside the farmers on their tractors on a dark side road next to the highway where it was almost you know like a thief in the night they were trying to make their way onto the highway which obviously is not easy to do even in the early hours of the morning and I thought to myself how are they going to manage this how are these tractors going to make their way onto the highway with all these cars passing by and then from the corner of my eye I saw a huge convoy rocking up of these truckers who all had joined the protest and made sure that the road was safe for the farmers to go onto and that you know that really moved me that was such a special moment to witness I mean my video on twitter you can hear me scream you know enjoy and excitement because it was such a true moment of solidarity from this one group in society to the other and at the protest itself we saw I mean yeah the truckers were there the farmers were there all sorts of blue color workers but also citizens in their cars who either were there on purpose because they wanted to support the farmers or who got stuck in traffic but who we asked hey do you mind being stuck here and I kid you not like nine out of ten times they were like absolutely not I don’t mind I know exactly why these people are protesting and I agree with them so the the support was huge and even going around at the protest looking at the signs that people were holding you know there’s a nice word in German mittelschanz of yeah you I guess you would translate into the the middle class you know the working class the class that I would say is being absolutely obliterated by the globalist agenda under the under the pretext of this this green you know green moral morally virtuously yeah I mean utopia that they’re that they’re trying to impose on us which obviously is a dystopian world if you look at the consequences but so the mittelschanz the the middle class the hard-working ordinary people that indeed have become increasingly poor as a result of conscious choices that were made by an elitist government a globalist government that do not have the best interests of the people at heart and actively work against their interest I would say that was the the the general image that I got I felt like we are witnessing a an uprising of ordinary hard-working citizens who are being branded by the mainstream media unrightfully so as far-right extremists when in fact all they want is just you know to be able to exist provide for their family and do their job without being crushed by bureaucracy without being crushed by taxes without being crushed by derogatory labels you know the deplorables as Hillary Clinton called them those were the people that were out on the street and I would say that they were everything but deplorables I uh I take my hat off for you you know I know I know where my food comes from and I’m very sad that the people in power seem to have either forgotten it or and this is obviously the stance that I have taken know exactly where food comes from but want to be able to control it in such a manner that they then also can exercise control over the general population and I think that that’s ultimately the goal behind the climate agenda and using these the um yeah the green deal and all of these ideas as a pretext in order to gain control over people’s lives and and they’re creating crises to do it because if you if you have a population that is dependent on you for their food if they can’t eat you know what is a better way than than that than to get to gain control over them have you ever heard of data brokers they’re the middlemen collecting and selling all those digital footprints you leave online they can stitch together detailed profiles which includes your browsing history online searches and location data they then sell your profile to a company that delivers you a targeted ad no biggie right well you might be surprised to learn that these same data brokers are also selling your information to the department of homeland security and the irs so to mask my digital footprints I protect myself with express vpn one of the easiest ways for brokers to aggregate data and tie it back to you is through your device’s unique ip address which also reveals information about your location when you’re connected to express vpn your ip address is hidden that makes it much more difficult for data brokers to identify who you are express vpn also encrypts 100 of network traffic to keep your data safe from hackers on public wi-fi that’s why i have the express vpn app downloaded on all of my devices phone computer and even my home wi-fi router all i do is tap one button to turn it on and i’m protected it’s that easy make sure your online activity and data is protected with the best vpn money can buy secure your online data today by visiting express vpn.com slash jordan that’s e xp r e s s vpn.com slash jordan and you can get an extra three months free express vpn.com slash jordan yeah well it seems it seems to me that it’s an easy move for any given bureaucrat to proclaim his or her alliance with the planet with blessed mother nature to virtue signal in the day in the direction of a green agenda and to thereby ratchet him or herself not only up the moral hierarchy and pat themselves on the back but also to use that as a means of advancing their career even in micro steps and then you can imagine that the aggregate consequence of that across the entire bureaucratic class able to use this agenda as a get out of jail free card as an excuse an explanation for every failure we’re only pursuing degrowth because of the green agenda you could imagine that all of that collective activity going on in the background acts in a quasi-conspiratorial manner to put this agenda forward and then just so that we don’t assume that i’m only thinking about quasi-conspiracies you know i’ve looked very carefully at the so-called c40 consortium agenda and this is a consortium of the 40 some of the 40 largest cities in in in on the globe all allied together at the level of local municipal government who are literally pursuing an agenda that includes no more than three articles of clothing per citizen per year a 95 95 percent in private car ownership which is why we’re all being encouraged to produce the electric cars that we won’t have enough electricity to run anyways because you don’t need electricity if you actually don’t get to own a car and if the goal is a 95 reduction in private automobile ownership then it doesn’t matter if there’s no damn grid one short haul flight per person every three years which will completely obviously decimate the entire travel industry plus all of the tourism industry that europe depends on absolutely in all possible manners and then overall although this isn’t directly from the c40 the the fundamental goal of something approximating an 85 reduction in western living standards which is the calculation of the green virtuous globalist utopians as to what’s necessary in order for us to inhabit a a green planet and so all of this means it’s to me it means not only are the bureaucrats who are using this get out of jail free card to advance their careers and the conspiratorialists who are radically left using it explicitly as an agenda it also means that the bloody radical leftists are 100 willing to sacrifice the working class and the poor to their ambition and their green agenda now that has backfired in the netherlands so let’s concentrate on that for a moment eva so the last time we talked it was in the midst of the farmer protest in the netherlands and that produced a genuine political upheaval now maybe you could lay out for everybody what happened in the netherlands what the situation is now and what you think that implies for the future of european political activist act political action in general right well it what i think we can see or what happened in the netherlands was we had the last major farmers protests in march right and then right in march at the end of march we had general elections in which the former citizens movement a new a relatively new party got a landslide victory and then about a month ago we had general elections for our parliament in which the pvv which was originally branded as the far right again we can fill bingo curt with this the far right party won a staggering number of seats for dutch standards at least people have to understand we have a a system in which there are multi parties you know we don’t have a two-party system we have plenty and they always have to form a coalition but this party the pvv the far right party won about a fourth of all votes and now in the polls they’re even looking at a third because they’re only rising in popularity and i really think that this farmers protest and that’s why i think it’s so important what you guys are doing here in germany and that’s why i wanted to be there is that these the farmers are in the vanguard of this political change it’s you guys because you know anybody with a functioning set of eyes and brain cells know you know we talk to you