https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=dlS3gJJJY6U

young girl dancing to the latest beat, has found new ways to move her feet, and the lonely voice of youth cries what is truth? What is truth? Young man speaking in the city square Trying to tell somebody that he cares Can you blame the voice of youth for asking What is truth? Yeah, the ones that you’re calling wild Are gonna be the leaders in a little while When will the lonely voice of youth cry What is truth? This all world’s wakin’ to a newborn babe And our solemn lists where it’ll be their way You better help that voice of youth find What is truth? And the lonely voice of youth cries What is truth? Alright, well, welcome, welcome. I hope everybody had a good week. My week was, you know, a week, unfortunately, I guess. But we’re here now. We’re here to talk about embodiment. So, yeah, it should be fun. And we do have, hopefully, a couple of surprises. But at least one special guest to help us out. And yeah, before we get to that, let’s get our Sam Pell. We can get to the regular grocery store. So we’ve got these coconut snack bar things. And then I’ve got some Good Earth tea. Got the Good Earth tea. It’s good. We didn’t do the marathon tea, mainly because we forgot with our own tea bag. It’s like too late. Wrong tea bag. No table rock tea today. Maybe we’ll have some later. We won’t have marathon tea, though. That stuff winds you up. So, yeah, let’s introduce our special guest for the stream because of the topic. I thought it was appropriate to try and get an expert or somebody with some gravitas beyond myself, we’ll say. Someone who is probably to some extent known around these Internet parts, as it were. And so, yeah, I’m happy to introduce. There it is. It’s her. Herb is all the way from D.C. And he’s here to help us to talk about embodiment. And, yeah, hopefully Herb will be able to do that today. And, yeah, Herb has a lot of experience. He’s got seven years of office experience and he’s been in the business for a long time. He’s got seven years of office experience and he’s a master level Karen negotiator. And, yeah, I think that’s significant cred for what we’re trying to do here. And I know Herb’s microphone is muted, but maybe we have some audio of Herb that we can use here. Sort of the voice of Herb, if you will. Yeah, let’s see if we can get the voice of Herb out here because I think that’s reasonably important. What do you have to say for yourself, Herb? What do you have to say for yourself? Hello, Embodiment. Hello. I hope everybody could hear that. I thought it was quite nice. Welcoming us to embodiment. And look, before we sort of touch on embodiment, I wanted to just go over a couple of interesting things that happen because these are always interesting events, right? I was quite pleased with my notes this morning, earlier today, when I’m supposed to have my notes all in order and almost never do. I thought I had this topic pretty wrapped up in my head. I thought it was good. Then I read a tweet from our dear friend Jesse, of course. So I had to add what I think is possibly the most prescient and dramatic ending to my monologue. See, this isn’t a one-man show. That isn’t what’s happening here at all. I’ve been over this before, but given the, we’ll say, events of the past week, people are not getting it, right? I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s not getting through, right? There are a lot of people cooperating, participating, working hard behind the scenes, not just on some art, which I have great art, obviously. Sally Jo does a wonderful job, and I suck at art, so we can tell. But Mark does the board. Need I say more? Or editing, which I can do, if poorly. But also on the ideas, and more importantly, the expression of the ideas. I can’t stress that enough. I am constantly getting feedback from a group of people, and it is not an insignificant group of people, and they are not stupid people, and they are good people, which is really the only requirement. Are you a good person? Good. Come join us. Not much requirement. We don’t say, are you disagreeable? Don’t join us. No, we have Manuel. Right? And me, like I’m disagreeable. So we worry about the good. We don’t worry about many of these other qualities. And we worry about people helping. And look, I can’t stress enough, because I want to mention this, because criticizing this stream is not merely a criticism of me, of Mark. It’s not. It’s a rejection of the work of a bunch of people who give me regular, helpful, often negative feedback. They are all a part of the body. Now, look, I’m going to talk about agreement here, because that’s important too. Right? The goal here is not to get agreement, but perhaps to show you how to find, how to work towards it on yourself. Like how to find agreement yourself. I think that is key. The nature of agreement and how to have things in common. It’s easy to watch anything from the outside. Find what looks like a flaw from your external perspective. And look, it may be, but perhaps it’s a tradeoff. And that flaw that you see would have been worse had it been moved elsewhere. And that’s what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the nature of the agreement. And that flaw that you see would have been worse had it been moved elsewhere. Because sometimes that happens. But is it useful? Wouldn’t participating in something imperfect but bigger than you be better than attacking something that isn’t what is in your imagination? Which could be a fantasy, by the way. And look, this is just some quick framing because I’ve been asked to tie more things together. And this came up last week somehow. And, you know, the key to resolving these things, to finding common ground, to true exception, is the topic tonight. Embodiment. So how do we conform to the true? Embodiment. Not imaginal thinking. Not fantasy. Not hallucination. Not that these things aren’t helpful, right, because we went over that last week. But we only know the truth through our participation, which requires our embodiment. This doesn’t solve the problem. I’m not here to solve problems. Because, look, you can embody rebellion rather than cooperation. And the only difference is the level of acceptance that you have. You can accept having something in common and things that you don’t have in common. And which one you focus on actually matters. So what does embodiment do? Embodiment keeps you grounded. It exemplifies constraint. It gives you humility. It provides you contrast to know when others aren’t being honest. The earth has no tonal enchantment. Movement shows you what is natural. Moving in and with nature shows you what is good. This is what helps you determine where you begin and end and where you begin and end and where other people begin and end. Embodiment. That’s how you determine these things. By using our bodies to interact with the world, we learn boundaries. We talked about boundaries. Previous livestream. We gain physical intuitive discernment. We talked about discernment. Previous livestream. We embody the patterns around us. And what does this do? This gets us out of the propositional tyranny that John Breveke talks about. We’re no longer asserting how the world is with our words. We’re no longer trying to use language to manipulate our experience. Because we can’t. We can say, oh, yeah, when you said that, I felt really angry. Even if you didn’t. Or you can say, oh, yeah, I felt hurt when this happened to that other person. Oh, okay. But it wasn’t you. Do you know the difference between where you end and other people begin? Because I’m not sure. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. But I’m just not sure. You can assert your feelings, your feelings, your feelings. Your fantasies, your hallucinations on the world with words. You can. You can. That’s why embodiment is critical. You have to get out of that propositional tyranny. You will tyrannize yourself and others without even realizing. Embodiment gives you a perspective on criticism. When we know how imprecise, nuanced, and uncontrolled our own actions are, our own facilities in the world are, we are less likely to be critical of others. Because other people make mistakes. They are like us. We are all imperfect. We’re all muppets. I’m a muppet. You’re a muppet. We’re all muppets. You know, you’re like, oh, I don’t want to be a muppet. Too bad. Too late. It’s all over. Chosen. Thrown. If you want to go there. I don’t know why you’d want to go there. It’s dumb, but you can go dumb places. I can’t stop you. How do we know that we are imperfect? And how do we know how imperfect we are? Because we interact imperfectly with the world and embodiment makes this abundantly clear to us in the moment. You see a cat fall off a shelf and then walk away. I mean, did you do that? That happens. I’ve seen cats do that. Cats are kind of famous for that sort of garbage. They just pretend like, nah, bro, didn’t happen to me. It’s all good. And we can do that too. But we shouldn’t. We should have a little humility. We’re imperfect beings in an imperfect world doing things imperfectly. Kind of sucks. But it’s also kind of wonderful. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. I’m a muppet. How do we know the spirit from the body? Spending time in bodies helps us with that by providing contrast with just being in our heads. Video games, not embodied. Movies, not embodied. When we fail to engage with our body and use our body to engage with other bodies, boundaries, nature, other persons, learn our physical limits, yes, yoga is useful, so are the martial arts, then we fail to properly understand the world. I cannot tell you how much of what I do and have done in my life was predicated on martial arts learning. I have no idea because it’s embodied. There’s that whole thing about becoming like your parents and I’ve talked about this before. Your parents were a certain age. When you started to like pattern them, right, don’t want to get into ages and what times people pattern, who knows, who cares, it doesn’t matter. The point still holds. When you reach that age, you’re going to naturally follow those patterns or rebel against them completely. Usually you follow them up, which is success. I mean, that’s evolutionary success is follow the herd because on average that’s the best idea by the way, just mathematically. You can model it mathematically if you’d like. I think you should, especially if you don’t think that’s true because that’s true. Very important. And look, conversational agreement is easy to get, but it’s harder to follow through on, to validate. It’s ephemeral, weak, fleeting. It can lead to all kinds of places, but rarely where either person thought the other would get to. Easy to fix, maybe between two people, maybe, maybe, scale that out. Good luck. Now you see the issue. Maybe you can get agreement between two people if you spend enough time and you have enough rules or you’re able to follow, you’re both able to follow those rules because that’s even more important than having the damn rules. But what if those things aren’t true? That’s a big ask. And sure, two people, maybe. No problem. What about four? What about ten? What about a hundred? Now we’re in trouble. Now we’re in trouble. It doesn’t scale. I’m not saying conversations are useless in terms of conversations. I’m here! I have conversations with people of a certain type. They’re not the just chatting conversations. No, they’re not supposed to be. They were never advertised that way. It does what you thought. You need to pay attention. You weren’t paying attention. Clearly. Not that I haven’t had just chatting conversations, but they’re called just chatting or just shattering or whatever other little pokey thing I like to do. That’s not these streams. That’s not what I’m doing. I never said that’s what I was doing. We have a body here that we’re sharing with others to participate in. There’s a lot of work that goes into this. And, you know, maybe most of it’s my work and time. I don’t know. But, there’s a lot of work going into this. Let me ask you a question. You’ve probably heard people say this. I learned by doing. What do you think that means? I learned by doing. I’ll just leave that there for you to ponder. Embodiment might be the consequences of your framing. Jesse mentioned this on Twitter. Jesse always feeds me good little nuggets when he can. And he does a wonderful job. And hopefully he’ll be able to join us. Maybe even on time for once. Who knows? He’s an artist. Get it? Forgive him. Look, this means that you can frame things that your body cannot do. But learn about that later. This is that imaginal that we were talking about last week. You might believe, if you are a materialist, that this isn’t true. I’m sure you can come up with examples. But let me tell you about the four-minute mile. Everyone thought that it was a physical barrier. That no human could ever break the four-minute mile. It wasn’t possible. It couldn’t be done. Until someone did it. How did they do it? They just had a different attitude. They were like, it can be done. That was the framing. And then they do it, and then everybody else does it. Like a tidal wave of people. Once they saw it done, they were like, oh, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this. They saw it done. They could do it, but not before. And the first person to do it didn’t see it done. That’s the power of the imaginal. That’s the power of fantasy. That’s why we need these things. It breaks Zeno’s paradox. How do you get to the wall in the material world? You can’t. You actually can’t. You can only touch the wall in the material world or reach a goal in the material world. When you’re not only in the material world. You have to go into this imaginal realm where you can reach the wall. You have to believe that you can reach the wall. You have to believe that a human being can run a certain speed. You have to believe these things. And you can come up with counter examples. You can say, oh, that won’t work for gravity. Although some people say you can defy gravity. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for you. You can’t. You can’t. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work at all. And examples are nice, but single instances cannot be universalized. The world is complex. And I know people are doing that now. They’re just finding a rebellion, a way to, oh, I’ve got this one example that just proves all your other examples. One example doesn’t just prove all the other examples. It’s not how the world works. How do we conform to the true? To what is true in the world? Embodiment. Not imaginal thinking. Now, that isn’t helpful. But we only know the true through our participation, which requires our embodiment. We talked about participation. It’s in a previous livestream. This doesn’t solve a problem because you can embody rebellion. You can embody war. You can embody fighting and criticism and all kinds of things. Rather than cooperation, the only difference is that if you accept what is common and what is not. If you don’t do that, the cooperation turns into opposition. You try to embody beliefs. But when you have bad beliefs, you just corrupt. You can see this physically. Or at least some people can. I can see it very clearly. I can just look at people and go, oh, that person’s a problem or got problems or whatever. And look, Peterson talks about this. You believe what you act out. The action, the embodiment is the manifestation of your beliefs. And the non-manifest beliefs are things no one else can participate with. Unless they share the same delusion, which muddies the waters for sure. This is why the Internet is dangerous. It’s easy to propositionally pretend. And I’m going to say all propositions are pretend, in fact. Because they’re imprecise and they’re inaccurate. Language just sucks. It’s got problems. But you can pretend that you’re acting out things that you’re not acting out. I’ve done it with people. I’ve done it outside the Internet. It’s not that hard. You can do that. But it’s quite dangerous indeed. Because you also need it. You need to be able to envision breaking the record to break the record. Otherwise, you’re going to break the record. Except maybe by accident. Is that what you want to rely on? It’s just not all you need. And just because you can imagine it, purple talking unicorn, that talks back to you, and you talk to it, doesn’t mean you can manifest it. Or anyone can. Or a group can. Acting as if is dangerous indeed. But lots of stuff is in the middle of that. Groups can manifest bad things for a very long time. Before those things burn out. Momentum is a thing. And this is part of how exemplification and mimicry is bad. And this is why virtue is important. When we cannot discern virtues and values, we cannot judge what to act out. We need to find commonality in a higher space than that which is constrained by mere material. By matter. By physicality. If we stay stuck at the layer of physicality, matter, material, we will be in opposition. With each other, with ourselves, with others. It’s just not good. You have to rise above. You have to go into the ethereal realm. Into the ephemeral. To find the commonality that we need to cooperate. Together. And how do we do this? We live in a world with nature. With persons. With ourselves. Not some fantasy on a screen. Not some text from others who think like us. Plant a garden. Get a dog. Raise some chickens. Go fishing with your friends. Go camping. Start a fire. Tend a fire. Get in silent contemplation. Rumination, perhaps. And enjoy the interaction with yourself. I’ve talked about this before. What is the measure of a man? People ask me this. Or have asked me this many times. How long can that person sit in a room alone? Staring at a blank wall. Most people can’t even imagine doing it. I like that song by Alanis Morissette. Where she stops and then resumes. She asks, Why are you so petrified of silence? Here. Can you handle this? And then it stops. Did you think about your bills? Your X? Your deadlines? Or when you think you’re going to die? Or did you long for the next distraction? When we ruminate properly. We test our embodiment in our heads. And maybe that’s what proper rumination is. And we’re not going to be able to do that. Contemplation of your embodiment in a model of reality. That’s different from, we’ll say, pure fantasy. Or hallucination. Or just regular imaginal play. Maybe this is the serious play Verveke likes to talk about. I don’t know. There’s a marked difference between unrestrained talking purple unicorns and imagining yourself running a four minute mob. Embodiment shows us that connection is not automatic. It’s not free. Some of it is not optional. But even that, to do well, takes effort. It takes effort. Just because you live on the same planet doesn’t mean you can get together and cooperate. These things take time, energy, and attention. Embodiment teaches us about criticism and rebellion. These are all levels of cooperation which can be negative, opposing, or positive towards agape. Homeschoolers are embodied. They have time to play, experiment, do things in the world. Impact. See how actions change the things around you. Embodiment teaches you intuitive prediction of the world. That deep poetic information you gain from interacting with nature. And with other people. It teaches you the proper way to do that engagement. We’ve got our knowledge engine model. It’s on the channel. That’s what it’s about. It’s about four ways of informing the world. Propositional, procedural, good stuff. Need it. Not denigrating it. But when that’s all you use, you get a problem. You still have to participate. And you need poetic connection with the world. You need that information of the non-linear connections of the world. It’s not optional. Embodiment teaches you that intuitive way to predict poetic connections around you. The ones that you participate with. In the moment. In the long term. In the short term. And I don’t want to harp on it, but what is AI? AI steals the embodiment knowledge from humans. It’s necromancy. It takes the knowledge that’s been embodied and translated into propositions poorly, because propositions aren’t very good at that. It’s not their function. Maybe all we have if we’re talking about spoken language, but they’re not good enough at it. It steals that from us. And it uses it against us. Except it doesn’t use it. Other humans use it against us. And now you have a tool, a technology. Technology is just a lever, according to Jonathan Peugeot, against others. And look, very powerful stuff. And when we give it agency, because we’re the ones with the agency, it can do amazing things. But if you have a bad actor, they’re going to do bad things. Already been done, by the way. Not talking theoretical anymore. Never was. But it’s a tool. It’s a tool. It’s a tool that’s been used before. Never was. And look, when you do something in the world, when you are properly embodied, others who have not or cannot do that thing are judged by your success. By your results. Jordan Peterson talks about this. Clean your room. See what happens. It might not all be good. People might get very upset that you’re cleaning your room because maybe their room isn’t clean or clean enough. Or maybe they didn’t want you to succeed because they wanted you to be as miserable as they are. That happens. I’ve