we go out in the streets and if you if you actually see the people that go out there you see that those are not extremists those are normal people and so if you come after those if you come after the people who provide you with food that’s something that i think most ordinary people can’t really comprehend it’s like why would you come after the people who provide us with food that doesn’t make any sense you know and they don’t stand for that so i think that the farmers uprising in the netherlands has had a great impact on our elections so much so now that yeah the the far right quote unquote has won and obviously we’re not out of the woods yet because we still have to form a coalition but it is a major political shift where i feel like really something in the hearts and minds of the people has changed where they’re no longer afraid of the usual intimidation tactics of the mainstream media and and the establishment they’re you know they like we said we have nothing to lose anymore do you think if if do you think there’s a danger it what might be the danger if any of normalization of the so-called far right agenda i mean there’s two ways of looking at this right because one way is looking at it the way you guys have been looking at it which is that the terminology of far right itself has been weaponized and now that weapon is using it’s losing its potency because your claim fundamentally is that it’s been applied to the obvious what would you say to those who are obviously at the bedrock of society and that would be certainly the truckers and the farmers like self-evidently and if truckers and farmers just going about their business have become far right then the terminology itself loses its meaning but then you could also say well there has been danger in the past presented by the far right and the fact that the term no longer has any validity as a weapon also means in principle that people who have a genuinely far right agenda such as they are can now use this populist movement to their own advantage to put forward their hypothetically nefarious agenda and so i’m wondering eva how you’ve worked through those complexities in your own mind what you think far right means now and if you see any dangers in this populist uprising let’s say and the transformation of the political scene that’s emerged in consequence well there are a few things to say to that i think indeed the one danger that i could imagine is that because this term is so overused and has become so trivialized in that sense it’s like okay if there is a a far right subgroup that wants to do all sorts of evil things then maybe we would we wouldn’t take it as seriously anymore because it’s so overused on ordinary people with valid you know totally justified opinions i don’t see them though i don’t see them out on the streets i don’t meet them so what i have personally done in my own life you know i’ve had i’ve had my fair share of slander and and the the dutch mainstream media when i started out in my political career called me the shield maiden of the far right well i was 23 when that happened to me and i was terrified because i thought to myself well okay i can forget a normal life i can forget ever having a job like google never forgets so if somebody googles you and the first thing you see about you shield maiden of the far right well that’s not good but i’ve now come to the conclusion that you know there is no point in being afraid of a label that doesn’t actually apply to you so i just kind of run with it now it’s in my bio on on x because i think it’s funny and i want to show to other people don’t be intimidated by people who use that label to silence you because nowadays to me or what i find is that they put far right on just about anybody who is somewhat right wing to the center who has conservative views maybe doesn’t you know cut their hair short and dyed purple and screamed destroyed a patriarchy people who oppose mass immigration which clearly doesn’t have the best effect on or didn’t have the best effect on europe and so if you have those i would say completely legitimate valid opinions you earn that title nowadays with the mainstream media so the best thing you can do is stop caring because if you stop being afraid of it then they lose their power over you and we can demand actual change which nowadays would be labeled as far right but 30 years ago would be just a christian democratic ideal i’ve certainly seen in canada and and elsewhere that everything right now definitely includes everything that was even 10 years ago regarded as classically liberal and everything far right includes everything that 10 years ago would have been regarded even as moderately conservative and so and given that the the radical left actually occupies only about seven percent of the population and i think that’s probably an overestimate that really means that 93 percent of the population have been thrown in by them by them by the way has been thrown into the category either of right or far right now you would think anthony that this would be a particularly significant problem in germany and so the fact that ordinary people have chosen to rise up nonetheless in in spite of being labeled with these epithets indicates in all probability that dead seriousness is going on and so what what is it that you guys who are protesting want what do you think your protest has accomplished and where do you think this is going in the immediate and longer term future in this rapidly deindustrializing and failing german state well the first thing we want is just politicians who have who have common sense that that it’s very simple and let me just go back one one thing about this green agenda we have in germany everybody’s trying to get rid of co2 so co2 is the the worst thing it will kill us and we have young people gluing themselves onto the street especially here in berlin to to demonstrate we have to cut down on co2 otherwise they call themselves last generation otherwise we will we will die you know it’s it’s so silly that and and the media is honestly they’re cutting down a bit on it now but it but it’s still on to it and this is the main agenda especially to us farmers because we have to cut down on co2 and that’s why this green deal these four things i told you about and and especially the main reason what if i just described to tax our diesel and and and i only live about 150 kilometers away from from holland in holland or in belgium or in france they don’t tax diesel at all so it’s an unfair thing for us in europe to compare we can’t compete obviously and and anybody should know that we in germany our farmers use one liter diesel so efficient like nobody else can do it on this planet yeah yeah so obviously if we don’t if we don’t produce the food we will have to get it from somewhere else and we had we had some a very good passage last year in in a in a austria newspaper and they said the green deal from the european union is a bad deal for the planet because if we do these things that i told you a few minutes ago we will have to we need eight million hectares somewhere else on the world to feed us which will mean we use we have to use big ships to to get the food to us to germany which is bad for the environment because we will pollute the air with co2 which will kill us and we will take poor people food away and and anybody who says especially from the green party who says well it’s a good idea to do the green deal he should reflect himself and think no it can’t be it’s absolutely contrary to that sense or that that meaning we want to do we have to protect the planet to get rid of co2 you do in the opposite by far and people more and more realize this nonsense we’re doing and they fed up of it because it’s costing us money it’s cutting costing us our economy like i told you and i mean it’s the same we we we cut down uh i mean we we got a lot of gas from russia until the ukraine war and it was quite it was quite cheap for us which was good for our economy so we cut down we said well we’re not we don’t want it anymore by the way let me explain this so anybody from outside germany realized this spain for example which is a member of the european union imports double the size of gas from russia than before the ukraine war so which is silly because i mean we all have the same rights in the european union but we and our government says no we don’t want it because we don’t want to give putin money and so even though i live in a state which called is called lower saxony it’s in the middle of germany we have gas and we could frack is it fracking we could yeah fracking yeah we could frack gas for 30 years for the german economy we don’t want to do it because it’s bad for the environment we rather yeah buy it from the u.s or from the middle east and pay five times as much and we are dependent on governments from the middle east or from the america from the united states and then we have to we have to import it and it’s so silly which is obviously bad for the environment but they say it’s green you know it’s