got relatives in that situation. We all know people like this. We’ve seen them. They’re out there. There are people that just live in resentment. They live to critique. They’re unhappy. They don’t like it. Those people exist. Those people exist. Those people exist. Those people exist. And I think it’s worth kind of figuring this out. Like, if you can’t embody a point. If you can’t participate with it. Then why is it interesting or important to you? It might make you feel good. I can make people feel good. That’s not hard. I don’t think it’s my job. Sometimes it is. But it’s not hard. Saying good, happy, kind, fluffy words in a nice way. That’s not hard. But it’s not hard. Saying great, fluffy words in a nice, calm voice is great. Everyone feels good. But if you can’t participate with it, what are you doing? If someone cannot explain how you can embody something, then all you have is a description. What is this? Let me give you a description. It’s San Pellegrino. Let me give you another description. It’s San Pellegrino. It’s San Pellegrino. It’s San Pellegrino. It’s San Pellegrino. It’s San Pellegrino. Let me give you another description. It’s a green bottle. It’s a green bottle with a blue label. Do I need to go on? It’s a plastic bottle. It’s a 33.8 fluid ounce bottle. This thing’s got tons of descriptions. Peterson goes over this. We don’t see objective descriptions in the world. We see utility. John Breveke goes over this. How do you know things? You know them by your interaction with them. If somebody describes a bottle, if somebody describes something to you that you’re not interacting with, game B anybody? Well, I can describe game A, and I can describe game B. And then I ask those people, what can I do? How can I play game B? They don’t have an answer. None of them. None of them. I’ve asked them. I’ve seen other people ask. They don’t have an answer. Let’s suppose they’re right. Who cares? No one knows how to participate with it. It’s great. You get a wonderful, beautiful sounding, coherent narrative. A lovely description of a wonderful thing that sounds great that if it could be, I would be happy with. Sure, but it can’t be. Because I can’t embody it. I can’t participate with it. It’s just a description. That’s good articulation. That’s Sam Harris. Oh, they’re very good at articulating things. They’re idiots. Well, you know, the way your brain works is these chemicals fire off all wrong, by the way, but whatever. We’ll just assume they’re right, even though they’re absolutely not. And then that’s why you feel depressed. It’s like, no. And so what if that physical description is completely accurate and precise? So what? You can’t even get to the chemicals in your brain. You can’t even get there. Even if you open up your head, you can’t get there. You can’t squirt serotonin on your brain. It doesn’t do anything. We actually know this, by the way. I’m just saying. We’ve tried this garbage. It doesn’t work. And when we do get stuff to the right place at the right time, our efficacy rates are like 30%. Almost all prescription meds have an efficacy rate of something like 30%. There are some exceptions. Aspirin blows the bell curve. That’s why everybody… Things like aspirin and penicillin, that’s the reason why drugs are great. And just that most drugs that aren’t in that 1%, that Pareto curve, are terrible. And I’m not saying they’re not better than nothing. I’m not saying don’t take drugs or whatever or listen to your doctor or whatever. I’m saying, be realistic. This isn’t some fantasy solution. I’ve been in the medical system. I was sick for like 15 years, man. And look, I was helped by the very expensive drugs that were $1,000 a month for a while. For sure. No question about it. Not on them anymore, thank goodness. Not that they were bad, actually. Quite harmless at the end of the day. They’re just super expensive. In Canada. In Europe. American drug price thing. Just expensive to produce. And here’s the real problem with embodiment. Information that we get from exemplification. That kind of information that’s participatory, right? And that’s poetic. Maybe you can describe it in propositions. Maybe you can break it down to a procedure. That’s not actually what’s going on. Right, it might be the best way to communicate it. But that information that you get from watching others per people’s embodiment is unconscious. You don’t even know it’s there. You can’t interact with it. You can’t inspect it properly the way you can other types of information. It’s moving you in ways you can’t fathom. Embodiment teaches you what comes next. The importance of sequence. Why things matter. Sequence matters a lot. Processing matters a lot. The process without sequence seems to work but works well enough sometimes. But it’s wrong. And you’ll never know that from the procedure of the process. I watched a show ages ago. It was probably on PBS, but maybe not. So many good shows came out and that model afterwards on Discovery and some of these other channels. The Canadian healthcare system had a problem. Now, it’s centralized medicine. One of the great advantages, no doubt, about centralized medicine is you have a single purchaser. So Canada at the time had one purchaser for all the hip replacements. They just buy them all in bulk. Keeps the price down. Absolutely great. The hip replacement hip manufacturer made a small change to their manufacturer. And no one noticed. Because there was no visible sign that the manufacturer could change because it was just procedural change. They swapped the order of operations of two items on an assembly line. Because of this and nobody knew this at the time nobody realized it a bunch of the hip replacements started failing. They had a huge failure rate of hip replacements. Which, you know, then you have to go in for another hip replacement. Sure, it might be free, but now it’s costing the government way more money than it would if they had multiple vendors, say. Because then the number of incidents would go down on average which would be just to offer means some kind of like Lower Lowericy is a little less preventing Europe from increasing its scientist competition, right? And then it’s going on for a little while longer. too early in the process, they changed the process, so they were doing it too early, so suddenly they had all these failure rates go up. Because of that, there was mineral oil that got put on the part afterwards and not squirted off by water, because they were cleaning the part too early. Took them forever to find it too, because stuff like that’s hard. This is why relying on procedures is dangerous. This is why we need intuitive knowledge, that participatory way, that poetic information. You need that. Look, often when we cannot explain something, it’s because we’ve never embodied it properly, or even at all. That’s a wonderful idea. How do you expect to do that? Well, you know, I’m just gonna start a business. It’s like, okay, do you know what the core components of a business are? Do you know what’s most important in a business? What kind of business? These details matter. If you’ve never embodied it, you won’t learn that. How did Elon Musk become wealthy? It’s not just that he’s super smart, he certainly is. It’s not just that he’s super engaged, he certainly is. It’s not just that he’s a hard ass and a good manager because of it, he seems to be. It’s because he failed in business when he was young. That’s why. It’s the only way to learn that. Lose a bunch of money failing in a bunch of businesses. And maybe it’s not a bunch of money, maybe it’s a few thousand. You know, you can start your own home business pretty easily. You’ll learn a lot. Then you can explain business to people, or at least do a better job than you would be able to if you never tried a business. Now, I haven’t read the book, but I hear this Bible book has this thing called, you shall know them by their fruits. Don’t know what that means, but it might be relevant to embodiment. Just saying. It might be that the truth is known by the fruits. Hmm. Not the talky talky. Blah, blah, blah. The most common thing that you have with other people is your body. Your ability to be embodied. Do you want to find common ground? Do something together. Cooperate, participate. Don’t even talk. Don’t converse. Our imaginations can go as far apart as you can get. Because they’re unconstrained. And even if they have constraints, I don’t know your imaginative constraints. I don’t even know mine. But the constraint of a body, even if that body’s a corporation, or a club, or a church, or an institution, those constraints allow us more commonality. They allow us orientation. You don’t have orientation without boundaries and constraints. Not there. Our most common perspective is the one we have when we’re embodied, when we’re doing things in person together. Look, I’m not saying you cannot converse with somebody and find common ground. I do that. I did that here last week. Watch the stream. A lot of you did. Thank you. It’s just hard to get a common perspective with less body. When you’re further apart physically. Why is it that we have great conversations while we’re eating together? We’re grounded. Sure. You can nail down people in their perspective, reveal their logical inconsistencies. No problem. Did that last week. Did it work? I don’t know. Didn’t work as well as just shutting up and eating a meal together. And it’s hard to get a common perspective when you’re eating together. It’s hard. You have to be exact and precise and careful with your words and your speech. It takes a huge amount of effort. When you’re all sitting down by the campfire eating, you have a common set of perspectives and goals. Your imagination, your fantasy is constrained. Perhaps even by the cognitive load required to be with other people and pay attention to them. Your imagination can’t wander so much. Your common perspective and ground is now evident. It’s eating or it’s sitting by the fire or it’s fishing together. Consequences are more immediate, more real. There is more information in the moment. Body language, tone. I could go on. Conversation won’t save the world. Doing things together in silence will. No, really, it will. You can’t necessarily talk somebody into that, but you don’t have to. You can just do things and some people will just join you. And it won’t be everyone you want and it won’t be the people you expect and it won’t be that, and they won’t fail to disappoint you. But that’s what you got and it’s still your best bet. Don’t let perfection be the enemy of the better. Not the good, the better. You want a perfect thing, so you won’t get better because you’re waiting for that perfect thing. Or you’re waiting to find the perfect solution or the perfect way or whatever. The journey of a thousand steps The journey of a thousand steps begins with the first step. More contributions. Myths and legends are the way we show the embodiment of the ideal. It’s how we communicate the embodiment of the ideal. And you can get cynical about that and say, well, they’re prepositions. It’s like, well, yeah, we make a distinction between myths and legends and stories. Interesting, why? These myths and legends are the exemplification. They’re the model for us to follow to be closer to the ideal. Note that they live in fantasy and in imagination. We take these myths and legends in the way they’re written, and we cast them into our brain in a way that they become embodied to us. In commonality, when we have these myths and legends in common, we have common ground in our imagination. It’s amazing, it’s a miracle. And again, we covered this last week. This is how you constrain your imagination, your imaginal world, so it doesn’t go into fantasy and hallucination, but stays into prediction, stays into embodiment, into rumination. We need our imagination to model the embodiment of ideals. We need it, because we’re not there yet. We need to imagine our future selves, the person that can run that faster mile. As Peterson says, our ideas can die, so we don’t have to, we need that. We need that kind of play. Is that serious play that John Vervecke talks about? Maybe. But it’s safe. That’s the way we play safely. But again, as we discussed, we cannot live there. We can’t stay there. People try. They play video games all the time. They play video games with others, and they go, look, I’m with others. No, you’re not. They play video games with others and it can be something that no one can be. Are you with others? How’s that talking purple unicorn doing? Mind’s doing quite well, she says, in case you were wondering. How do we know we are close? How do we embody the ideal with our body? Ritual, together. Seems too disconnected from physicality? What’s the point? How does ritual work? Why should we bother? Scientifically, how does it work? We’ve been doing it for thousands of years. It’s been working all this time. What is the core problem? Why aren’t we participating, cooperating in embodied fashion with the same highest ideal? Because we’re not sharing myths and legends. We don’t have common ground. We’re not ritually together. That’s a problem. So Manuel did a series of tweets on Twitter. If you haven’t followed him, you should definitely get this tweet stream. It was very spur of the moment. Sorry about that. And his tweets were about agreement, what it is. And maybe Manuel and I should do a live stream about agreement. It’s an important topic. How do you get agreement? You know? And how can you get agreement that’s not embodied? Because it’s easy to agree in person and harder to fool yourself about it and fool others about it. It’s harder to project on other people when you’re in person with them doing things. Seeing them do things, kawaii. Cooperating, not opposing. No opponent processing. Cooperative processing to build something. Opponent processing doesn’t build things. It just tears them down. You can be postmodern. You can tear everything down. But I don’t think you should. Your ability to cooperate and conversation is limited because it is bounded by words and understanding. Perspectives. I don’t share your perspective. Sorry, I’m never gonna. I’m me. You’re you. We grew up differently. I’m from New England. Whole different thing. Paul Van der Kley talks about this. Paul Van der Kley and I have no problem clashing in a conversation. We’re from the Northeast. I mean, he’s from New Jersey, which is obviously the lesser part of the Northeast as everybody knows. But you know, we’re still close enough. Hopefully he’s watching this and chuckling. If he does watch it, he will chuckle. But you’re bounded by words and your understanding, your perspective. Your ability to find commonality in action and cooperate from an embodied place has fewer variations and nearly always has a single or a set, a limited set of goals. So you’re coming together around something. Conversation can wander anywhere. It can go in thousands of directions. It’s not complicated. It’s not complicated. It’s not complicated. It’s not complicated. It’s not complicated. It goes in thousands of directions. It’s not constrained by a body. And when it is, say, when we’re talking about theology, the limits are not as hard. People can stray into projection, psychological projection. People can stray into talking about their feelings. The constraints are not of the same type. And that is why it’s easy to get agreement when you talk. But in implementation, everything changes because you have to deal with constraints, and implementation is imperfect. do those who can’t teach. You want to know the difference between mere illusion, helpful imagination, imaginative play and fantasy? Embodiment is the key. All right. That was tiring. Anciment herb does not have tea. He’s got his Sam Pell. Hopefully that’s good enough. And look, if you want to join, paste the link. I’m going to pin it on navigating patterns, which is the only place I can do such a thing. Feel free to jump in. I am going to finish through these. William, incarnation isn’t intellectual knowledge. It’s heart knowledge. Oh, interesting. Interesting divide. Very similar to the knowledge engine model. As a man, it took me six decades to realize this. Only six? You’re doing good. William, Jacob Richard crashed and burned. So much like me in 2020. Oh, William doesn’t like cats, not a dog. I see. Ethan, spending time in bodies. Yep. That’s what we do. That’s what we do. And there’s various levels of embodiment. You know, there’s various levels. So we’ve just got to be aware of that fact, ultimately. I pin this message. There we go. Now I’m back. Well, Rob, I’m glad you agree with some of my propositions. We can’t help propositions. It’s not optional. William, positive aspects of parents follow, but bad aspects don’t follow. Right. And if we had the discernment to do that, that would be great. But we often don’t. And that’s the issue. Like, we don’t always have the discernment. Anselman, Roger Bannister. Yeah, that sounds familiar. That sounds like the guy. Oh, William Branch, love chariots of fire. Yes. It’s a great song, great theme song. All right, Williams, give him the thumbs up to Herb because he likes Sam Pell. That is true. Oh, our friend Benjamin Franklin is back. Another description of the battle may, may it, it’s pixels oriented in a certain manner on my screen. Yes. Well, that’s, that’s true. It is just pixels after all. Oh, Jesse’s here already. Hello. Welcome, sir. It’s nice to, nice to see you embodied on my screen. What did you think of the monologue there? Expensive, thorough, and pleasurable. Well, thank you for the… You embody the principles kindly and great. Couldn’t have done it without you, my friend. Words up because coffee. Oh, thank you. Hope they didn’t waste a good Sam Pell mineral water. There will be no wasting of the water. Herb from DC will, will take care of it for sure. The primacy of beauty. Plato writes something about the notion of being a good person. Nemesis, oh yeah. Re-embodiment. What it means to be a good person is always grounded in a perspectival situation that is its condition. Yeah, that’s an interesting way to think about it. That’s why Plato said it’s so hard to be imitated. Yeah, well. It ultimately has to be embodied. Oh, well, you’re welcome. I’m glad I could talk about this. Sally Jo, video games are accomplishment porn. Burn them with fire. Yeah, that’s not a bad idea. Dan Smith, true. Unlike contemporary America, which strength is its diversity. No, that’s actually wrong. Early societies used to bind together and unite by their own rituals. Well, actually, that’s what we did. You should read American Nations by Colin Woodard. Common ritual seems to have been thrown out. Well, only recently, I would argue. In American schools, it used to be I pledge allegiance to the flat. In every school. I’m just saying, we threw out a lot of stuff. I have a video on education versus training. It goes over that stuff that got thrown out. Well, we got off the gold standard. We did not embody the gold standard anymore, did we? We were not on the gold standard from FDR. Everybody in the United States didn’t read any history at all. They talk about that, and I’m like you do know it was actually illegal to trade gold in the United States after 1943 or something goofy. Maybe it was 45. I forget. It was FDR that did it, not Nixon. Nixon did something else that we could argue is more or less evil, but it wasn’t that. Let me put it that way. That’s just people being retarded because they don’t bother to read. I’m not a fan of people being ignorant when it’s 20 seconds of research to look. Really? You’ve got a computer? Google it. FDR took us off the gold standard. You couldn’t trade gold in the United States as a citizen before Nixon. It didn’t change that much, guys. It may have changed something significantly, but. Anselman, when you spoke about unintentional breaking of a record, my mind strayed to recall the breaking of the final LP. Well, okay. That’s the problem with words. They’re imprecise. And I don’t know how the hell you’re going to interpret them. These nutty Scottish people can interpret words all kinds of weird ways. Just imagine what the Aussies think. I don’t even want to know. William, in pre-literate societies, everything relied on body language. Yeah, well. Yeah, a Greek horror dancer absorbed with the Greek. Indeed. Indeed. Neutrino, Nixon closed the gold window which stopped other countries from exchanging gold. Well, actually, there’s a lot of evidence that actually all we did was force everybody to trade gold and not share with their citizens. Which I’m not even sure is bad, wrong, or avoidable, right? Because you have a bigger population. You can’t give them all gold per exchange. So maybe only the large money exchange. I mean, I’ve said this about Bitcoin many, many times. Bitcoin is really good for large money exchange. It’s just terrible to buy pizza, groceries. And always was. Because the transaction time on it was huge. It’s like five or ten minutes sometimes. It’s insane. So, you know, I get my credit card, I get out of the grocery store in minutes, which is really good because I had to go to the grocery store before I got here. Boy, I needed every minute I had. I needed every freaking minute. So, I don’t know if my screen presentation worked. Nobody told me. So, Jesse, tell me if this works. I’m going to try something again here. We can see Herb, that’s about it. Well, I’m going to do the Herb thing again. So, let me know if Herb speaks. Hello. Hi. Hello. Did you hear any of that? It’s very, very quiet. It was loud to me. It was loud to me. It was loud to me. But you heard it. I would say the audience would find that indistinguishable. Damn. I wonder if I can fix it here. Hold on. Where is it coming from? What’s the audio path? It’s from my computer. You know, you can play video through StreamYard. Who’s here? Catherine. Catherine. Hello. Howdy. Coordinating on Twitter. Thinking it actually happened. Thank you for your embodiment. Oh, you’re welcome. It’s perfect. It’s perfect. I apologize. I did not have enough time to get the Herb thing quite working the way I wanted. But I’m glad Herb is here. It’s good to have Herb here drinking his wine. He’s a little cold. He’s a little drunk. He’s a little drunk. I’m glad he’s here. He’s a little drunk. He’s a little drunk. We were woefully unprepared. It was all last-minute stuff. Totally my fault, too. I have no excuse. Catherine, welcome. It’s good of you to join us. Did you hear the monologue? It’s one of those like isn’t this kind of obvious? Like you have to live in an incredibly Gnostic society to think that your life wouldn’t be embodied and that your embodiment wouldn’t be where you both gain knowledge, practice like it’s distracting. Yeah, anyways. That was my main thought. Joe even said that it’s weird that he has to teach symbolism. Yeah. That was the signpost in this little corner. Well, I think that’s why. Because we’re not embodied and embodiment and the poetic information that symbolism gives you are related somehow. I don’t want to say how, but that’s part of the knowledge engine model that we use. So, yeah, I mean, it’s all right there. You need that poetic information to participate properly. When you don’t have it, it doesn’t work as well. Soon to be a podcast. Soon to be a podcast. Yes. Everything is soon to be podcast, thanks to Jesse’s wonderful efforts. Like I said earlier, like, you know, you can get all down on the live streams in particular. Live streams are a culmination of a lot of people’s work. And, you know, criticizing and insulting and, you know, poking at it. You may think you’re hurting me, but, like, honestly, I don’t care about your freaking opinion, but the other people do a lot more than I do. So, you gotta be careful with that. I’m just saying. Some people’s feelings might get hurt. I don’t think that happened in this case, because I’ll take all the arrows. I don’t care. Your arrows won’t puncture me anyway. Well, Herb seems like a tough guy. I think he’ll survive. Herb will be fine. He’s made of stone. He’ll make it. He’ll make it. Catherine, how was the embodiment at Chino? What do you think that came across as a summary? Hmm. Well, it’s always, like, it’s always a little unfortunate for me, because I’m a little pulled back away from everybody else, right? Like, I’m on the stage, which means I’m not actually getting to have all the conversations and be in all the meetings. So, I only have, like, my slice. I guess everyone only has their slice. My slice of that, though, was lots of really good conversation. No drama. No, like, you know, conflict of any kind. Someone didn’t see drama and conflict. Well, that’s good to know, Catherine. Well, I’ve heard that there might have been a little, but it wasn’t a primary feature of the conference. And I wasn’t there when it happened, so so it wasn’t part of my slice. I think that the people I spoke to were very, felt like they were getting to have meaningful conversations and it was a meaningful time. The speakers all seemed happy with what they were able to do. So, I felt I fulfilled my mission. But from my personal embodiment, I do always find it a little, like, I like being in the conversations, right? And so when you’re hosting, you’re not in the conversation. You’re just sort of facilitating, which is fine, because somebody needs to, but I like this. I like talking, so. So, the hierarchy rears its ugly head. And the bottom line is, the person that facilitates the conversation that everyone else gets so much out of is making a sacrilege of is making a sacrifice. You think you want to be a leader? Yeah, go right ahead. That’s the reason why most leadership fails. Because they don’t, they can’t sacrifice. And if you can’t make a sacrifice, you can’t lead, you can’t be part of the hierarchy. You can’t embody that constraint that causes everything to work. And I do want to go over these comments here. So, Benjamin Franklin, I’m confused when people say good. Of course, everybody is. This is because I imagine that there is a person who thought he was good his whole life, and suppose everybody around him thought he was good, and then the society retrospectively revises its opinion. Well, who cares? Maybe he killed American soldiers or something. He’s certainly bad according to society. No, your opinion doesn’t matter. I don’t know, I thought that would have been clear by me. No, no one’s opinion matters. How’s that? I’ll just state it flat. No one’s opinion matters. And that actually doesn’t get you out of that. It’s like, oh no, I’m being judged even though I’m good. Welcome to my world. I don’t know if you saw the drama on Rando’s United about last week’s stream where, effectively, let’s be honest, a bunch of lies were told about what happened in the stream. And I was like, what are you doing, bro? This is just inaccurate. It’s just inaccurate. You know? More drama, I missed out on. Hello, sir. Hello, nice to meet you. It’s good that you missed out. Rob, have you met Catherine and Jessie? No, actually. I meet them now. Nice to meet you, Jessie and Catherine. I know Catherine from the channel, so I know more about you, Catherine, than you know about me. Sorry. I’m just joking around. I’m just joking around. I missed the last minute or so because I was getting hooked up here, so I heard you bring up last week. I agree with what’s been said so far. The monologue was great. Hard to disagree with that. Thank you. I thought, Catherine… Although, go ahead. Go ahead and find a disagreement. I’m looking for something to disagree with. How can I… disagree? But, I mean, then I heard Mark talk about last week, so let’s continue down that line, Mark, if you wish to. Alright, give me a moment, and we’ll do that. And then we can catch people up on the last week drama. So, the primacy beauty said a criticism towards me, Benjamin. No, that’s funny. That’s funny. Look, we’re all ugly. Some people are more ugly than others. Sally Jo, whiny Kate shows you’re doing something productive. I agree, Sally, when people whine about you in hatred and anger and resentment, that means you’re being productive. You’re cleaning your room and they’re upset. And that’s what I saw for sure. Nathaniel, growing up, I didn’t enjoy reading fiction. I don’t even believe there is such a thing as fiction. I gotta do that video. And I find it difficult to connect with now. Any advice on where a late 30s voracious non-fiction reader should start? Feels like poetic is missing. Look! Great books, great books out there, right? I mean, you know, Hender’s Game, Snow Crash, really good. Neuromancer, good stuff. Really good stuff. And there’s a lot of dangerous stuff around that. And I know Vanderclay’s been doing the space trilogy there that Ted was talking about, CS Lewis’s space trilogy. And then look, Sally Jo’s, get some helpful anthem. Oh, anthems. Anthems good. The fiction books that got me. I was similar to Nathan before. I used to only read non-fiction. Then I read Tolstoy’s Death of Eve and Iliac and that sparked my non-fiction passion. I basically only read fiction. I only read fiction now. It’s not fiction, Rob. There’s no such thing as fiction, man. I’m telling you. It’s in the fiction section, trust me, dude. It’s not a biography. Oh, yeah, no, no, no. It’s an invalid category. I’m going to do a video. I can prove that. Of course. Okay. You should explain all of this, Mark. You should reinterpret the literary industry. No, a bad story you don’t read. Right? So, and this is Peterson. Like, what’s more true? The Ethnic and Gilegamesh? Or like some historical telling of what they did with the, you know, whatever. Right, Dune is true. Space is a cruel mistress. Lord of the Rings, obviously. These are good things. Yeah. Because they’re not fiction. And I would argue that Tolkien didn’t even tell good stories. Like, his stories are terrible. Anthem and a Shager just like a fiction. But I love poetry as it is and even more real and not fantasy usually. Yeah, poetry’s great. Japanese manga would have had better blood letting. No. Japanese manga is evil. Anime is evil. I’m gonna go into that for sure at some point. Start with a shorter story. If you want to get into fiction, go short stories first. Yes. Like 150. Gulliver’s Travels. And then you’ll get into it. There we go. Get a good science fiction anthology. Treasure Island. Yeah, all my stuff was short stories. Well, look, Call of the Wild. Call of the Wild. I love Call of the Wild. Huge fan. Huge fan. And White Fang. White Fang is great. Anselman, I have no interest in reading Lewis’s fantasies. I would appreciate Paul Vanderlake extracting his apologetics from it. I agree with that. I totally agree with that. I’m not gonna stop anybody from reading it, but I’m not a huge… I’m an oddball. I think. No, no. You’re just a little too Catholic for Lewis. His four Muppet recommendations in fiction. The Troublesome. Hold on. Give me a sec. Although I’ve got to finish this. That’s a good one. Precisely what we’re up against. In so many ways. It does. It explains AI. F. Scott. Great Gats. If you want to talk about embodiment, this is someone embodying obsession. That’s a short one. So don’t worry too much about it. That’s a short one. It’s a good one. It’s spicy. It might be a bit too dry for some people, but Foundation by Isaac Asimov. There’s a way to read this. The cult is embodying ideals over time and how it changes culture. Interesting. And you can’t talk about this man too quickly. But gosh. Cormac McCarthy, the Border Chalogy. Including all the pretty horses. The Crossing, which is the one I would point to. Seas of the Plain. And the You were talking about embodiment. There’s three books about embodiment. Beautiful and hard to read. Romantic. Oh, Don Quixote. The problem is that’s deliberately subversive literature. So it’s a problem. Well, the whole problem with this conversation is we were talking about embodiment and now we’re talking about reading, which is not embodiment. Nathaniel brought us into it. So look, the thing that happened with last week’s stream is that there was a randos conversation when last week’s stream was mentioned and all kinds of criticisms and flat out inaccuracies were leveled at the stream and you could have handled that better. It’s like, oh really, genius. Well, thanks. I got an idea. Why don’t you handle it the way you want on your stream and I’ll handle it the way I want on my stream. Because, yeah, I can always do everything better. That’s not a critique. That’s a statement of fact that is true universally. Everything you do, you could do better. Now what? Where are we at? What are we saying? Come on. Give helpful feedback or none at all. It’s like mom used to say, right, don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Yeah, that’s not a bad rule. It’s not a bad rule. So, yeah, the embodiment of that, and I think you can see it in the embodiment. The embodiment was not good. And look, I didn’t watch the Jacob Richard thing that happened today. Obviously, it was working. But yeah, I mean, someone said it didn’t go well. It went down in flames. I’m not surprised. I could probably tell them why. They wouldn’t believe anything that I have to say, which is fine, and they’re not going to take advice from me, which is also fine. And I’m probably not going to give them that advice anyway, because I just don’t care. Sorry. But, you know, it is what it is. What do you think, Rob? Did you want to I’m just trying to triangulate here. So that would mean that you and Jacob are on the same page about something? I’m not on the same page with Jacob about anything ever. Okay. All right. I thought I just wanted to. Except Jacob’s for the good, and he’s trying to embody goodness. So I support that. Like, I support that as best as I can. Do I support his just chatting streams? Not necessarily. Certainly not all of them. Do I support his style? No. I think his style sucks. I think he makes inflammatory statements to get attention. And I love Jacob. I think he’s great. I’m not asking him to change. I’m fine with everything that he does. I’m very grateful that he has this stream art open to me and to the other people that he opens it to. I think that’s wonderful. Right? I mean, he’s trying to build something. And when he’s trying to build something and not being critical, I am very supportive. Even if it’s something that I don’t believe is going to work. Like, I’m not I’m skeptical about what he’s trying to build. But I’m also not over there telling him, like, you should do this way, and you should do that. And no, you should do it the way he wants. If he wants my freaking advice, he’ll probably ask for it. Probably in private, like a gentleman would. And I may even acquiesce and give him some advice if he asks for it. But I don’t think he will. And he certainly doesn’t have to. And there’s no Jacob? Yeah, Jacob. And there’s no real will there. Right? Like, I’m not like, ooh, my expertise is so important. I need to share it with, I don’t care. Like, if you don’t think I have anything to offer, then whatever I have to offer is valueless. That’s fine by me. I really don’t care. Like, I’m cool. It’s all good. You know, you want your individuality? Let’s see how long that lasts. Have it. Have it. Do what you want to do. I’m fine with it. So, I did end up talking, or not talking, but watching the replay of you and Jesse’s stream with Richard last Friday. I watched it on the replay because I was intrigued by our conversation that we had on like Wednesday or whatever it was Tuesday, Mark. The live stream on Rando’s. Yeah. So I went back and looked at it. And maybe I’ll try to reach out to Richard and try to keep the communication lines open because he’s, I see where he’s coming from. Those communication lines weren’t closed? Where do you think he’s coming from? Well, I, it was on to me in three hours where he was coming. So I’m not trying to be critical. No, no, no. I’m glad to have you guys here. This is very meta. This is very meta, post-meta. Please don’t use the meta word. I’m navigating that. It’s triple meta. It’s triple meta right now. Allow me to appreciate. No, come on. Yes. Now, this is weird for me. So where do I think Richard was coming from? So Richard was in the chat of the conversation that me and Mark had with Teo and who else was in there? There was Sherry was in there on Friday or Wednesday. Yeah. And so he was there. He was like, yeah, Rob, I support you. I think you’re doing good. And what I think our commonality is, me and Richard, is that he sees this whole corner as like a, you know, he’s like, yeah, I’m going to he sees this whole corner as like a well, this is how I see it. I see it as a bit of like a graduate student lounge at a very cool university. Totally not academic, but totally cool. You know, totally, totally fun. You know, we’re drinking coffee and there’s an initial aspect of having these conversations where you want to get on the same page as the other people in the room. Because you don’t want to just be talking past each other. I want to understand what you’re saying. And I hope that you can try to understand what I’m saying. And if we can’t even establish that, then what’s the point of even continuing the, you know, continuing because we’re just going to be talking about the past. There is a point. That was my whole point is there is a point like that was the whole point is, yeah, if you aim low, yeah, you’re going to get nowhere. No, it’s not aiming low. It’s the initial it’s the initial. Look at what Jesse’s doing. He’s pointing, right? He’s pointing at an empty whiteboard. I can do the same. No, I’m pointing at the frame. How you frame things matters. So there’s no stop. There’s no picture. There’s no story here. But there is a frame. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. That’s just an empty page. There’s nothing to be talked about. It’s the same thing as the empty page. No, it’s not. No, it’s not the same. Jesse has a frame around it. No, that’s actually hugely important. That’s what embodiment is about. It’s about the frame, not the page or the canvas. It’s not about the page. The page is an object itself. This is an object. An empty piece of paper is actually not an object. A single sheet of paper is an object. Catherine, come on. This is a single sheet of paper? This is propositional tyranny. This is propositional tyranny, Mark. A single sheet of paper. A propositional tyranny. A page is not. Language matters. Okay, let’s move on. The goal of the initial stage of a friendly graduate student level lounge conversation. We’re not in a debate. We’re not here to ruin everybody’s career. Have you been to a lounge? At a university? I’ve been in the hallway. Okay, then you know there’s lots of debates going on. So please, go on. No, debate is good, but to get to the debate, you first have to spend time. Debate is not good. No, debate is good. No, debate can be good, but it is not good. It’s not universal good. Okay, fine. We want agreement. The purpose of debate, the end goal of debate, is to achieve a resonance, a harmony. Maybe. That’s why I don’t do debates. Ever. Problem solved. You can talk about debates all day long. I don’t engage. So how do two people with disagreeing, so how do two people with two different ideas of, the whole thing, Richard never got to the debate. He was just trying to do the definitions. Richard never got to anything. No, he wasn’t trying to do the definitions. He was trying to take over the dream. No, he was asking questions. He wanted clarification. That was my trouble. I wanted clarification. And I was having a hard time achieving the clarification because I was called a rebel. You weren’t going to get any clarification. Like all the information that you needed and could possibly have had was there, and it wasn’t going to get any better. Where, when? Where before I got there or where I had to go back and look at it? No, I mean, look, look. I don’t have time. I mean, the archives are one thing, but we’re face to face. Can’t you just give me a paragraph? Let me answer your question. Let me answer your question. The thing that you are seeking was not there because there was no goal to make it happen. Now, and this was Richard’s problem. Oh, you must be here to do X. And I’m like, no, I am not here to do X. I was like, no, no, you must be here to do X. No, I’m still not here to do X. I’m doing Y. No, no, you must be, no, I mustn’t. And I wasn’t. And that’s not what was happening. And that’s the problem. That was the problem. The frame was wrong. And so, look, you know, Richard stayed after the live broadcast ended for quite some time and talked to Jesse and I. So all these people, give me the dish, tell us. Well, no, no, he was poorly treated. He stayed. We had a wonderful chat afterwards. In fact, it was far better than the chat when the stream was on, which should tell you a bunch of things. I’m sure I’m probably one of the best But you already know. We talk on the line on our questions. And like, what if somebody was Inaudible, gonna call Ganzio’s Tribute Division that he Support để the YouTube channel start online. Well, you didn’t know that before you came to our live broadcast book, bueno, I’ll tell the right right now. Drink a chip wellaxes worth. Work, I’ll tell the right right now. It was a or your observation conversation through the principal you put forward that was it it was with we’re here to debate we’re here in this lounge debate his high school thing then he knows not high school not high school well well doesn’t matter it’s postgraduate high school who’s correct come on give us well i don’t like academics i’m not an academic i’m an artist so well we’ll let you in well maybe it’s a starbucks at harvard square we’re at harvard square you can’t you can’t even cast the key is you can’t keep them up all right let me let me catch up on some of these while you wonder what we what we said and based on what you saw i think i want to get you can either comments hurt so all right dj Franklin i think maybe the film professor can have a relationship to embodiment of course he can just not with his family it’s not that hard the director maybe um but not the professor uh sally joe kathryn we could fight windmills we could yes freaking kathryn sally’s an artist don’t believe her i’m just saying i love sally don’t believe her don’t even go there what else do we have richard is a tough nut hazelnut he was you know look i enjoyed talking to richard i thought it was great that was a wonderful exemplification of the topic of and and even afterwards right like yeah yeah uh-oh sally joe’s calling me out lies mark jacob and mark are in the same are on the same page like two times a week and they both do things Benjamin Franklin jacob’s dreams are fun if they are talking about some