so it’s i mean we’re doing the exact thing you’re doing the exact thing and it’s so well so so so are we in canada so quebec the province of quebec in canada has enough natural gas in quebec to supply all of quebec for 200 years or the eu for 50 and they refuse to frack any of it because fracking is so dangerous and by the way i grew up in northern alberta and they had fracked there for like six decades with no problem whatsoever and so i know all of that is absolute bloody nonsense but the the advantages of this green virtue virtue signaling at the local bureaucratic level are so astounding that all of this idiocy can pass by as green legislation even though it flies in the face of both common sense and fact so i know for a fact for example that not only is germany electricity in germany something approximating five times as expensive as it should be which given the dependence of industry and everything else all of commerce on cheap energy is a bloody catastrophe i know as well that you guys are producing more carbon dioxide and more waste per unit of energy than you were 10 years ago because you shut down the bloody nuclear plants and have substituted instead lignite burning coal plants which is like utterly insane so just so that everybody watching and listening is clear here not only are these green policies devastating to the working class and to the poor and to the economic stability of europe as as a whole and then to the stability of the world in general they are counterproductive by the standards put forward by the green advocates themselves in that as you pointed out well first of all you have to import your bloody power at a tremendously high cost and then you’re going to shut down local production of food in favor of imports and it was only a few years ago that all the green revolutionaries were jumping up and down screening screaming about the fact that you should buy local exactly to decrease the kind of transportation costs that you’re pointing to and so it’s such a mystery because the policies that are being pursued don’t even suffice to service the goals that are hypothetically trumpeted by the formulators of the policies themselves it’s a bloody miracle miracle of stupidity and blindness i’ve given this so much thought because so many people have asked me why you know why would they do this it doesn’t make sense explain it you know why would you come after the most hard-working sector the most lucrative sector the the people that provide you with food why would you shut down your nuclear plants if you are to import electricity for i don’t know how much more the price why why why and i think it was carl jung actually who said if you can’t understand someone’s actions you have to look at the consequences and infer the motive and that’s what i’ve done with all of this if the consequences of the of their policies are that we become poorer and you know we not they obviously but we if we become poorer we become more dependent on them we uh you know we basically essentially would starve if this is put through and we don’t have the financial means anymore to import our food and uh well i don’t know god forbid a disaster happens we’ve outsourced everything you know we could be in real trouble well if those are the consequences then apparently that’s the motive i’ve maybe i’ve become too cynical but i find it very difficult to um to explain it any other way because this is not a one-time mistake you know these people are the net zero scam and i would really call it a scam is is something it’s a criminal scam yes well actually yeah yeah it’s not just a scam it is criminal it is criminal and i think that it is of the worst type of injustice if a government and the people are supposed to represent us you know talking about democracy liberal democracy and all if those people turn their backs on their own population and not just turn their backs but actively again go against their interest and and and allow them essentially if things go wrong to become poor and to starve and i can’t see you know i see true i see true evil behind these acts i don’t just see incompetence anymore it’s worse than that eva it’s worse than that even because i was speaking with someone the other day one of my podcast guests who said that their sampling has indicated that young people now think about climate apocalypse three or four times a day right they’re literally obsessed by it and we know perfectly well that that demoralizing insistence that all human striving is planet destroying you know patriarchal ambition and has to be brought to a halt not only does it risk economic catastrophe really right down to the fundamental level in the way that we’ve been describing but it’s also demoralized an entire generation of people and made them afraid terrified like chicken little that the sky is falling even when the ipcc itself who are hypothetically the people that you know are on top of the appropriate data have indicated nowhere in their documentation that we’re facing anything approximating a true emergency and so well and so that does beg the question as you said you know just exactly what the hell is going on and i think that your method of inferring the motivation is is actually the case i think the proximal cause is the fact that just as in nazi germany let’s say that any old mid-level bureaucrat could ratchet himself up the hierarchy by identifying at least in principle with the overarching nazi ideology it’s absolutely the case with these bureaucrats who bear no immediate economic consequences for the idiocy of their actions if they put forward this green agenda and they’re celebrated by their idiot peers for doing so that’s definitely good in the immediate present for their career development and their you know their self aggrandizing moral proclamations of of of virtuous self and in the aggregate we get exactly this sort of thing anthony what consequences do you think that these protests are going to have practic have had let’s start with that what consequences have they had and what do you think is going to unfold because this is a relatively new government in germany and it isn’t obvious to me that it’s going to fall apart in consequence as the government in the netherlands did certainly the canadian government sailed right through the trucker protest as if it never even happened and the probability that justin trudeau is going to rule with his velvet fist for the next year appears to be extremely high so what do you think is going to happen in germany as a consequence of these protests well it’s very hard to predict um the government didn’t learn its lesson yet that’s that’s obvious we had our finance minister on stage today and it was obvious he didn’t learn anything about our actions we did but what what we what we already achieved is that we are like i said in the beginning so united like i honestly honestly never thought we could be if i said that i mean i would say 80 percent and this is this is an official poll of our mainstream media 80 says they they are behind our actions behind our it’s not a strike it’s a protest and um that’s amazing that’s honestly amazing especially um getting um in front of this agenda what we were talking about and like i said people are realizing that now and they’re realizing it for one reason they believed everything or most of them believed all this agenda agreed we have to save co2 to save our lives and all that nonsense but now it’s costing them money everybody’s paying for this and we are paying a big price and we didn’t talk about even i mean with the war in in in ukraine um obviously ukraine produces a hell of a lot of wheat and crop for the for the poorest in the world and if you if you look into where the wheat if it gets out of the black sea region goes to it mainly goes to european countries turkey and china it doesn’t really go to africa where it should where it should go and it comes to us um poland hungaria they said we don’t want it they shut their borders so it’s coming straight through to germany and the danish government only recently checked if it’s if it’s contaminated with uh chemical chemicals which are not allowed in in the european union and they said yes it is it’s also it’s official but nobody cares so we are um not getting the price we should get for our crop our grains and we we are getting over over flown by um grain from the ukraine which which is bad which is really bad i mean obviously it’s bad you know first of all poor countries aren’t getting it we can’t get rid of ours and um the government’s even paying uh some parts of the transport to germany so they are obviously using our tax money to um to make sure we get a bad price for our for our crop well i think we were already talking about how demoralizing this agenda is and food of course if you want to demoralize the people i mean it’s done by feeding them bad food as well i mean jordan you know i don’t have to tell you about this but the importance of of good meat of healthy animal fats it’s it’s huge and if you make people