interesting topic well look interesting to you and interesting to other people vary so maybe they’re all fun depending upon who you are right uh but a lot of the time it’s just pointless banter maybe about nothing or meta conversations i hate that word and that’s why because it’s meaningless uh about having conversations well yeah sally joe does uh it’s so meta it’s meta what’s wrong with meta come on give me a break sherry’s story about her talking to god’s feet actually made me cry well look it should have it made me cry it was a good story totally distracting what is going on here this page is ai generated speak up herb i will try to get her to speak up it’s it’s hard we did this last minute sally oh man it’s not a debate though we are not here for people to win exactly so okay understood totally understand in order to get to agreement in order to get to agreement or disagreement you have to first understand what is being said this is what i mean with the initial stages yes you do if you’re no you’re misunderstanding you can never achieve agreement if you don’t understand what’s being said no that’s actually not true like i can actually prove to you that that’s not true and and that’s the problem is that if everything is only propositions then yes you’re screwed and this is this is jesse’s point you can frame any conversation as a debate literally anyone it’s not that hard you might be wrong though and then where are you then you just don’t understand the conversation anymore and that happens to people all the time yes so okay so pause pause pause yes so what happens if you don’t understand the conversation or the proposition if you don’t understand what just watch just watch the last stream dude no why can’t you provide clarification you should provide clarification because you watch the embodiment you watch the communication what what if there’s no amount what if there’s no amount of clarification that can make that person understand have you considered well you don’t know what if you don’t know maybe you could try to use other words in that stream tell a story i saw jesse said he’s into stories and maybe you could tell a story that would help you so you’re saying we didn’t tell any stories at all in that stream i think richard could have if if you guys are into story and you like to articulate the meaning through story then are you could have understood are yes maybe richard could have understood any stories in that stream to try and get richard to understand i think you were trying you were certainly trying no forget exactly what you said story one can get richard to understand because that’s he’s brand new you don’t know him that well he just got here it’s a phrenic but you just are people like no no no no no no no he he’s not a you’re holding me up to a standard that’s arbitrary that you think i should meet and i get it like i’m flattered that you think i can talk to anybody about anything and and and make them understand framing but i can’t and i don’t want to and i’m not you can the only other people you could but that’s actually what you just did that was the frame you just put me in no see i have a special secret i’m from massachusetts that means i can understand you mark i know what you’re saying and nobody else understands except except the other few people from massachusetts those are the only people that know what you’re saying and even i have my doubts sometimes about what you’re saying that’s not that’s not true i can communicate with sally just fine and she doesn’t even talk right so there you go well it’s got a dialogue right so there has to be a logos which is nothing to do with correspondence right which is what you’re talking about rob you’re talking about correspondence and even in that position that’s a proposition no no no no no i’m that’s i’m i’m telling you what you just talked about for like you’re telling me a proposition you’re telling me a proposition no i’m literally stating a fact tell me a story okay i did okay a story is man in a hole that is every story that you’ve ever encountered ever man has a problem man has a question man in the plural it is no literally is that like literally every story has embedded questions in them and depending on the complexity of that question is the richness of the story even you know extraction too it has questions underneath it in my my father’s son like that it literally like that’s it’s one of the questions within that um chris hemelsworth film like even dumb action movies have embedded questions right but it doesn’t make it doesn’t this doesn’t add to the complexity of the richness of the story so i will admit i did not watch the last stream so i feel a little bit like uh either if if we’re going to keep talking about the last stream i might dip or we can talk about embodiment and i’m here for that but um i feel like i’m very yeah let’s talk about this conversation yeah let’s talk about embodiment but i want to catch up on these things so william white cow lizard greatest art of all time no it’s polar bear polar bear better than white cow telling you william you just haven’t experienced art until it’s the polar bear not the cow we have to debate about the true nature debates no we don’t that’s self-referential stuff anytime you self-reference it’s wrong it’s automatically self-reference paradox contradiction wrong bad way to think about it limit of your frame shall we do apparently there aren’t rules for the game no one is playing that’s what stood out to me just chatting stream should be okay i like that statement uh that’s your rule for your stream this isn’t a just chatting stream and you knew that unless you didn’t watch it or maybe you watched the stream and you didn’t hear the rules which i state in every stream because this stream is embodied and the body is that we’re here to talk about the topic that starts with the monologue although we don’t have to stay there right those are the rules for this engagement and it’s always stated it’s always known it’s not a just chatting stream putting me in the frame of just chatting stream is unfair and making up rules for this little corner and what it is and isn’t is fine but then i’m out the minute you guys make any rules i’m out let’s ask kathryn about embodiment let’s ask kathryn about embodiment kathryn what do you how do you best body things well hold on hold on we’ve got to give the credentials first we’ve got to give kathryn’s credentials because they’re super important kathryn is a body that has created other bodies so if anybody knows about embodiment kathryn is it go ahead kathryn tell us about embodiment i like being at the top of a hierarchy this is fun um well one of the things i was thinking while you’re doing your monologue mark was i was thinking about how for us to be like as humans we you were really emphasizing the way that we have foundational knowledge through embodiment that we can’t even articulate which i don’t disagree with but so often we need it’s sort of like um these things are kind of like patterned and cyclical right where you have to embody the thing but then you need to be able to articulate the thing to be able to then move on to a new phase of embodying the thing in a new way now you wouldn’t that’s not the only way that that could happen you could also watch somebody else changing what they’re doing and you just follow along and change that but often what we do is we embody a thing and then we ruminate on it and we process what we’ve been embodying and so we try to figure out what we’ve been doing and often you know to your point that we don’t have to be able to say what we’re doing we can’t articulate what we’re doing we we come close and we come up with an explanation of what we’ve been doing and whether or not it’s accurate kind of doesn’t matter it just has to be accurate enough that we can find a way that we could maybe embody that thing slightly better and so i think um acknowledging the fact that embodiment patterned with rumination and integrating that with the other ways of knowing can bring us to new levels of embodiment that are more in line with um our ideals i like that see this is why we need you in on the live stream action because you know we picked we actually picked this topic way in advance right we had it last friday that’s way in advance for us and and i missed the point about the cyclical stuff um yeah well i could argue that that adding in the cyclicality can come later but um but it’s good that you brought it up and i mean who better than a body that has created other bodies to uh and is in touch with nature to a degree that none of us will ever be well isn’t this connected though why katharine when she first came on said you know why do we need and talk about embodiment well because we moved away from any conception of what femininity is we could say that we can say we’ve been tucked in yes to the back mirror from our bodies you know and again look i mean go ahead text me i’m not gonna see it like like you can control that you know you can control how much time you spend playing video games you can you can you know and if you can’t you’ve got to put yourself in a situation where you can right because that’s the thing too and maybe that’s surrounding yourself with people who won’t let you who will constrain you because we all need external constraints even from other people and that sucks if you’re rebellious but if if you realize your better self lies with your interaction with others then uh maybe it’s okay again and yeah i like i like that you that you brought that up definitely so thank you this is why we need you in on these little things so that so that uh i’ll try to show up the other thing i was thinking mark is um the way that i was just thinking about the way that embodiment is uh integral not just to how we understand ourselves but to all of our emotions like the only way that you i mean i’m sure you guys know but the way that you experience an emotion is you have a cascade of um physiological things that happen throughout your body and then your brain interprets that as an emotion and then you figure out what you’re feeling so the physiological happens first then the assessment of the physiological then you scan to figure out why the heck your body did that thing so you have those emotions but then when you watch somebody or you listen to a story the way that you understand how they feel is you map those onto yourself so your mirror on have the cascade of what they would have in that situation and that’s how you can have empathy and so the fact that as a society we have become so disembodied and we aren’t outside i mean how many people listening to this will will swim out in a random lake somewhere or the ocean like who’s going to do that hopefully some people but that would have been everybody in the path everybody who had access to water would be in water right who’s going to go and wrestle somebody maybe some of us not a lot of us so there’s all these ways that historically we have been embodied for thousands of years as creatures and we don’t embody ourselves in those ways anymore and so our ability then to understand other people and to understand ourselves through that is seriously limited and i think it contributes to the distance and the intimacy crisis yes well i like how you live that in obviously as always the dangerous okay yeah when we’re not intimate with the world right we don’t learn how to be intimate with ourselves and with others and then we’re in a constant rebellion against ourselves like and then we get into these loops where we’re like no i want this this way and then you get it that way you’re like no this isn’t what i want at all and it’s you know people do that they totally break down and they they they you know it’s a serious problem right like i mean i know it’s funny but it’s also a very serious problem i see people do this all the time and they’re stuck in these conflicts and and i did want to loop in these comments so are debates verbal wrestling match over who controls the frame no uh some can be like you know if you’re a post-modern power power from above narrative person you’re screwed um oh ethan has a question for catherine which conference was better and why was it and why i should have known i didn’t i wasn’t quick enough but yeah it was because i got to hang out with you in thunder bay and obviously that was that’s the answer she’s not going to take a stance on that and if she did she’s biased thunder bay was her conference so i know i am biased it’s not fair that’s okay i i i appreciate his framing because i thought that was brilliant and that’s an that’s a good example of right it’s a good example an obvious obvious obvious and amusing example of framing but but framing is important sally joe he says agreement but it means i order i order to dominate this conversation yeah well that happened nathaniel weeks ago i had a question about framing on this channel and it helped a ton when you told me to watch a bunch of earlier videos i’m glad to hear that that makes all this work worthwhile thank you maybe there should be a few participants check out first yeah maybe you know what did you play a playlist we could do a playlist we we have one i gotta do more playlists i gotta yeah redo the intro videos here and i just yeah i can’t listen to my own videos it’s really hard if anyone’s ever done it i listen to all of them because after they’re edited i’m the one that goes in and puts in the cards and just writes the description and gets the tags and that’s a very long process for me and yeah it’s you know i mean it’s not like yeah 30 minute video it probably took me 40 minutes but it’s a long process and then i do a thumbnail most most of thumbnails are mine a few of them are other people sally of course it’s on some thumbnails right yeah and um sally if you don’t understand you just have to participate exactly that’s the point of embodiment right that’s the point of getting a meal together right i’m gonna skip spatch’s question because it’s silly um here we go i think this stream has a subliminal product placement for herb a l t herb alty ah yes that is that is exactly so i’m thinking ai and kathryn’s here kathryn and i need to do a talk on ai because uh oh there we go spatch spatch is disparaging rob i think he’s from arkham mass no that’s that’s i’ve actually we we are both from home our hometown is arkham mark there you go we’re both from the same town we are both from arkham mass only the hp lovecraft fans will will get it man in a hole starring liam neeson can confirm and confirm seriously seriously sally once upon a time a frog king was like dying with me peasants and i was like sorry bro but i don’t eat flies and confirm sally i hope you uh i hope you were okay with my embellishment you don’t sound anything like that uh anselman man digging a hole song by renard crivins nice uh uh richard in a hole kept digging deeper well yeah there’s always there’s always that benjamin franklin i’m embodying the spirit of youtube stream chatter as we speak well i hope there is something i’d rather you embody the higher spirit of being together uh having fun and uh uh discussing these important sort of issues anselman i like the word rumination which uses the word for chewing to represent a mental process to sort of embody me look i only bring it up because matthew pidgeot my my wonderful kind of virtual friend now since he promoted my channel and got me way over a thousand subs in two and a half weeks uh mentioned it uh on twitter and i’ve been like oh that’s such a good word that’s such a good concept that’s the difference between we’ll say the meditation of sam harris which is solipsistic and sort of leads to narcissism in my opinion and what you should be doing and the contemplative side will say meditation is a slippery word because we use it we equivocate on the word uh quite a bit which is ironic that verveke uses it and equivocates on it too but equivocation’s hard like you’re gonna run into it Benjamin Franklin and anselman have you heard the song depth of my ego by matt mcgin nope anselman doesn’t like oh he does like matt mcgin okay he’s gonna check it out rob what is this can we embody anything with first having an idea or emotion to embody yeah i think we can look embodiments all about getting in tune with the spirit right and so what is the spirit what is your final cause your your your tell us like what is all that that’s what you’re trying to embody and like herb is you know a straight white cis male so that’s what he embodies and you know down there in dc uh where he’s from that’s that’s his schtick like that that’s his that’s his tell us that’s what i guess so the question i was asking is is there a prerequisite for embodiment in terms of the ephemeral or idea space yeah okay we have to embody something no no no i mean in general but in general yeah right now would have to be included necessarily but i mean in general well you include yourself to the extent that you can and then either you’re rejected because you’re not in the spirit right or you’re accepted and you’re allowed to continue i think i think there is a prerequisite i think that um to be embodied requires some conscious participation with it like you if you’re unconscious you’re not embodied because you’re not participating within that space right so when somebody’s dead their body’s still here but they’re not embodying anything except their body would be embodying corpse but i do think there has to be conscious engagement which is why i think we can end up with sort of split selves when we are embodied like right now i look around my room which is where i’m actually embodied but all of my conscious engagement is in this tiny little four inch screen because i’m using my phone because my laptop wasn’t working so all of my conscious embodiment is with people really far away but my physical embodiment is is here and so i do think that the prerequisite is conscious engagement which can be really really hard if you are consciously engaged elsewhere and so would i’m having i would say yes to this question for myself i’d be interested in hearing what you guys think but are we disembodied where we actually are in our rooms are we disembodied in our rooms and participating embodiment virtually somewhere else why would you say i don’t i feel like i’m disembodied i feel like i’m my body yeah i feel like my intellect is with all of you guys like i’m disembodied here like like kathryn was kind of saying what how far why maybe she should clarify why can’t you embody unconscious ideas or principles or others ideas and principles yeah you can but you just have to be conscious to do that you’re to be a conscious i don’t i mean like literally your brain is awake you can unconsciously manifest things and you can manifest things that are unconscious aspects but you have to have like you have to have a consciousness involved that i think that i think that’s a very very basic like minimal requirement the prerequisite for embodiment is agency right and selling some some people embody in their bodies and some people embody ideologies with their bodies what do we do with depression then agency over consciousness yeah depression is the lack of agency but it’s also disembodied it’s also a subconscious well depression is complicated because depression is a symptom that is a similar symptom for many different causes right right so sometimes you’re depressed because your body is super sick and so you have like this physical manifestation which is the experience of depression sometimes you’re depressed because you have a problem you don’t know how to solve and so you’re stuck sometimes you’re depressed because you’re angry because lots of reasons why you feel people feel depressed um but you at that time are are embodied but you have an experience of embodiment that’s one of distance and separation so it’s a very specific type that would be unconscious that would be unconscious that would be unconscious by nature why would it be unconscious you would not be you can when you’re in the state of depression you are not conscious you’re not aware of all the manifest or phenomena around yeah i’m i’m not using the word psychologically i’m using it biologically though all right does that is that track because i agree with you i agree with you if we use the word in a psychological frame instead of a biological frame right yeah well i think i think again ethan i prefer the word agency over over conscious right and see how i jump my socks slips down inside my boot right and i think that we’re not only embodied in one thing right so i have my body i’m gonna disagree with the agency thing you’re gonna disagree with the agency thing okay yeah yeah yeah because like if i’m a slave let’s say i’m like some horror movie right like you’re tied up gagged you have no control over anything you have no agency the only agency you have is maybe the attitude you bring to it and what you think about but you don’t have any physical agency at all physically yes but you’re still embodied right right but if they knock you out you’re not material we’re not material you’re not embodying yeah we’re not materialist there’s no such thing as as merely physically like agency can’t be reduced to material yeah right you still control whether or not you live or die for example like because you can you are within and experience your body as long as you are physically conscious and i think that’s the only prerequisite for embodiment yeah that’s that’s what but it’s not single embodiment like i am still part of the body that is the live stream at the same time that i am physically in my body and this is where people run into problems they over reduce everything like they want one identity it’s like you’re not gonna have one identity you’ve never had one identity and your identity is going to change over time and nobody likes that answer because it’s complex and they want a simple hint but you know what the world you were born into is complex and and that’s the that’s the problem we lost jesse and i was going back and forth there’s jesse so what did you think of my answer because i felt like we were not tracking there was some i i i would like to refer to the body that regarding framing it’s something it’s something that you something that you’re in in the moment that you are in it’s a it’s it’s you have to afford participation in some way there’s there’s this sense that you there are always push pull tendencies in life and so in what embodiment does is it gives you a locality within what’s happening around you but you can be just psychologically unconscious in that moment as well you but you can be just psychologically unconscious in that moment as well right because i don’t necessarily know all the words in the sequence that i’m going to tell you but i have an insight that or intuition that i’m following the communication that i’m trying to give to you but the sanity or the intellect of that is not necessarily in me it’s in something else it’s in the dialogue yeah yeah i would agree i i mean i was trying to answer the question of what prerequisites there are but i don’t think that consciousness is embodiment i think that what you described is a good description of embodiment but the only prerequisite i can think of to achieve what you described is you have to be conscious i would say but then sure because things can be embodied like you know a film can be embodiment of ideals which is one thing i’ve been pointing to story now i have a question do we need a body does does something need a body to be embodied everything needs a body well an embodiment extends beyond consciousness i would say that’s right i mean that’s that’s the purpose of the body principles and principalities okay right well and and i want to address how you can notice your physical and online convo was flipped down with right exactly it’s not a singular thing it’s not like either i’m all here or i’m all there well i i would like maybe um katherine knows about the like the cocktail party experiments in psychology where uh your attention can only really be focused in one direction that’s a lot just ring a bell these these experiments katherine about the um it’s called cocktail party effects i’m curious what mark is going to say because yeah what i was taught was that you can move attention very quickly but you can’t actually maintain attention in one place but it just shifts so rapidly that you think that it’s in more than one place how you drive a car properly that’s well yeah well literally literally because you’re not paying attention to the foot the foot on the pedal you’re not paying attention except there’s there’s no way that that’s what’s happening like there’s absolutely no way that’s what’s happening right because you can drive a car and while you’re driving a car you can have insights and therefore like it really is that like the proof is that simple well you can so driving a car well it’s not the driving a car test it’s not the driving a car test it’s the cocktail party test so there’s a distinction i can participate in two conversations and listen to a third at the same time and i can the test the test says you can’t no no i know the test says you can’t the test is wrong that’s my whole point if you look at it’s always it’s replicable it’s there even in ai if you guys talk about ai this is a good area to bring up about attention and how to mimic human consciousness of course ai does that ai is based on that model of course it does nobody’s made it that way right but they try to get ai to hear like it’s white noise basically i can’t take ai was designed single-threaded it actually was it was designed i think human consciousness is single threaded i know the studies the studies show that it is single thread and not prove that it is not a provable thing and i can show you that it’s not relevant because you can drive down the street well it’s not the driving a car test it’s not the no it’s not the driving a car test it doesn’t matter it’s the cocktail party i just told you the cocktail party i can still do three conversations no you can’t no you can’t it’s about the conversations how people have watched me do it you can switch you can switch you can switch but you can’t you can’t distinguish them to know that there’s nothing i’m deferring to katherine here she’s the professional is there an actual way to measure something like that in the most hard scientific way no it’s all in a some cocktail how do you work but could you i want chinese is going on so the chinese the whole point of chinese whispers is right is the information gets communicated across and the embodiment of the information slowly loses its frame over time so you you can believe that you’re in this cocktail party and be following tracking the information but really what could be happening is the chinese whispers is like it’s happening to you like the information is not correctly well there’s a decay effect essentially the feedback so i’ll just describe the very basic it’s been rep it’s been adjusted developed every year we all know it but that’s not then say it then tell us what the test is tell us what the test is make that claim like so here’s the test not a test so humans are much more able to distinguish the language being communicated in so the first part of the test is they just get the audio they’re blindfolded they just get the audio of a cocktail party it’s just chatter chatter chatter you can’t make anything out if you’re blindfolded then they take the blindfolds off and suddenly the success rate of understanding what the person over there those two people in the cocktail party are saying goes way up you can understand what they’re saying with your eyesight so it’s it’s a matter when it comes to ai they’re trying to develop the ability simply for ai to hear the audio of white noise conversational and stuff and it’s a very tricky thing to do with ai because you think because you are based on these models no no no no it’s based on empirical it’s based so ai should be able to distinguish each conversation in a white noise conversation if it’s if it’s 100 people talking and it can’t right it demonstrates it demonstrates the complexity of people understanding the visual cues in but it’s it’s so clear once you get the visual cues and it’s no longer white noise it makes perfect sense almost to this level it’s it’s been tested over and over there’s is it why you know what no look look it’s white noise when you’re blindfolded look i’ve read those those damn studies there’s so many methodological problems with them but let me give you the big one the big one is these idiots don’t understand framing so the bottom line is that if you do something like let’s suppose you do the dishes while you’re listening to some not not peterson well maybe peterson not verveky but some say normal class material okay if you move if you’re engaging in something physical but repetitive while you’re taking in that audio information it goes into your brain better well why the hell is that those things aren’t related in fact they’re anti-correlated why is that well it’s because actually the reason why that it gets quiet is because your brain is able to focus when it has less to focus on and the way that actually works is you have a cognitive load your cognitive load is say 12 all the time right when you reduce your cognitive load ability by doing the dishes and you drop it to an eight and now you do something else now your brain isn’t trying to make 70 000 connections with the audio and you actually learn better and that is also in the literature and that contradicts all of the conclusions of the cocktail study all of them are wrong they’re the cocktail study isn’t isn’t a 12 cocktail study this the cocktail party test in the related field of tests related it’s not just one it’s the whole series of tests they never stop doing this stuff it’s not a 12 it’s like a 50 60 100 it’s your brain is overloaded that’s the whole point of the test no your brain is not overloaded yes it is it’s overloaded with separate conversation again i’m gonna say goodbye this is really fun guys all right thank you for showing up give us a party you got two two guys from massachusetts having it out here sorry kathryn it’s okay it’s okay uh it’s been fun i’ve enjoyed i think that um the where we dropped off with the embodiment stuff part of where that was breaking down is i think that we probably have slightly different definitions of what we mean by embodiment um because i would say like a a book embodying something else is very different than if you’re embodied so i think that we could have a lot more conversation about what a useful most helpful definition of embodiment would be and that that would be super fun i thought that was a great monologue and the dialogue has been super fun thanks guys thanks for coming nice meeting you kathryn lovely to meet you yeah you too sorry all right i’ll die again i don’t want to fight i don’t want to chase people one set of a very specific tests trying to do one thing and they will always tell you that one thing because you’re taking them out of a context right but then you can look at these other tests that actually contradict those those first set of tests and in science this happens all the time particularly in psychology i understand for various very good well-known well-discussed reasons peterson talks about right and so that’s the issue is that the ability for you to make connections let’s suppose you’re a crazy artist like jesse you will make all kinds of crazy connections and maybe most of them will be wrong but you’ll be able to self-correct because jesse and sally can right and find really good connections but maybe you won’t like maybe you’re more like grim grits who finds conspiracies everywhere instead right because he’s over connecting the world why because he’s not embodied because he’s not doing ritual because he doesn’t have anything to calm his mind down enough to focus it in because the potential in the in the affordance is too high when your affordance potential is too high you end up schizophrenic that’s technically what happens and that’s why taking psychedelics is dangerous because it over connects your brain and maybe you don’t need an overconnected brain maybe you need actually some marijuana to calm your brain down because people self-treat anxiety with marijuana all the time i don’t recommend either tactic by the way but that happens i’ve seen it all right we’ll have to come back i think rob your argument is that people can understand dialogue right yeah but the logos has to be kind of obvious or manifest or like intentionally perceived in order for it to be like received back from you right it’s a dear logos so in this white noise test and if you find the different conversations happening in the room you have to identify the logos of all those conversations as it happens in time this is exactly right do that because yes yes prioritize yes yes this is all congruent this is why i bring it up right no no no you need the it’s disembodied you you you can’t even with eyesight you can actually do it with just your ears is why you have audio technicians like literally there’s a whole field of psychological warfare too about just noise like pure noise blasting noise that just voice speaking how people speak and the intonations in their i think these tests are more congruent with you guys thoughts like i’ve been talking i think i think you’ll find i’ll i’ll spend i’ll give some information to you during the week uh whatever the tests are perfectly congruent with with with my thesis because i read the damn test and said oh i see the methodological errors that they made in this test and and oh here’s a bunch of other information that tells you more about what’s going on and what’s the frame is the frame is i agree the frame is important i agree but it’s and that’s what embodiment is all about it’s about knowing a good frame from a bad frame how do you know what’s good and evil you know it from the frame you don’t know it from the words anybody can say oh i care about the poor people and then murder all the poor people like that’s not a problem people do that all the time it happens constantly but look i want to i want to cover some comments here because sal has got some good stuff to say and which is more embodied the guy with a plumber’s license or the guy not licensed at all that fixes your fixed your sewer drain but sally that that that sounds weird why where’d you come up with that it sounds random which is more but which is a more embodied plumber a licensed plumber or unlicensed guy who fixed your plumbing right right that’s a challenging one would you guys go to nine o’clock or what time i’m probably going to dip out in a little bit how long do you go we go until the the spirit of the conversation leads us to either do an after cut it off and do an after party or uh continue way too long in the in the case of last week why i was taking the hint that maybe we’re losing part of the audience with me i’m i don’t i don’t think so rob i think it’s fine we didn’t we didn’t lose uh lose uh look kathryn i would say so that’s all we wanted was was kathryn to show up and give us her wisdom and and she just wanted her to help me out more she knew because she the job is not to help you don’t know no no you can’t require that from anyone this is yeah she’s not here to help people out that’s not the purpose in this particular field of study she might have been able to you you noticed she wouldn’t rush to your rescue she did initially i disagree wanted to stay on the actual topic um so you can even segment or if you want to keep talking about your white noise example which is hilarious because it’s another hallucination um you can segment no it’s not it’s it’s a well studied field it’s an audio engineer dude careful so what you can literally segment audio and refine it down into audible means like you can do all right i’m gonna dip out at nine o’clock i’ll send i’ll send some more information i think this is a good thread to pursue for next week or the week after okay i will i will uh i will i will show you all the flaws in the methodology of those studies because i think it’s still relevant i think it’s relevant with ai i think it’s relevant with like attention you get rub rub all of ai is based on all of those psychological studies so yes yes ai is going to have all the limitations that it was built with that is true that is true that’s why it’s purely parasitic because it was built on a bunch of false assumptions that we know are wrong about the brain and that’s why when people go oh we can understand ourselves better by understanding ai i’m like that is such backward stupid thinking that honestly honestly you need help like you actually need help ai is based on a brain model so you are not and the brain model is wrong and you are not going to understand the brain better by an imperfect wrong model of okay sally sally joe wanted me to tell a story so i’ll leave i’ll finish on a story give me give me a minute uh no not a minute but um give me a tell us your story rob stop trying to wait no tell us your story tell us tell me a story your story literally your story rob from new england not call of the wild no i um stories i think how did you get here today how did you how did i get here today yeah i i met mark um me mark went to high school actually and uh he said no he said uh why did you come on the street okay now that’s humor that’s not a story that’s that’s an attempt at humor but it’s an attempt at humor i know emphasis on the word attempt try again why don’t why don’t you why don’t you tell us your story as sally oh yeah well my story is that uh pvk extracted my story from me with his with his uh magic with his magic he enchanted me and so you can go find it on the paul van der glade channel actually enchantment comes a lot up a lot in donkey jote i bet it does so the reason why i think donkey jody is a good story irrelevant and it should be brought up more is because this guy he listened to a lot of podcasts the equivalent of podcasts in his day and it drove him insane and he wanted to save the world yep he wanted to right the wrongs he wanted to slay giants sounds like there’s a lot there’s a lot of overlap here and i think this book is seriously undervalued in correlation to what this little corner is even up to i think there’s a lot of romanticism in this corner he’s still still still rejecting in this corner frame but yes i don’t disagree with anything you’ve said i i think donkey jody is a cool guy even though he’s wrong he’s delusional at times he’s very eloquent he’s a very fun guy i would like to be his friend even though he’s probably crazy there’s something lots of crazy people rob something fun about him so so joe i’ll write i’ll tell this story another time but um i thank you rob good to see you thank you for being thank you for letting me on uh sorry for getting all massachusetts on everybody but bark and handle it okay see you later we’re not here to debate there’s no debates no debates no what do you mean why isn’t that wonderful we have her it’s wonderful i’m not sure but that there’s something you love awesome or something dream the impossible dream man of lamancha yeah i saw man of lamancha it’s pretty good it’s all a play it’s quite good actually it’s quite good amateur play but wow it’s quite the play on the gate no less is on cape cod with my buddy and the railroad his name was uh is his name john kennedy even i think it was anyways last name was kennedy for sure interesting guy wonderful performance absolutely wonderful little tiny theater on cape cod nobody didn’t even know it was there quite the embodiment i don’t i don’t know elizabeth really like you think don’t you think he is the best i mean i was with no i don’t know elizabeth is donkey the best i am a knight errant rob fails to appreciate irrationality look there’s a there’s a uh an episode of uh babalon 5 which is a great sci-fi series one of the best uh and in the episode a guy comes to the space station okay follow me here comes to the space station by the uh by the crossroads where the where the magical einstein rosen bridges are um and he’s looking for the holy grail and he’s like dressed like a medieval knight kind of like in the whatever and everyone’s kind of like uh yeah whatever dude except the mimbari the mimbaria like you are an honored guest we will give you whatever you want and they’re like what the hell are you doing and like the mimbaria giving him like all kinds of resources people and help and and and the the commander who’s from earth is like what what is going on here like he’s a nutbag he’s he’s searching for holy grail and she explains he’s a true seeker and we value true seekers and it’s like yes and that i would argue is the proper retelling don kiwodi because they’re not concerned with the goal they’re not concerned with the search for the holy grail the mimbaria are concerned with his telos which is that of a true seeker not a truth seeker which is different a true seeker he is embodying and and ethos and they don’t know is it right is it wrong you could go back to peterson where is the holy grail it’s in the darkest part of the forest what does that mean is it a physical object or or is the quest for the holy grail always successful if you see it through to the end huh that’s interesting to ponder that’s embodiment that’s a embodiment right there you’re embodying seeking the true right and i would argue hopefully the good and the beautiful and that is important that level of embodiment is important and something could we get him to attack and destroy some useless wind turbines oh man dude i saw your useless wind turbines in scotland i was crying it was very sad it was very sad william brinch yes my kind of i can’t remember which episode that was by the way it’s been too long i need to rewatch babalon 5 clearly i do prefer crusade which crusade is just great even though it’s a half the season probably the best half the season ever it’s it’s better than than serenity for sure yeah and i like i liked the serenity stuff but nah it wasn’t as good as crusade crusade was really good there’s lots of little things in crusade too that are just fantastic like like uh yeah yeah the dragon episode with the golden dragon fantastic fantastic stuff um i’ve said it before right uh modern sci-fi is the same as ancient greek philosophy you know and back to the point of embodiment true philosophy for plato and aristotle was wrestling they spent time in the gym wrestling and that was actually really important to them and there’s a reason for that and we should be wrestling we should be struggling so i had this i had this tweet i got to pull it up because my brain is just not