feel like the only thing that they deserve is you know bad bad meat or bugs insects or synthetic meat you know feed literally food that will make you weak uh i think that says something about our establishment you know it says something about the way that we are governed it says something about the way that we are ruled that we are supposed to live as if we are livestock that you know it can only eat insects or or basically you know trash and and who produce carbon dioxide simply by breathing let’s say and produce children and produce children who are a net burden on the ecosphere etc etc and and want to travel and want to buy things want to have a standard of living yeah how dare you want to have a nice life absolutely how dare you absolutely when yeah when everything you do does nothing but muck up the planet and mar the future yeah it is an absolutely bloody dismal view of humanity that’s for sure and bordering on murderous yeah it’s it’s malthusian to say the least and i mean you know we’re getting about we’re joking now but there was an actual headline not too long ago in the press here in the uk and in europe quoting a study that said that breathing causes climate change yeah right you know what’s the consequence of that then do you want me to stop breathing that’s the only that’s the only answer to the problem then right so it’s yes it’s absolute content so you know the the the the human progress people have documented the fact that every baby born will produce seven times the economic resources that every baby consumes and so the idea that’s the historical average at the moment the idea that more people means more poverty and more environmental degradation is not only a lie it’s an anti-truth and here’s another so not only so imagine first of all if every baby consumed more than it produced then if then people on average would starve and on average a far smaller proportion of people are starving than has ever been the case in the entire history of the planet we’re going to peak out at about nine billion and it’s crystal bloody clear that we could manage that and then there’s going to be a precipitous decline that’s the demographic outlook and that’s within this century then here’s some so the idea that each person born can produces less than they consume is a complete bloody lie it’s out by a factor of seven and then here’s the here’s the clincher this is so this is so staggering the best daddy indicates quite clearly that if you can get poor people so absolutely poor people not relatively poor people so people in danger of food privation let’s say and lacking opportunity for their children if you can get them up to a point where they are producing five thousand dollars us gdp per year they immediately start to take a medium and long-term view of let’s say environmental stability and sustainability because they have enough wherewithal and enough resources at their disposal so that they don’t have to be in a perm in the permanent state of crisis that incentivizes them to burn up and consume everything around them so the best data indicates very very clearly that if we drove energy prices down or allowed them to decline as we could if we used intelligent nuclear technology for example we could raise the planetary standard of living to the point where everybody locally would start to become concerned about environmental issues and act naturally in a manner that would provide for a more sustainable world instead we’re doing the opposite to virtue signal stupidly we’re cranking energy prices up claiming that all the industrial activity has to cease making poor people even poorer and putting them at risk of starvation all that’s going to do as it’s already started to do in germany is make both the economy and the environment worse and it’s going to breed while more and more uprising of the sort that we’re seeing everywhere you couldn’t imagine a more counterproductive agenda and to say it again counterproductive even by the standards of the people who are hypothetically putting the agenda forward it’s like why the hell would you oppose nuclear power that’s utterly insane especially in a place like germany especially when you germans then have to import nuclear power from the scandinavians and the french you know it’s it’s so blind that it’s a miracle but it’s it’s it baffles me already that we live in a time apparently where we have to justify our existence with data you know that’s that’s something that deeply bothers me it deeply bothers me no kidding yeah no kidding i mean and you know uh this will of course lend me another label in in in secular but i think that the death of god that you so often discuss as well is is ultimately the the main reason for that you know if you forget that people have intrinsic value because they are created in the image of god and they’re just a number and we have to work to net zero and we need to now see if you add something or take too much and you have to justify your own existence by quoting scientific studies i think we’ve got off the road man like and bad time like this are we we are are we china now is that is that what we are these these people have their mouths full constantly they’re always talking about human rights here and there but now we have come to a point where we have to justify our entire existence to our mouthusian overlords and i’m not okay with it yeah yeah i’m not okay with it yeah i’m not okay i’m not okay with it either and the whole mouthusian the whole mouthusian proposition so let’s just walk through that a second so that’s a biological metaphor so let’s just walk through that a minute just to show exactly how wrong it is okay so now there’s lots of situations in which the use of biological metaphors can shed light on human nature and even the nature of human what would you say striving and thriving so psychologists use mouse models all the time and that’s partly because the neurochemistry of a mouse brain for example it’s very similar to the neurochemistry of a human brain there’s all sorts of analogs in behavior and function that are relevant but the mouthusian doctrine is based on a very low level analogy so the analogy is essentially this if you put a microorganism in a petri dish so it has enough agar enough food substrate so that can thrive it will multiply to the point where and rapidly geometrically or exponentially to the point where it consumes all of its resources and then it will catastrophically collapse okay and so and you can see that same thing occurring in some natural populations if you provide a natural population with no predation and a plethora of resources in a constrained environment then it the population will grow until it consumes all the environment resources and collapse okay so why aren’t people microorganisms in a petri dish well there are some constraints on what we can produce and consume like there’s different what would you say scarcity of different fundamental elements for example such that some things will always be more expensive than others or almost others almost always there’s some natural scarcity but here’s the fundamental difference between human beings and other creatures so we can produce we can innovate and we can produce variants of ourselves that can die instead of us so on the innovation front the innovation front and these things are tied together because we can think because we can transform cognitively we don’t have to die or vary genetically we can transform cognitively that’s our niche and the fact that we can transform cognitively means that we can make constant scarcity into variable plenitude and we’ve done that constantly things we regard as natural resources hydrocarbons for example oil gas those things were of zero value in 1820 zero they weren’t natural resources at all it wasn’t until we figured out how to use them how to substitute them for whale oil for example that they became this unbelievable source of wealth that was immediately available everywhere it was a cognitive transformation and revolution and there’s no end to the degree to which we can use that cognitive revolution to increase plenitude and that’s exactly why for example that every baby born today will produce seven times as much as they consume now you might say at some scale there’s going to be some limit to plenitude but it isn’t obvious at all that what that’s going to be and it certainly isn’t obvious that we’ve reached that limit and that’s especially true when you consider the possibility of computation because we’re in this situation now where our computing resources which take up you know comparatively little resources and energy are multiplying at a rate that’s absolutely beyond comprehension and we have no idea how much we’re going to know in 10 years so the Malthusian notion there isn’t anything about the Malthusian notion that’s correct except for yeast and bacteria and you know if you’re going to treat people like yeast and bacteria then we’re going to be in the same damn situation that we’re in now right where we have to justify our existence by data because the world is full of scarcity and maybe the only the elites who have our best interests in mind are going to be allowed to thrive yeah yeah i think i can think of a far right ideology that talked about people as being dirty you know and uh and and bacteria and now we are dealing with a a left wing ideology that is doing the exact same thing and making us justify our existence and yet well they call the people opposed to it far right so we’re full circle yeah yeah well i saw recently that uh trudeau’s minions are now um what would you say working behind the scenes to ensure that the public health officials at the world health organization who are so concerned with the control of the next pandemic just like they were with the last one are also now moving to ensure that climate catastrophe will be included within the domain of public health concern that the you know global overlords are going to be able to yes going to be able to manage and your your comment about you know far right totalitarian governments treating people as if they’re infectious agents right cancers on the planet let’s say we know perfectly well again from the data that that drives a totalitarian agenda as soon as you use language of contamination pollution and disgust to characterize someone let’s say human beings you immediately elicit the unconscious and conscious activations of the disgust systems that protect us from contamination and those are very dangerous once they’re activated they aim at destruction right at the destruction of the pathogen yes and those people those are the ones that the farmers the truckers the people that we’ve seen out on the streets today have protested against that’s why they were out on the street and when i said that earlier in this conversation we are we have been speaking to people who feel like they are ruled by people who hate them and that’s maybe they can’t voice exactly why you know they can come up with examples obviously they are feeling it in in their own finances they but they can tell and i think that people ultimately on a on a human level on a soul level can feel when they are being despised by others and this exactly this notion that you are just describing right now jordan that i think is the motor behind this protest people can sense that they are being hated people can sense that they are being despised and they are done with it because they realize that they are the ones paying forward and that the state should be here to serve us not the other way around anthony just out of curiosity you know you you you and ava have just talked about this the the breadth and depth of this protest and its positive effects but you closed by pointing out for example that the finance minister that you guys talked to or that spoke to you right at the close of the protests doesn’t have seemed to have learned a damn thing which doesn’t surprise me in the least and so that makes me question just how effective what you’ve done so far is and i want your opinions about that and then i’m also curious like why didn’t your now united organization given your 80 percent level of public support call for something approximating a general strike and just bring the whole bloody thing to a halt yeah well that would be the obvious thing but our well what do i should explain it well actually it’s against the law to do this general strike because we it is it obviously is against the law but i reckon we have to come to the stage where we have to break the law sometimes which is not meaning violence it’s like just civil disobedience yeah exactly yeah that’s that’s probably the next stage but we have to talk about that between us between the organizations but you you’re completely right i mean we gave the government two options well they are two options either they either they they turn back to a policy which is which is for the people like if i said which is definitely not i mean we forgot loads of things which which are going completely wrong in germany i mean we have we have a farming minister who’s telling us we should only eat and this is this is not a joke 10 grams meat per day right this is honestly what they are trying to tell us 10 grams right which is which is nothing yeah when the politicians start telling you what you can and can’t eat it we’ve crossed a line it’s like you don’t get to tell me where i set my thermostat you don’t get to tell me what i can drive and win and you certainly bloody well don’t get to tell me what i can eat like fundamentally and seriously to hell with you and what it also indicates to me and and increasingly clearly is that once you’re waving the flag of planetary savior on the environmentalist front once you’ve turned 100 to that kind of nature worship there is absolutely no level of control whatsoever that you won’t stoop to and justify by your moral pretension right redounding to your credit and increasing your power at the same time as it does so all right so they’re perfect so this this begs the question though doesn’t it like i watched claudeine gay resign from harvard and i’ve watched the moderate left wingers flap about now in increasing consternation recognizing as they do the absolute danger of the diversity equity and inclusivity idiocy that’s part and parcel of this what would you say radical leftist line of anti-human thinking but at the same time i see that i don’t believe that harvard as an institution has learned a damn thing and i don’t believe that the moderates on the democrat side in the united states for example have any idea whatsoever how deep the ideological corruption and rot has become and so you’ve pushed forward this protest but as you said yourself you still have members of the government firmly in charge who think that we should eat 10 grams of meat a day and who don’t believe that they’re going to throw you a bone or two maybe in the near future but the probability that they’re going to revisit the ideology upon which they’ve based their political empire strikes me to be close to zero so again you said the future is uncertain and unpredictable what do you think is going to happen and what should happen we have free elections this year in east germany and east germany the polls show that the far-right party the afd in germany is by far in the lead in these polls and which will which will be like an earthquake in our politician in germany because we never had this situation and if this happens and i reckon it will because like you said they will not change their policy things will change rapidly in germany because like you know politicians they they want power and to get power you have to compromise and even though they now they now say we will we never compromise we never go together with this party i reckon just because they want the whatever want the power they will and that will be a landslide it will be a completely change in germany but that were saying that that might even still i still have hope i don’t know if hope’s the right word that our actual government will change the way they they govern not by 180 degrees which which we need yeah but maybe a few degrees but and and that might these two options are on the table and only these two options okay well something okay well something similar to that has happened in the netherlands so now ava what’s the status of the government in in the netherlands and is geert wilder is going to head up the new government is that how it looks and what do you think of him and and what do you think again let’s talk about this a little bit what do you think the dangers are that present themselves in consequence of that in the netherlands the same thing applies to germany and we could also talk about the afd to some degree because they’re certainly pilloried as far right in western media certainly in north america you know they’re viewed as to write a victor orban i would say and he’s definitely persona non grata to the legacy media so let’s start with the situation again in netherlands and then move to what you see ava as being most likely um in germany i’d like to hear your thoughts about the afd as well okay so we are still in the process of forming a coalition right now as i said we have a very scattered political landscape and so all of the parties that one will need to form or have negotiations and form ultimately a coalition to have a majority in parliament so without that it’s going to be difficult to pass any legislation obviously so this process is very important what is now happening is that the let’s just say the the legacy parties the establishment parties that we’ve that have ruled the netherlands and i would say destroyed it actively for the past 30 years are doing everything in their power to stall that process because here builders is becoming increasingly popular as i said he got one out of four votes in the elections just a month ago and now he’s polling at one in three votes so the last thing that they want right now is the coalition formation product process to fail and for new general elections to be called