as on top as it should be um but i will grab my post because i thought my post was quite nice life should always be a beautiful struggle with the true towards the good that’s what life should be and it’s the struggle the embodiment and the attempt to embody the true and the beautiful and the good that’s what makes a good life and the goal is not happiness the goal you’re trying to embody is contentedness and if you are content that makes room for the happiness to appear and then you should feel fortunate and then you should go back to being contented it’s one of the things the stoics or at least modern stoicism gets wrong i don’t know the stoics get it wrong that would be unfair but the modern stoics certainly get that wrong and that’s the problem is that when we don’t pay attention to the proper aspect of embodiment we fail in important ways and that’s why embodiment was the topic and i don’t know what the next uh next topic is going to be but we have some ideas there’s jesse uh-oh you’re muted jesse william oh wrestling yes we wrestle with ideas here there he is welcome back did you hear my my additional mini monologue on we were so weird of course i didn’t of course i was in the other room i was in body the other room well i don’t know i can hear everything said like when i go in the other room i would go with embodiment i got i got speakers so i can hear things so uh-oh uh-oh here we go now we got it elizabeth well hey hey you were great it was absolutely brilliant it was absolutely brilliant yeah yeah of course i didn’t think you get that other tab open elizabeth as always oh wait wait wait just a sec oh ethan’s happy to see you as always ethan’s all excited here we go now we got it hey hey which one do i close which way brilliant the youtube one the one that says youtube no no not that one well hopefully she’ll be right back she closed the wrong tab that’s the problem don’t close the don’t close the stream yard tab close the youtube tab i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry i’m sorry youtube tab i usually keep them side by side and then the minute i click in i kill the other tab right away and sometimes i slip up but that happens perfection is not yet mine that is the that is always the problem with these things you know what it was ethan your enthusiasm to see her caused her to get nervous and click on the wrong tab so i’m gonna blame ethan for elizabeth’s absence what do you think jesse can we blame ethan now jesse’s frozen and muted you’re muted and unmute yourself oh sorry sorry sorry audio issues because stream yard is not is not not friendly proper technology proper technology now ethan’s sad because his friend is gone anselman good night thank you so much for joining us i hope elizabeth comes back i don’t know what happened one close one wrong tab and boom the whole world goes away but i’m glad that she liked my model what did you think of my monologue jesse did you like it was it good very yeah there’s little thoughts there it’s like 40 minutes you went for 40 minutes so there’s a lot a lot of thoughts there no okay well i think i’m getting shorter but but more concise i’m packing more in because i used to do like 100 i was thinking that with the with the monologue so these streams uh here’s elizabeth she’s back excellent okay which one do i close the youtube one is that it i don’t know is that it can you hear me yeah we hear you yeah okay yeah it was it was great you know what’s happening well just that’s what i think people are emotionally scarred i should say there’s this isn’t about what this isn’t this is all nonsense this is i don’t understand you’re having a conversation about about what what is and and why is there all this other nonsense i i it’s like the over compassionate mother happening everywhere it’s scary i can’t believe it it’s just like i don’t understand yeah do you want to point to specific or uh more concrete instances because i know what you’re saying well no because this isn’t we’re not we’re not emotional jelly beans like like that’s not who we are and and our society our world has taught us that that’s who we are this mental all this mental health stuff right like yes it’s true and then the categorization can be helpful but that’s not who we are and it’s that it’s you you’re bloody well better step out of it because it ain’t going anywhere that’s i’ve seen it over and over and over again you know even with little kids you don’t you don’t let little kids go there no because they’re going to self-destruct before they’re 10 that you have to get them sitting you know we have to embody you have to get them embodied right right you have to control their embodiment and get them in the ritual sit down to eat yeah right sit at the table right all these little things that aren’t they aren’t little they’re huge and they build up over time and if you’re not constrained i know i knew a lot of people who were like well i’m always up until 2am of course i’m kind of famous for you know especially when i was not sick i could sleep four hours a night so i was up all night long because i could go to bed at 1am and be up at five and there was no problem or 2am and be up at six no problem and so i’d meet these people and they’re like oh yeah i’m i’m up really late then they wouldn’t get up in the morning they get up at like 11 in the morning or noon or whatever and i’m like that’s not good for you they’re like no no i’ve always been like that and i’m like no you’re you’re almost certainly not like that like this i know you’ve done that but that’s not who you are right and they get confused and they think no no i’m a night owl and it’s like no you’re not a night owl and i know people who had major illnesses major major illnesses like chronic fatigue syndrome and and you know things like that all these mystery illnesses Lyme disease allegedly all that stuff and they those illness i’ve known multiple people those illnesses went away the minute they went to bed by 10 pm every night yeah the illness vanished vanished completely absolutely absolutely like we have liturgy right that’s the liturgy absolutely and ritual and the ritual and that’s why like yeah so i don’t really understand why people need to be discussing it seems very strange why people need to be discussing what’s going on your live stream and other places i don’t quite get it like what what is going on you were being critical i mean look here’s here’s ethan ethan is quoting many many people actually mark emmanuel are too mean and they don’t respect people’s opinions and they don’t respect people’s opinions and it’s like yeah well first of all yes i don’t respect your opinion i’m sorry i’m happy to talk to you but and i’m happy to listen to what you have to say and i will and i do listen right and the fact that you don’t get the response you want doesn’t mean i wasn’t listening that’s not what that means and i’m not saying i’m perfect and i’m listening perfectly all the time but i’m saying the fact that you don’t get the response that you expect doesn’t mean i’m not listening i might have heard you better than you really understand right yeah yeah for sure if there’s one thing i’ve learned is that whatever really bothers me it’s about me right right well and we fall into this critical skepticism which i have a video on on navigating patterns just saying right this socratic critical skepticism and it’s not healthy for us because where the hell’s jesse keep going because we’re not that good at being critics and skeptics we’re just not that good at and it’s not to say you can’t do it or you shouldn’t do it or it’s always bad but like you gotta be careful with that stuff man like first of all you’re not socrates you’re not i’m sorry you’re just not i’m not i’m not trying to be well sometimes i’m trying to embody the socratic method different but i’m not trying to be socrates no thank you um right and and and yeah and i think i think ethan’s on to it right people are so narcissistic it’s disgusting yeah they’re so upset when they encounter a person that doesn’t validate yeah absolutely like that was the point of manuel’s tweet people are looking for validation he made a whole series of tweets about agreement and an agreement and validation and it’s just we’re gonna do i think we’ll do a live stream on it i gotta i gotta see if he has the time but we’ll probably do that’s really super that’s beyond important like like like it i’m gonna use can we say it’s meta no but um no i’m absolutely absolutely we’re we’re so lost we’re so lost we can’t even see and then everybody’s mirroring it to everybody else this nonsense it can’t is insights from that rando’s stream on tuesday or wednesday that was about my stream last week his insights as a result of that stream are fantastic they are so clear and he said some of them in the stream he said no no you guys are looking for validation because he figured it out in the moment but then he went on this twitter thing the next day and it was just brilliant because once you’ve had a day to think it through right you get to get all this new perspective and suddenly you have all these insights and and the way he was sharing the insights on twitter too just next level stuff i mean manuel is so brilliant sometimes it’s just it just it just makes you realize you’re a muppet it’s like yeah he has he can stand back right manuel can stand back i i don’t know him very well but i think there was just one time i saw him on this live stream and he’s he’s amazing at that i’ve got some talks with him on navigating patterns but yeah we’ll do another live stream about that about agreement participation and validation because that seems to be where things are the mode of participation of some people is rebellion it’s just no whatever whatever it is no and they have nothing generative or positive to say and that’s how you know are you saying something positive are you giving somebody feedback they can use and participate with or you’re just saying you didn’t do that right you need to do better and maybe that’s what your father said to you when you were growing up or something i don’t know but it’s worth considering buddy but why is it weird that people would do that it’s weird i don’t understand it i don’t understand what’s going on jesse do you have any insight into all of this definitions we we’ve gone through a whole time where things lack definition things lack they lack consistency right and so when someone comes through and gives consistency and definition and redefines things yeah yeah right it’s a threat to your yes sense of sanity or safety freedom that’s brilliant jesse that’s that’s really not i wouldn’t know freedom no i really keep going jesse no but go with that idea yeah yeah yeah because keep going because that’s very important what you said freedom is actually what’s being freed the the push for let’s use the word liberty because i think it’s actually the closer the push for liberty right has opened has once you um yeah you’ve liberty to redefine words yeah and redefine terms yeah yeah principles yeah well essentially you reframe yes that’s what that’s the yeah liberty to choose the frame yeah like narcissistic framing that nobody else really gets like let’s be honest choose the frame and change the frame to meet the words on the page yeah essentially yeah yeah essentially yes yeah but but even so yeah yeah and so what’s also happened is because everyone’s now critic being critical um lacks definition so when someone’s actually critical and not a critique there’s a there’s a there’s a duality going on there i’m sorry it was a contrast probably better to say right so when someone actually gives a solo critique definition it’s an endanger to their sense of critic right because their way of acting in the world so that that causes them to essentially disembodied like they they no longer have a sense of perspective or their point of view is being challenged ultimately well yeah maybe their very essence because their very essence is based on chaos quite frankly it’s one of their identities yeah essentially yeah yeah to talk about identity because so it’s such a hard thing to pinpoint but it’s one of their identities how they function in the world probably better to say changes right okay yeah how they function they they’re embodying all these different spirits all these different manifestations of what they think that they identify with and as soon as you take one of them away it’s like the Jenga blocks analogy which i keep going with it gives them that instability and then they’ve got nothing to go back on because they’re not grounded in anything that’s actually right consistently they’re striving for right they’re striving for freedom freedom from what freedom from constraint and consequences at the same time and you can’t do that you can’t live that way you’re ungrounded by default at that point and now all of a sudden you’re just upset at everything every anyone does and then you try to do what they do when you think they’re being successful and then it doesn’t work for you because you don’t understand their frame you think you can just take the words or or your interpretation of their words which is worse but that’s all you have right and and emulate them in their propositions or in a set of propositions that you’ve invented from your observation and that’s not them and so like you can’t be Elon Musk like i’m sorry you can’t it doesn’t matter if you’re smarter than Elon Musk there’s all kinds of things that happen that you even i know nothing about oh nobody knows anything about and i did i did want to ethan says this needs to meet manuel uh william pushing buttons activate old tapes creating chaos amplified by social media yeah yeah that was why did god create people to avoid solipsism i like that that’s good tell that one to peterson but i think i think it is the spirit of freedom from consequences and constraints at the same time that causes people to critique and then they’re like you didn’t do this the way i think it should be and it’s like okay dude but i wasn’t i’m not on your project and i’m not you so yeah yeah yeah nobody can believe katherine brought up he was the cyclical nature of things right so our sense of reality or how we frame reality right has slowly shifted from a cyclical a seasonal approach to life to a linear progression right and so that that’s a quite a quite a divisive move there right when you’re not able to have these sort of um rest and repeat right everything’s this continual march or continual revolution towards some indefinable unitopia right which is basically to zero going back to zero just in a different way it’s yeah that’s a i’m laughing because it’s exactly true oh my gosh it’s again if there’s no story then in your unitopia literally means no story like literally because once you get to unitopia you can’t have drama say that oh wow once you get to a unitopia there can no longer be drama challenge consequence questions everything’s being resolved everything’s been resolved right and that’s what people are thinking this live stream is that it’s unitopia right and it’s not it’s it’s reality especially you can get on the screen well as much as you can get on the screen but i but the whole idea of embodiment it’s i don’t even know if people understand what they’re talking about anymore because we’re so disembodied all of us right like embodiment is mark to your point oftentimes is is the gardening right it’s the it’s the going for the walk it’s you know making the meal it’s these simple little things that people have always done like it’s in our bone marrow i’m sure in these rituals these people we don’t understand even now the importance of rituals i mean good good teachers did at one point that’s where we want to accept the constraint because we want to be free from the constraint and the why do we want to be free though because we want to be free because we want to be crazy isn’t that true like don chiodi back and go right well look i mean you know that’s happiness constant happiness is insanity yeah that’s you know william falling directly into utopia yeah well that’s that’s it that’s it but yeah i mean what are you going to do how are you going to interact with the world where’s the struggle and if there’s no struggle there’s no story and if there’s no story what are you talking about and it doesn’t what are you talking about yeah like you need sandpaper if you’re going to have smooth wood has anybody thought like it’s well it’s important i like that well i didn’t but yeah like it sounds like something from like the victorian era well my husband’s my husband was was working today building stairs for his little shed at the back right so it’s in my head it’s in my head yeah yeah he’s really a he’s he’s he’s really good with his hands right he can he can build anything it can’t believe it it’s hardly fair because it just we needed a bunkie you know what prior little place without electricity by the way and we were the most cool looking people because we were very alive because we didn’t have electricity because to your point your body even for two and a half months our bodies became non-linear when you spend time in nature without electricity you actually move into reality to the point like electricity’s room and dissolve so well all those all those cycles just the cycle of the temperature and the changes in the temperature go away because we’ve got hbac right right it’s like oh i can keep the temperature within this range right if you live in europe most of europe the temperature changes are nothing compared to what they are in most of the u.s right and so you lose that that you know and there’s a lot of stuff look if you live down south people move slow why because it’s really hot and if you quickly when it’s 95 or 104 degrees out you’ll drop dead you will you’ll either dehydrate or you’ll give yourself a freaking heart attack or whatever that’s my theory i i think that’s why canada is the craziest place actually because of the climate and i’m quite serious i think it’s bloody climate you can see that jordan peterson you can see by listening to him that he grew up in a super cold climate that was dangerous i i think so i think that’s a large part of him why the people in new england the people in new england are hard workers why because you have to work during the summer and the summer is freaking short new england otherwise you won’t have anything in the winter you will actually die like if you are not prepared you’re done and that was true when i was growing up it’s not so true now but it’s still true like that oh you get you know in the winter you’re gonna go up shovel snow sometimes and sometimes that takes a couple of hours so now you gotta get up two hours early to get to work right and yeah it’s a big difference not having that linear sort of same la kind of oh every day is the same man it’s all good right it’s like nope that’s not like that new england and that teaches you to be on the move and it sharpens your awareness because you have to be aware of the weather because it can kill you and yeah it’s a big difference what did you guys think about what what um is it is it kathryn was saying about conscious i didn’t understand that did you either of you understand i did that’s it’s probably a stream on its own it’s it gets into how how you want to um not you want to say frame but um what’s your t loss with spiritual reality that’s where it gets into like what’s happening what’s happening when these energies or these principalities and principles manifest and how like how do you want to deal with them and so i was not debating with her but i was putting slowly trying to see if we had a shared notion of what presence is and how things um i don’t like to describe things to be unconscious i know first say i think this and i don’t like to say if you don’t want to make the materialism distinction although it is helpful but right i agree it’s far better to go to the symbolic which was which i was trying to get to and i still i still haven’t mapped out but what i will say one thing i have worked out this week is how do you know when you’re dreaming and not dreaming it is the perspective it is the point of view tell tell me because i was really interested last week when you’re talking about that what it’s it’s i’m trying to develop like like mark like a series of tells of you know one of one of my ones is how do you know you’re not a muppet like literally like what like like how do you know you know you’re not someone that’s above the standard norm like because it’d be very hard very hard to essentially other people have to describe that to you they have to give you that so you like know you are valuable you are above muppet status but you can’t know that right it’s like you can have the self-belief but it can be completely wrong essentially the other one is um how do you know when you’re not dreaming and i literally think it is a point of view it is the perspective that you you hold because in your dream as soon as you’re if you’re in this unconscious dreaming state once your perspective stage like once your perspectives awakens you could say um you realize that you’re in a dream and in that moment you kind of snap out of it so like that’s how you kind of get out of the fantasy too right like you you have to change your point of view your perspective well and and and literally right when you’re dreaming