because then he’s going to become even bigger so what i think the political strategy at home is is they’re going to stall that process for as long as possible the parties the moderate right wing party the centrist parties they’re going to pretend to be willing to work with him and then they’re going to drag it out so long and they’re going to say at a certain point well you know this man is just impossible and they’re already saying that he has said things that go against the constitution and that are a threat to the rule of law etc so they’re building their case and i think that that is something that we see everywhere is that this you know this is a war of attrition essentially so we have to be prepared for all of these games however i think something similar might happen in germany but what i do think is that the genie is out of the bottle with the people and that to me is ultimately the only thing that matters i don’t put any of my solace in the political party system anyway what i do care about is the willingness of people to stand up for what they believe is right and to not be intimidated by people who lie about them and about what they stand for right so what i think is going to happen in germany with afd the people that i’ve met from afd what i’ve seen about afd is they are conservative people who essentially are saying well the idea merkel’s idea to let 1.2 million migrants in in one year in 2015 might have not been the greatest idea you know to me that’s a very legitimate standpoint extraordinarily legitimate especially because there is no alternative no pun intended in germany really aside from precise from the parties that have destroyed the country very actively so i think that they are going to win by a much larger margin than the poll suggests right now just like what happened for us because the pvv was also not you know they weren’t pulled at the the extent that they now have won the elections with and i think that that will change something in the mindset of the germans because like i said if if even in germany that label doesn’t hold enough power anymore to deter people from voting for change then you really know that the government is messed up right you really know the establishment is messed up and that the people are fed up so i personally i think that germans who want change have no choice really but to vote for the right-wing parties and i would say essentially not for any party that has governed the nation in the last 10 years okay so do you see and and and and i’d like both your opinions on this it’s so difficult to get a handle on any of this say because you know i’ve been watching the political landscape for a very long time and certainly the the the um the idea of geert builders has raised my hackles in the past and i would say that’s because i’m profoundly at least because i’m relatively ignorant about politics in the netherlands and and still susceptible to the consensus view developed by the low resolution pictures presented by the legacy media and so i don’t know what to make of that and exactly the same thing applies to the afd and so i’d like to know from both of you what dangers if any you think this tilt towards this more we’ve already taken apart the notion of the right god only knows even what that is anymore given the overuse of the term but do either of you have any qualms about these political transformations do you think that they could just because you’re fighting something that in an of itself is reprehensible and destructive doesn’t mean that the weapons that you use to fight it can’t also pose precisely the same danger so ava maybe you could start by commenting on that especially with regards to the afd and then anthony you could chime in with regard to germany well i mean these are the both the upsides and the downsides of democracy in general that we’re discussing i think so of course the the instruments or the alternative can also turn bad but then that’s inherent to democracy and the fact that we have to form coalitions in our democratic systems at least that’s somewhat of a safeguard in a sense that they are going to have to work together with other parties anyway so let’s say god forbid that these parties turn out to have crazy ideas that we absolutely didn’t want didn’t vote for we have to either trust in the fact that the system will correct it or i think you can throw away the entire concept of democracy almost all together right so the i think that a lot of people here are trying to use the the possibility of maybe ifd going too far in certain aspects or you know not having i hear another argument often that they say oh well they don’t have good people they don’t have enough people with with enough qualities to govern the country i’m like well i don’t know if the people who are in power right now do like clearly you know you guys have a bit of an issue on your hands so you might as well try and i think that that is essentially what this country needs you know something needs to happen and like i said i’m not one to put all of my solace and trust and hope in the political system anyway but it is very clear to me that germany and europe in general is on a path of national suicide so might as well try something else for once and i you know because i find myself in the position so often that i’ve been called far right for what i think are perfectly valid opinions that i care a little bit less at this point you know i’m like no i think we i think something just needs to change here and i try to trust in the democratic system and that it will well back itself that terrifying specter meloni in italy who everyone and sundry was warned about in no uncertain terms forever you know tantamount to muslimi and her fascist proclivities has turned out to be a hell of a lot more moderate even than the people who voted for her might have hoped so these specters of fascism that keep looming turn out to have a lot less teeth than feared when they end up what would you say when they end up acquiring a certain degree of political power now you know orban has been the most successful conservative figure in some ways in on the european scene and he’s still demonized roundly and continually in the western media but it’s also been my apprehension with regard to hungary that things are nowhere near as dismal there as they might have been given all the fear that was engendered around orban’s policies and so what do you what do you think about that and then anthony will turn to your feelings about the afd in germany yeah i think i think you’re very right i mean when i go to to hungary for example personally and when i speak to other people who go there a lot of people feel like they can finally take a breather it’s like oh that’s nice you know this is what europe used to be like 50 years ago 30 years ago in some countries even less and and i am upset as a 27 year old that i have never experienced europe as safe as functioning as sane normal dare i say you know as i find a city like budapest to be you know my my parents had that experience my grandfather sure as heck had that experience but i never had it and i never voted for it you know i have always growing up had to be afraid going out after dark you know it’s it’s just that’s that’s our our reality right now and that’s our reality not because it happened like a natural disaster but because people in power made the wrong decisions actively and i think that everybody can agree to the fact that a country like hungary is not you know the dictatorship that they make it out to be in the media the what i saw the time especially the last time i was in budapest i was there for a symposium on on promotion of the family which seemed to be you know a relatively positive and certainly a non-malthusian concern i mean if you if you’re in the airports in budapest for example what you see are plethora of posters celebrating the family as the core bedrock social institution of the polity and that just doesn’t strike me as particularly nazi and its derivation especially and so this and i know the president of hungary to some degree and she’s a woman who is quite admirable in my estimation who spent most of her career trying to figure out how to protect the family and how to economically incentivize the role that women play in reproduction in keeping with opening up the opportunities for them on the economic front in general and has produced policies that have decreased abortion substantially without force decreased divorce increased the marriage rate and also increased the rate at which women are participating participating in the broader general economy and so none of that particularly screams fascism to me and and the fact too that we’ve seen well that that the the the consequences of the election of baloney and also one of the so-called far-right parties in sweden seems to me to indicate that there’s a lot more fear there than is justified by the by the consequences especially in contrast to this absolutely insane utopian self-serving moralizing green agenda that