there’s a switch there’s a chemical switch in your brain where your body is paralyzed it’s actually paralyzed and so in order for you to dream to some extent at least as deeply as you do at night you need to be disconnected from your body to do that and now all of the embodiment that happens in your brain is entirely in your brain because it cannot manifest physically that is a protection method so you don’t sleepwalk all over the damn place and when that protection method goes wrong you can look up the cases of sleepwalking you can see what happens right because our ideas have to die to peterson’s point so that we don’t have to well if in order for that to happen in its purest form at 100 you need to disconnect from your body and that happens at night when you dream and that’s why it is a matter of perspective and i think look katharine’s struggle which is a real struggle she had that wonderful thunder bay conference and you know unfortunately the thing that that you know i certainly thought should have happened was we didn’t start with or even attempt to get to a definition of consciousness or conscience which i think would have been really used like that maybe that would have taken up the whole conference but that would have been an interesting conversation to have and there are very good reasons why that didn’t happen none of them are katharine’s fault obviously but it was and it was a wonderful time it was good that i was there it was great but also yeah it would have been nice had we gotten to the bottom of that because that definition is key what is consciousness i agree i think it to me it feels like i can it smells it feels it feels critically important this consciousness and this unconscious i just see what is it or is it existential because the scientists use consciousness to describe soul and they just pretend they’re not doing that because they’re jerks as near as i can tell or or actually they’re probably not bright enough like they probably just don’t have the capacity to understand the ethereal because they’re not grounded and like fair enough i mean i feel bad for them but you know that’s mit man i spent years wandering the mit halls and yeah it was sad to listen to them talk and then and then when they did get into that they made it about philosophy and i’m like can’t you just go out and like pick a flower like what the hell is wrong with you it’s not like there are flowers on a beautiful campus it’s not as beautiful as as harvard but it’s a very pretty campus and you’re right by the river by the charles river and there’s plenty of ways to engage with nature over there plenty you go go sailing the sailing club well they had a sailing club there but the sailing club like right across the river you just walk there walk over the bridge go do your sailing oh yeah the sailing i did that one summer my mother bought it for me one summer was great got on little boats a very very different sailing from the sailing i was just sailing on the ocean in a quiet bay that was a lot different man because the the hancock tower for example there was a certain point you had to know where it was and of course it shifts because it’s wind so right at the point where the tall building and if you’re not ready and you hit that that boat’s going right over right over man i’ve been in many boats that my father used to love to tip that stupid catamaran because he was just yeah but sailings really talk about sharpening your attention right oh yeah and you’re doing a lot of stuff oh my gosh yeah like it it’s sailing is i don’t know it’s it’s it’s pretty when you talk about embodiment right you’re and you’re working with the wind but when you can do it and do it well and you can start to see the because there’s two cues in the ocean right there’s the cue of the current and you need to know that and there’s the cue of the wind and right man because certain wind patterns look the same when the wind is not and you have to know that and i can’t even tell you how to do that but i can tell you that i can right and and you can discern between the current and the wind and you need to because otherwise you’re not going to be able to sail successfully because you get caught in a current so in maine where i used to sail at hills beach oh there’s a river that comes in and the river current is pretty freaking strong and if you don’t have enough wind you cannot afford to get caught in that current the wrong way and if you get caught in the current because that happens you need to get the hell out you need to know how to do that on two little wind and there’s a way to do it but you better know what it is or you’re going to get smashed on the rocks and it it is yeah it is dangerous william says goodwill hunting well that is one of the best movies of all time and i will fight anybody who says otherwise and they are automatically wrong and should probably not be listened to about anything ever because it is such a brilliant film go ahead jesse go ahead make my day i will fly my ass to australia and straighten you out the embodied way go right i made one of my favorite go ahead do it i won’t though i won’t do i’m a i’m too much of a gentleman to do that take down but i will do it at some point um one thing i i think i have mapped together in some ways is that consciousness and unconsciousness are like rhythms so a rhythm is both a pattern and a feeling right so your rhythm right the spaces between things matter just as much as the places where you’re emphasizing and even then when you’re emphasizing right it’s one two three four one two three four or one two three four right so you can you can still have these but then in between those are like called the off beats or the end beats or the the extra bit of material right that’s unconscious in some aspects but you can feel that with other senses of patterns or rhythms right so things can lock in together so you have both pat and feeling happen at the same time with consciousness that’s kind of where i’m starting to play with consciousness is that in ruminating on that to your point is that feeling so you know because when you’re fully conscious your inner rhythm your inner feeling but also there’s an implied sense of things that are unconscious to you there are other patterns and feelings that you might not know yet and you they kind of need to be brought up or defined and then they’re conscious that’s so what what what what do you mean it’s a musical and symbolic theory yeah but they need to be defined and then they’re conscious because you can’t hear them until you if it’s a musical and symbolic theory you can’t hear these unconscious rhythms on these unconscious patterns until you define them but they are there you can imply them in the spaces between things right which is what’s called a groove right or the back beat or a feeling right a lot of 70s music has this has this sense of this there’s spaces between things things are not as sharp and precise as possible but it has a groove and you get into that groove and it’s very hard to get out of that groove once it begins the actors have to tell you okay now the song’s over otherwise you could just be in that groove forever which is what disco music is i’ve got 11 barry white albums guys like i love video scaler i think it’s fantastic that’s just that’s just me let’s get wow pattern and feeling yeah so that was that that came up on twitter right with druz scology there yeah that was so interesting and i tried to incorporate as much of that as i could but i didn’t i didn’t call out rhythm in particular so my bad it’s busy jade i did not have enough time to do to finish up those last few things i left work really late i was like oh crap i got no time i gotta stop the grocery store i gotta eat i had like an hour i’m like oh there’s not a star i didn’t get that in i do think it’s fair to say though that embodiment is i you embody your rhythm but is it unconscious are we are aren’t we uncut is that embodiment i don’t know i like to think it’s unconscious yeah the way the way i use conscious and unconscious and i do a video on this on navigating patterns right the way i do okay okay i’ve been in everything it’s my goal a video on everything all the important everything not white good will hunting is good though so you’re gonna have to make i will have a video on that soon now it’s gonna be my prayer i’m probably gonna record it tonight just to uh just to challenge you no i i think that the easiest and best and simplest model for conscious and unconscious is that it is a dividing line right and that the things that that you’re embodying can only be you can only inform embodiment through exemplification you cannot inform embodiment through a proposition it is actually not possible i love that that is so yes if you read flowers for algenon which is a wonderful book i think i’ve only read that one twice i have it in the shed somewhere but there’s a great uh part of the book where he’s talking about watching the the two people making donuts they both make donuts that look the same but they use completely different techniques and he’s so focused on the technique instead of the end result that he can’t do it and i just thought that was so brilliant yeah everything else in the book i’m ambivalent about but that i’m actually like no that’s the most important point in the book that’s actually the most important point of the book everything else that happens before and after is like me you know and it’s important and you need it but like you know everybody finds these other points in the book they’re so beautiful and i’m like i don’t even know what you’re talking about the only point in the book that was really important was that point about two different people getting the end result through completely different methodologies and the thing is it’s a book so he’s describing that in a way and it actually freaking works and i would love to be an author that was good enough to do that right and that to some extent that’s part of what i do in my videos right i’m trying to use propositions to show you something completely un-propositional in nature yes it’s funny it’s quite funny it’s humorous right what you’re doing is very humorous i don’t think people understand how funny you are thank you i’m glad you noticed yeah some of it is right we do talk a lot but it’s very playful what you’re doing i don’t think people people catch the playfulness the from from this like there’s because i bet jesse can explain this to me and articulate it but there’s they they don’t see that piece at all it’s as if well i don’t even they’re not on people aren’t on the stage none of you know we’re we’re all in the same boat more or less except for maybe you and jesse but i think it’s it’s so oh and ethan i mustn’t forget my friend ethan no you mustn’t he really gets he really understands he’s unbelievable yeah he’s he’s so well the things he says and i don’t know where he comes i don’t know where he gets i don’t know where any of you get this from but but but the whole idea okay keep going so yeah suffering yeah i think so but what’s another word come on i don’t i’m the words can’t we just have another word guys come on marks description also happens in music you literally can have one person play the play the solo piano right and you’d be like that was very academic well done clap points of technique and you have someone plays it sort of off and it’s a bit you know it’s not traditional but it has feeling there’s emotion and then you know there’s kind of these two divided lines between left and right brain and what preferences you want like you know you have to do it completely as you know as if bark would play this or you’re like no this is my interpretation of the piece the pattern literally of the music so there’s there’s a sense that and right and there’s not like you can never perfectly reproduce a piece of music that’s just the people that it’s the same thing with ai like ai will always give you the same result it’s just it’s just bs it’s just completely bs nothing is reproducible like even the phenomenon of recording right i’ll make a recording i’ll send it to you right through the internet depending on which device you played on but if you hear on headphones you hear it from your speaker hear it from your laptop hear it through fancy speakers hear it out in public it that reproduction will always sound slightly different right which is what i was talking about in the beginning with this live stream right like that’s that’s true things are complex differently yeah for sure for sure i just yeah this whole idea of of of embodiment but and ritual but i jesse i don’t know it seems to me we are so maybe maybe you people aren’t but we’re so far removed from it that it feels almost it feels spooky you know but maybe you live in a world of artists uh we we actually live in world lacking in art lacking in artifice oh and craft i know but you personally i mean i suspect yes yes yes i you have that world around you you know i mean i can’t not i think you’re right though i think we i know i get i understand that i get that and i don’t think i don’t think people understand when mark says that when he says you know not you know it’s it how do you explain that that it’s not well is it a place how do you explain that there there’s a place and i don’t know i guess you have to be able to i guess you can’t explain it you have to you have to see it right you have to you have to see yeah you can pattern it for people but getting them to feel it tough very tough very tough because it is literally a spirit of play yeah literally a spirit of play and right and some people have not learned to play properly with others you you have you know and in all fairness if people have gone through the university system right they’ve been conditioned literally taught to embody a sense of academics as a preference set there’s a value set above play like you have these different sense of schooling you don’t need to go into all the different sense of schooling but even then there’s a there’s a value hierarchy or preference structure of how you learn and interact with others right and that’s why i say like you how do how do mark and i or all the other fabulous people here how do we get to our sense of uniqueness here is literally through suffering like there is no other way or struggle embody different things or yeah struggle it’s a challenge or questions it’s just um preoccupation rumination embodiment right yeah well it’s the attitudes like that that isn’t just like a an interesting you know way of looking at life it’s true you know less than a day that more and like it’s it’s true yeah well leithen says listen to early beithoven pianos and hadas and then late ones yeah well and i think i think it’s one of the other good things shoot i’m gonna put this on the discord server one of the other great things that verveke talks about even though i disagree with his terminology about serious play because he is trying to revive play for adults now the implication there though is that you didn’t play properly as a child could you so broken you have to do it again but and i think that’s right i think we have a bunch of children a bunch of 30 40 you know maybe even 50 year old children 20 year old children right we’ve got these they’re four years old right and they’re like ah and then they find they find one of these you know philosophers right they find kirkagore or they or they find um um heidegger right or they or they find hagel and like they’re so smart they’re four years old they’re literally making the same argument as a four-year-old and if you interacted with a four-year-old or a three-year-old you would know this because you’d hear that argument it’s really no more intelligent it’s it may have fancy longer multi-syllabic words but it’s no more intelligent yeah i guess i i actually disagree with you about the four-year-old i bet the four-year-old is is far above those those people seriously because because they’re so open there’s and so i think i don’t know i would compare them i don’t know to i don’t even know to what i was going to say rock but no um but you know what the thing about play there there’s a fun element to it as well it’s quite funny because when you engage in serious play well you’re all in this you’re all in the same stage right you’re on the same game so to speak so you you can get it you should be well more it depends but yeah i that’s my objection to the use of the term like i have to learn to cooperate right it’s very obvious when people don’t cooperate very you have to participate well that’s and then when you participate you have to participate in a generative fashion that’s true cooperation now you can say well i am participating by criticizing you that’s like really i mean that’s a type of participation but it’s a terrible type of participation and it makes you not a good person sorry doesn’t even i can’t even understand how it happens because look at you mark you look at you like look it’s not like it’s not like like you’re not giving a message even visually there’s a clear visual message here right it’s not clear elizabeth so what happened you probably didn’t see this and you probably shouldn’t watch it because it’s like i’m probably five plus hours of a ridiculous live stream so i’m sitting there i’m sitting on this live stream in the in the comments i came on later after jesse left and he’s saying like well this was this stream the one that i did last week that you know you were there and that was the other thing they were only talking about me i’m like it wasn’t i wasn’t the only one on the stream with richard guys i don’t know why you’re complaining about my behavior and not differentiating it from everybody else’s like that would at least be a valid a valid form of critique even if it’s not a valid critique and literally but hold on literally what he’s saying is well a just chatting stream should be and i’m like dude where did why did you think that was a just chatting stream it wasn’t it wasn’t called just chatting i gave you the rules for engagement in the stream and they aren’t the rules for just chatting well you know and he had to and he was fake he said he made that mistake three or four times manuel was pissed manuel was there saying no no you’re wrong because it was a lie it was just a lie it’s like how did you watch my stream and not realize it wasn’t a just chatting stream how would that even happen and yet you can see it happen and i’m like i don’t know how you do that like is your comprehension that low or were you actually not watching you know i mean i hope you weren’t watching you’re acting out of pure ignorance believing you saw something but you you didn’t take any of it in because maybe you were busy or doing something fair enough but but you were busy and you missed them and at that point when that’s pointed out to you three or four times maybe you should just stop trying to critique and say oh i’m ignorant of this maybe i shouldn’t be talking about can i can i can i suggest something here you can share a critique right because a critique is a definition it’s a point to signal that you’re pointing out but when you’re in the mood of criticism when you’re embodying that spirit of criticism it’s very hard to get out of that right you can i can share a critique with you define something but i can not convene the spirit or the embodiment of criticism when you’re in that that’s when you’re essentially in debate and that’s when it’s kind of you know friend enemy win lose etc etc yeah criticism is like okay i’m just just pointing something out it’s up to you whether you receive or want to receive the communications i’m giving you well but as soon as as soon as things then you can have a dialogue about the criticism well then that’s the as soon as you get part of the problem spirit of yeah great but that’s what i pointed out in the beginning of this monologue which i think is right to the point of embodiment i get good criticism from you jesse from you elizabeth from a bunch of people that no one sees because they’re not dumb enough to do it in public because that’s rude first of all just just to let you know like no you don’t criticize somebody in public it’s unacceptable now i’m not saying never but look if i go to you and i have a conversation with you in private and i critique you and you’re a jerk about it and you you know you don’t change then yeah maybe i’ll go public with it but you don’t go public first like nobody that’s just obnoxious it’s the it’s the whole problem with the world in which we find ourselves it’s like this bloody little microcosm happening here it’s it’s it’s insidious it’s literally the muppet crisis yeah for sure it is it’s the lack of common sense yeah common sense concordia concordia right like we don’t have we don’t have a common sense we can’t do sense making together because we need common sense which means we need to have something in common and we keep talking through criticism you can get that through critique how you do the critiquers right well but but also the more of this you’re doing the less embodied it is the reason why public criticism doesn’t work and private criticism does is because the two bodies are closer to one another even if it’s online even if it’s over to oh jesse could criticize me right now here in public on this forum where we have video and voice available okay in the