provides an absolute excuse for everything you can possibly conceptualize anthony in terms of the afd how do you think it is being perceived by the protesting class now the people that you’ve been talking to the truckers the farmers the the people who work for the railways the dock workers because they were all involved in this protest as well and what dangers do you as a german citizen see on the fascist side so to speak as a consequence of these populist movements well me myself i’m in politics for the last eight years and i was in the cdu that was a party from angela merkel and i left the party about a year ago and i moved to the parties called fraue vela i would say they are the old cdu as i knew it 20 years ago and the afd yes it’s a far-right party which is which is is gaining on popularity massively and the main reason is i think is the same reason like in italy and sweden migration we have we have a massive migration problem in germany we have i say right about five to six million people since 2015 who came to germany and at the moment we are we are way over 300 000 this year and it’s it’s not the problem with my migration the problem is who is coming and we don’t even know who is coming up till 2010 i was police i was a police officer in berlin we had a massive problem with migrants in them days because the migrants who come now are mainly young men from muslim countries and like i said we don’t even know who is coming because they come in they are they are allowed to stay here even though it’s against the law and we don’t obey the law the government doesn’t obey the law like it like it should be and governments like sweden i mean sweden is very liberal as i know it i mean even day chain even denmark you didn’t mention denmark because denmark isn’t governed by a right-wing party but they are governed by a female president who’s social democrat but what what she what she did is she she uses the same methods of politics the right-wing party kind of is and and that’s that’s why the right-wing parties in denmark aren’t existent anymore to be honest so it’s not who who runs a country which which which part which well which which right or left wing it’s what policy do you do in your country and and and talking about the afd it’s very very strong in east germany because the east germans i think they have we say they’re better antennas which yeah you know what i mean they come from a from the ddr so the older people who who lived in a in a in a climate like they did they know if something’s not going right in in your country and that’s why they they turned to the afd more than than we in the west do and and it’s not and and many say they should be forbidden the party should be forbidden and and i don’t and i say who and who are we the people to say it’s not it should be forbidden or it’s not a democratic party for me only one institution could say that that’s a high court in germany if they say yes they should be forbidden okay but me or the press it aren’t the people or the institutions to say that so like i said a few minutes ago it’s it will be very interesting to see how the afd and the cdu if they compare with each other if they go together after the free elections we have in east germany that’s that’s that will be very very interesting well you talked about antenna you know and i’ve traveled extensively with my wife through east europe eastern europe in the last years multiple times many many different countries meeting with many many people and certainly one of the things i saw was that the survivors of the soviet regime which is all those people are much more sensitive to the dangers posed posed and the reality of the radical leftist agenda that is sweeping over the western world in the guise of in the hypothetical guise of the continuance of liberalism and that’s antenna and much more likely as they did in hungary in consequence and to poland in some degree although not recently and but in hungary to favor modes of apprehension and governance that keep the communist specter that specter of centralized planning for example at as much bay as possible and so that seems to be reflected for example in the attitude of the east germans that you just described toward the globalist utopian quasi-green agenda that we’ve been discussing you know my sense has been quite strong in recent years that the bastion of european civilization that would be judaic christian civilization in europe is now shifted to eastern europe rather than western europe and you know the you with the uk playing a rather ambivalent role in that regard because it’s a country that’s very split with the brexit people more aligned with the eastern europeans and the while the labor party which is most likely to be the next government much more aligned with the globalist utopians in brussels so ava what’s on your slate now the protests in germany have come to their current conclusion and then anthony maybe you can tell us what’s well what’s the next move that lays in front of the protesters so ava what are you up to next and what are you working on and what do you hope to have have happened in the near future well talking about communism and the agenda and the similarities with the agenda that we are facing right now i’ve spoken very often about the global war on farming right that’s the reason why i’m here right now that’s the reason why i decided to join the protest in the netherlands to speak out is i want to make people aware of again this utopian green deal and and the net zero agenda and ultimately the agenda 2030 which is a united nations agenda that i think is at the core of this and that agenda to me reeks of communism more than anything else but you have to really see through the pretexts that they use so everybody the entire world right is part of the united nations and the united nations have laid out sustainable development goals that are ultimately at the top of the hierarchy you know for all of these policies that we are facing right now that if you look at them at face value they look very noble you know i think one of the first ones is to end world hunger but then if you think about how they would put that into practice none of those goals can ever be achieved or attained without the redistribution of wealth good goods foods rights and so that ultimately to me is this is neo-communism or neo-feudalism you could even say i guess packaged just a little bit nicer you know it’s like oh we are here to save you but if you look at the reality of things and i think that we are all currently already experiencing that what will happen just like with communism in the old days is that the ordinary people will become poorer and more miserable and the top layer will become even richer and that’s what we are facing today and i will continue i guess my my fight and my plight for the farmers in that sense because i truly believe that the farmers are the one group especially and i know that this is also a very radical thing to say in a european context but we in in europe we don’t have a second amendment i think that the sort of the spirit of you know wanting to protect your people against a tyrannical government is not as embedded in our minds as it is in let’s say the american debate yeah right so it’s really important that people become aware of the fact that yes we can also face tyrannical governments and the pretty words that they use are just pretty words but you are going to end up poor and miserable and so well so so the farmers so you see and and this seems to be a leitmotif for for your political operating is that you seem to react as if if it bothers the farmers and the truckers it’s probably wrong and that seems to me to be an extremely useful rule of thumb and it’s also one you’d think the bloody leftists would adhere to given their hypothetical concern with the working class right because you can’t get more bedrock working class than farmers and truckers so and that does seem to me to be a reasonable measurement tool you know if the policies are bothering the farmers and making them protest something is up because that’s just not how farmers operate not generally and the same can be said for truckers when they’re goaded into political action something genuinely rotten is occurring and you know with this regard to these sustainable development goals if you wanted to feed the bloody poor the first thing you would do is lower energy costs by whatever means necessary and so if you think you can quintuple energy costs and feed the poor you’re an idiot or you’re malevolent you know or you’re narcissistically self-serving or some terrible combination of all of that yeah yeah so my goal for now is to i mean i want this agenda abolished right i want the the 2030 agenda abolished i don’t want to vote for politicians who say oh you know yeah maybe it goes a little too fast let’s push it to 2035 you know a fast way to hell or a long way to hell it’s still a way to hell and i just want the whole thing gone so that’s where i see my role in this and i want to continue my political commentary and you know in that sense i’m at you guys’s service because i have not forgotten where my food comes from and i want to be able to continue to eat healthy foods and and live my life freely and decide where i travel when i travel who i meet what i eat and i don’t want the damn globalists in my business so i know that if i don’t if the farmers fall like i said they are the group in our society that can make a true you know stance against the globalists they have the manpower as we’ve seen to really paralyze an entire country and so i hope that they do go and strike and that they don’t let themselves be intimidated by these people who will come after you but then will let illegal migrants flood your nation and won’t send them back talking about equality before the law i mean you know i so i that’s i’m at your service i i will support you as much as i can and i find it extraordinarily important what you’ve done and very brave especially in a nation like germany so okay anthony so what’s what’s next for you personally the protests this current round of protests is folding down so what do you go back to and then what do you see unfolding in front of you and you’re protesting peers in the well let’s say in the next year or in the next year we have to get rid of this government no matter how this year germany cannot survive two more years of this government and i mean it honestly i told you earlier we we had our finance minister he’s free he’s from the free democratic party and he told us today on stage because i forgot to mention this we in germany are farmers we have to leave four percent of our land not ceded so nothing is allowed to happen on this land because our green um minister wants this to happen saying in the same sentence we have to fight because there are so many people starving to death on this world we have to fight for every handful of grain this is ridiculous it’s insane actually and he’s right in one point every uh 3.8 seconds a human being dies starves to death every 13 seconds a child um under five years dies of lack of food right and in the same sentence we are uh over flooded with grain from ukraine and then we have to we have to leave four percent of our land where we have to pay tax and we’re not allowed to seed anything on this land it’s insane but our finance minister today said it’s a point we can talk to so there’s a there’s a there’s a goal maybe to divide these two parties in this government i mean they are divided anyway but we can we can really um put pressure on on these free democratic elected persons people or politicians because they are below four percent in germany you need five percent to make the jump into parliament so um all these all these people all these politicians from the free democratic party obviously they have interest in the next to be in the next parliament or to whatever either in charge or not but if we if we put pressure on that that this will make us or give us a chance to divide and maybe get rid of the government so um this is what we’re going to do we’re gonna and and and i mean that we have to escalate another level in our protest and we are capable of doing that easily and watch them come after you for saying this by the way like talking about the totalitarian spirit of the germans that never left and it’s very much present in uh in the current government they’ll i mean i wouldn’t be surprised if they because they’ve already attacked you so massively in the media i wouldn’t be surprised if this would lend us an investigation with what they call what is it the the like the protection of the constitution there’s a whole agency that comes after ordinary people and censors them okay well but well but but let’s um let’s put all that in context i mean one of the things that i’ve been struck by in listening to you too is that you both both implicitly and explicitly indicated your belief that the best possible way of sorting all of this out is through the democratic means that we already have in place now you talked about the necessity for protest and the right to protest and sometimes the necessity for civil disobedience but nowhere in any of our discussion that today the review indicate that there’s any better way forward than the electoral process and the checks and balances that are associated that with that with regard to say the necessity for coalition building in both the netherlands and in germany and so if they do come after you um it isn’t because you’ve been calling for violent revolution and it isn’t because you’re basically turn the government on its head and establish some sort of dictatorship radicals you know you you you both and this is actually something that’s very positive to see is you do believe you appear to believe that um we can work out these problems within the democratic frameworks that we’ve already established and more importantly that there is no better way that we know of to work them out and that seems to me to be correct you know i mean it’s incumbent on us if we’re facing political or ideological strategies that we don’t agree with to find our way forward in a manner that doesn’t throw the baby out with the bath water and so well and then you see the example in the netherlands too of the fact that the kinds of protests that it hasn’t been as effective in canada by the way but although we’ll see what the long-term consequences are in the next election you know you you have shown in the netherlands the the farmers there certainly showed that these wide-scale protests civil protests and they have been markedly civil like they were in canada do can and do have a walloping impact on the structures of governance and so you know maybe we need to take something approximating a five-year view of this you know that this is the beginning of something new and we don’t want to get too hot and bothered about doing anything too radically stupid and we can let the electoral process play itself out and and so does that seem in keeping with what you’re hoping both of you absolutely and let me point out our protests in the last week i mean we had we had probably 200 000 farmers and tractors out on on the roads and we had so many normal workers out the the truck drivers were out on the streets and we it was so friendly and and peaceful we had no i mean in holland we saw some scenes where police even used a weapon on one farmer there was nothing like that i mean honestly not even nobody nobody got arrested nobody got even a ticket for a fine for anything i mean imagine that so many people out on the street and in context to that yesterday we had a demonstration in berlin left-wing demonstration with 21 injured police officers right this is this is one one demonstration in berlin and one week of demonstrations all over germany with hundreds of thousand people out not even a ticket not even a fine nothing so nobody can tell us we are not peaceful and and like i said i was a police officer i know what some demonstrations can turn out to be and still be and still be in legal rights and and we will carry on peaceful friendly but we need to increase the power and like if i said we have the power we can shut down the country for good and we will do if necessary so so that’s also a very optimistic set of observations because you know not only did you point out that the people who were protesting did so like the canadian truckers did with extremely piece of peaceably in fact the crime rate in ottawa fell during the trucker convoy but also the authorities in germany as you pointed out responded in kind right and that there wasn’t provocation and there wasn’t violence and so that’s all the more reason why we can be optimistic that these difficult discussions that we’re having about how we’re going to conduct ourselves into the future can be done within the confines of of the legal frameworks and the electoral frameworks that are already established and with hopefully a certain degree of goodwill and intelligent foresight on all sides so well good all right well look you two thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today well we’ll keep in touch all three of us with any degree of luck and because i definitely want to watch as this unfolds i certainly share your sense ava that if it’s upsetting the farmers and the truckers then something serious has gone astray and that everyone should be attending to that’s particularly true for farmers in places like the netherlands and germany who are as anthony pointed out well generally extraordinarily competent people in a very very difficult enterprise with their ears to the ground and their eyes open and also very unlikely to act politically unless necessity has driven to them them to that extreme and for everybody watching and listening on the on youtube your time and attention is much appreciated you want to be alert to the goings-on in europe on the populist uprising front in spain in poland in germany in the netherlands because this is a harbinger of things to come all right till we talk again bye bye bye thank you