live broadcast okay but any critique he actually gives me any sort of criticism he gives me in twitter on a private message is more embodied for sure for sure it’s more constrained and more contained even if it has less information because i can’t see him in twitter at least not yet and i don’t need to right it’s more pointed it’s better framed you know you want to go medium is the message whatever i don’t care but it’s actually important that it’s done in private because that is part of the intimacy crisis why are you publicly talking about somebody else’s stuff when you when you won’t do it in private why is that okay and i’m not saying never because there are there are times when that’s the appropriate thing to do but like why are you doing that like i criticize paul van der klei all the time and and i’m and i sometimes do it in public but but i don’t ever criticize him in public without having criticized him say directly in comments or an email and you wouldn’t know that by the way because you don’t see my emails to him and nor should you um first and so a lot of these critiques go you’re critiquing you know look and i’m having a conversation with my friend paul van der klei and we are friends exactly exactly they’re decontextualizing it because i saw when you were interacting with him last week you can tell there’s warm feelings you can tell your friends just the way you talk to each other there is playfulness even there oh yeah and you and you know because you saw us at thunder bay we shared a table but you were you can feel it next to each other i drove him to the paintball event you don’t wonder he loves my car i was like thank you i’m so happy somebody loves my car you know yeah it’s it’s you know we’re we have that kind of personal relationship even if i can’t hit him with a paintball four freaking times for some unknown reason take that as you will but it actually happened that i’m still angry about it i’m like i had him with a paintball i had him there’s that level of intimacy there in the relationship that’s why somebody said like oh yeah i enjoyed your randos conversation and i was like i’ve never had a randos conversation with paul i’ve never signed up for a randos slot and i never would because that is too impersonal for me and we we met more or less on the discord it’s not the first time i saw him it’s the first time and and that’s why i was able to skip the line or whatever you want to call it i’m not a rando i was never at any time a rando paul and i were always interacting in a way based on my comments which were to help him in his mission and you know i’ve had a lot of people say your comments on paul’s videos are scattered and you need time stamps and i’m like i don’t work for you and this isn’t for you you’re welcome to read them if you get something out of them great but i go do my comments on paul’s videos for paul because he he says he wants to be a rando because he he says he wants comments and i think i can give him good feedback and sometimes i seem to manage it and that’s the problem is that like that’s a level of intimacy because i know i’m talking on a public forum but i’m talking to paul i’m not talking to anybody else i know you want to understand it that’s fine but i’m not i’m not catering to you as the audience i’m catering paul as the audience because i think i know how to talk to him in a way to tell to him and sometimes i seem to manage it and and he’s very generous with his feedback and tells me when that’s the case which is what’s important because it’s easy to critique somebody if you never give them feedback right yeah well but it’s important i mean this is like and i was listening to peterson talking about freedom of speech oh with that that oh that greek man that it just came out what was his name oh i don’t have his name anyway he worked yeah yeah and and this is a freedom of speech issue actually you know because people are so so so thinking that constantly we need to monitor each other’s speech no we actually don’t we actually need to really open the windows to everybody else’s way of seeing things it’s so enriching just because i’m here doesn’t mean that i agree that you agree with me about everything right and that’s part of the fun of it oh no we have we have massive view viewpoints agreements you and i elizabeth and so i have massive disagreements with with jesse too and and sally joe and ethan and we all and that’s the beauty of it because we’re all bringing our own perspective in a positive way and we know that we’re doing that like we understand where each other’s boundaries are even if jesse thinks he’s going to cross my um goodwill hunting boundary and survive we understand where those boundaries are at least and that’s what gives it the level of intimacy that it has i do i do want to address this benjamin franklin it’s common sense good it’s required it doesn’t it’s not good or bad it’s required or is it really such a thing as bad as a crowd both two things can be true at the same time the same is for saying this william mark determinist not random well the opposite of randomness is not determinism but uh i do take your point and and i will i will i will agree us yeah i just i think the the other thing to hear probably is happening elizabeth is that there’s been this very significant lack of practical applications to ideas in the world people are not used to pragmatism right for sure for sure right because everything has to be from the mode of single identification naming single identification onto things right right right right oh hold on hold on look at this look at this this guy comes on my freaking stream on my live stream and he’s commenting in the comments how bold is this yes mark does have some incorrect traits music do you believe this is actually tastes you can’t type um you know and how am i able to take this i drove ethan to thunder bay from minneapolis airport we had hours and hours of conversation together right we have an intimate connection we have a level of intimacy that allows him to insult me pretty much any way he wants at this point and and because of the intimacy i know it’s in good fun well because i understand and can can take and integrate that critique and and look i mean i know my my taste in music or i mean we had we had a rousing argument um although i think i think totally wrong about whether or not iron maiden had real albums because some of their albums contained songs from other albums and he was like well those don’t count as albums and i’m like they’re called albums like you know and and it was it was fun and i think it was two and a half hours on and off of arguing this one point um and and and that’s okay but it’s only okay because of what came before and this concept of time and embodiment is really important uh-oh i’ve crossed the boundary now he’s angry um but it’s that intimate relationship right the you know and it and it’s important it’s like well you know you this person was hurt and i can tell because i was hurt yeah but they stayed after the live stream so how hard were they really like are you are you sure because it didn’t seem their actions didn’t say that so the fact that you felt that doesn’t mean they felt that well that’s the over compassionate mother i hate to tell everybody who was commenting but you’re being and and that’s you know i have i have trouble with peterson talking about it all the time but seriously that’s what this is this is this is a perfect example of the over compassionate mother and it’s it’s it’s not true it doesn’t it doesn’t fit there is no common sense to it as you were saying yeah for sure some guy made a comment i was commenting on peterson going on and on about the over compassionate mother so i had to put my little thing in i said something like yeah yeah dr peterson and someone someone nailed me on my comment and i was so thankful because i deserved it because i’ve been carrying on too much about it so what’s that say about me right come on yeah yeah and somebody had the insight to nail me it was it was brilliant i was so thankful like because people aren’t usually thought for intimate like they’re not we’re not intimate enough even on twitter in some strange way or in comments we’re not like that was an intimate comment a man made a very intimate comment back to me and it was so on the mark and that kind of thing is i mean i don’t know what that qual what you call that jesse like what it was a but it was like i my first reaction was what and then i thought you like it took me about 30 seconds i thought you hit the nail in the head with me you know me you know me you know i’m commenting the spirit of my comment had told them the whole message right and i needed correcting so that’s just going to keep me on the straight and narrow about my reaction right and that’s important yeah there is a way to engender intimacy in that in that way i was surprised like that was a gift this guy gave me a huge gift and i can’t even tell you i don’t even want to deny ethan and i met on the internet and then it’s like he’s like because i was like oh you know i’ll drive you i’ll pick you up the airport because i’m going to be at sally’s and i gotta go through you know it wasn’t the quickest way to go to stop at the freaking minneapolis airport and pick up and he was like really i’m like yeah absolutely that would be great and he couldn’t believe it at first he was like you’re really gonna stop at the airport and give me a ride i’m like i have so freaking literally and and he was kind of like you’re gonna figure out what time i get there and be there waiting for me and i’m like yes wow right because i’m like i don’t care about my schedule and look we were we were i would have honestly preferred to get there before everybody else but i couldn’t do that and i was willing to give that up to to to spend the time talking to ethan and meeting with ethan and like it was way worth it to and boy it was way more worth it than i could have imagined right yeah for sure before it even happened a bunch of stuff i’ve told the story before but you know before it even happened i went to minneapolis early i had this wonderful experience because i had an insight the night before about something i had missed with sally’s books and i was like oh and i got all that done and then i discovered this magical man-made lake in the middle of the city and i was like wow this is amazing and then i go to the airport and i meet somebody at the post office and she sees the books and she’s amazed then i pick up ethan and we’re driving down the road and he’s teaching me all this stuff about music and you know it’s it was you know it was just a magical experience and and like the thing was too i mean i’ve been online you know most of my life so i’ve got the sense i’m like no no ethan is ethan all the time in some significant right but he’s ethan all the time like the way he presents online is the way he presents and that’s the end of that and i knew that yeah raw experience right i knew that raw experience and it was so wonderful yeah indeed but these are like pilgrimages i think these you know i think thunder bay is like a was like a pilgrimage and then you know yes and that’s the thing i made this comment i want to burn powers tweets recently i said oh problem is that that entertainment is a modern attempt at making a pilgrimage without having that that aspect to it and look he’s having the appointment bumper to bumper cars and the passenger pick up and he was right there on the curb as soon as i walked out of the terminal i was all the way against the curb there were three three rows of cars deep and i was like nah this isn’t gonna do this is ethan man i gotta get all the way up on the curb and make sure that we’re ready for that wow that’s friendship but yeah what what did burn did did burn powers interview you jesse yeah yeah well we had a talk we had a talk we had a talk i i i i i have a lot of time love and um affection for burn i i hope to talk to him again i have some i have some observations from our talk together um that’d be i’d be happy to share with you for me i find it more uh i guess um the best way to get to know each other is to really sit sit and ruminate on something if you go between things too much especially when you first meet it’s hard like you’re almost trying to associate and identify with someone with too many things you need to build a strong sense of connection on one thing since we all work these things we all value these things depending on how you we have these shared ideals and then you if you can find out the differences and contrasts so um i yeah in particularly in that talk i would have liked for just to be in about christian music even though it would be a brutal topic for me because it’s such a such a um burden i carry having haven’t done that you know yeah even i was talking about but yeah it’s um it would be because that’s you know it’s because at least then it is that shared sense of um even if it was difficult for me or was difficult for him it is that shared sense of camaraderie around something that’s like it like like these streams it’s a solid it’s a solid foundation um body so it’s a body yeah so that’s yeah so i’m hoping to do that build a body around a common spirit like that and that was the most common spirit you know you knew something and you knew a lot about it no that’s an interesting statement you just made mark you said you can build a body man here we’re going like talking about embodiment you can build a body did we all hear this yeah wow yeah what do you think the live stream is it’s just part it’s one part of the larger body of the wisdom community work that we’re doing but but once again like to jesse’s point you you have a topic right like there’s it’s it’s really clear the frame is pretty clear you know right and and and and nicely yeah but nicely drawn and colored and everything for half an hour right it’s not i know i noticed noticed too right that the spirit of say camaraderie or whatever requires a sacrifice so there i am sacrificing trip time arrival time all kinds of things to make sure that i pick up ethan when he lands not when it’s convenient for mark because what’s convenient for mark is the most efficient expedient thing because that’s i am so ruthless i was just like no i want to get there well i got to south dakota in two days from south carolina i’m gonna look at that on a map that’s two 12 hour days man and maybe i shouldn’t even have done that but but i did it and i’m perfectly happy that i did i’m totally thrilled i did in two days instead of three should i have done it in three almost certainly i should not have done that in two days but i did and i enjoyed every minute of it and i’ve got the car right car for it and everything but i doing a bunch of sacrificing which you know look these minor sacrifices as it turns out well i want to be early i have to check out of the damn hotel but he’s not actually going to be there until late and then because he doesn’t land until later we’re going to be you know in my mind we’re not i’m not going to be first to the stupid thunder bay thing right and it’s like oh okay but but all this beautiful miracle actual miracle like i’m using that term in the biblical sense happens as a result and then there’s a further miracle and all the stuff that like like the amount of experiential information that ethan gave to me in that car on that drive i can’t explain it in words like it was amazing he’s like oh we’re gonna listen to this piece now listen to this in this piece of classical music and then you can hear this and here’s what’s going on we’ll say in the artistic time frame we’ll say which i’m learning more about right because sally i did that i did a talk on sally joe’s channel by the way which is great um we should do another one sally we will right um and so i’m learning more about how art precedes all the stuff that happens right how it moves the body how it how it it shows the spirit before the spirit gets embodied right and then it’s like oh okay that’s that’s so interesting right but i learned all this stuff in that car ride and i learned a bunch of other stuff too but like that music lesson was amazing and you know we’re driving through deluxe and we’re you know we’re driving through these different places and and i’m hearing this music and this you know he’s like listen to this frantic sound it’s like oh okay it’s like the hurriedness right into this and out of that and it’s like oh okay and it you know it all makes this this this stuff because i’m a patterned person right just pops i’m like oh okay that makes this make sense that makes sense and all that right everywhere burn power right you know most of it honestly i love burn but wow man did he go to the clip the music clips are way too long right like i’m like oh this is just could be so much more compressed but when he talks about the where rap came from and then he talks about break dancing and he just slides right by it but for me i’m like whoa hold on that’s world changing that’s like wait a minute what you’re saying is dancing went from a cooperative thing yeah and it’s this thing and i was just like whoa and it’s right there and i’m just like wow break dancing is like and it’s and it comes out of the same ethos as rap and rap comes from literally a stolen truck of audio equipment professional audio equipment and then it just continues that ethos and it’s from the bahamas right are mixed up with this it continues that ethos of piracy actual piracy of the music and burn just slides past this he just kind of points it out and he keeps going with the series and there’s nothing wrong i’m not i’m not throwing shade on burn i love burn but i’m just like holy crap man no no stop stop cut it out talk about that like that’s that’s huge that like rippled out right but i can see that because i’m a sailor like i know how to sail literally so it’s like oh no i see the waves that that caused i see that there’s also another insinuation to what happens after break dancing is dancing becomes clubbing so what once cooperative now becomes aggressive by by language right and then you’re the environment that this dancing is no longer um community of it is um propositional or it has a mode of exchange that is required it’s like you’re here in this place it’s not propositional well this is wow look when vervecky says opponent processing when vervecky says opponent processing he’s looking at the world seeing opponent processing that’s not wrong i’m talking about murders behavior change right but he’s trying to put a positive spin on it i say well look opponent processing and we need that right but that’s not correct we want cooperative processing that’s generative because opponent processing is just critiquing criticism i know boroughs trying i’ll have to say it explicitly when people go clubbing now the intentionality behind that is the exchange of bodily warmth right it’s the people they’re proposing like they’re proposizing themselves onto others and it’s this aggressive tendency it’s no longer cumulative like i’ll get to know you we’ll do the cordial dance you’ll spin around we’ll exchange some words maybe if we you get i get introduced to you again like all the all the jay nalston works like always have a dancing if you not notice that pattern then you miss something but all the jay nalston everything always ends up with some sort of dancing and that’s where things get worked out so but now with the clubbing environment it’s like no things have already been worked out but now it’s just on who gets to propose to who really like right yeah that would be a great live stream like like that would be great to talk about dancing i was that’s so strange because i was thinking about today i was thinking of those folk dances that the communities did generate you know generation after generation right and wow but like talk about embodiment like but the idea the idea the difference between a cooperative dance a folk dance and an opponent dance where it’s no longer about cooperation it’s actually about opposition or showing off or being independent and individualistic that’s huge i just i just want to read some of these comments before we shut the stream down because it is it is getting uh long in the teeth here for sure and and yeah we’ve kind of reached the edge of embodiment but then benjamin franklin on the subject of building bodies notice that evolution kind of directs no it doesn’t us to build a body for our offspring no through certain pleasures and certain pains no all bad framing including the pleasure of adventure no the pleasure when you’re talking about adventure you’re talking about the spirit of exploration no ethan did not watch that video yet subtle bodies no i didn’t watch any videos today because i was working i will watch that though it’s not a patreon video but but an actual like public one but i don’t remember seeing it but i was busy all day today we were trying to wrap it up i i needed to watch some pleasure oh the episteme olgy though of adventure is though the progression towards a home so yes to think about well or or the expansion of the home or bringing something back to the home yeah there’s three at least ways to think about it benjamin franklin there is a kind of creative distraction embedded in the adventure of creating oswag dude like you’re such a materialist it’s just like it’s hard to even understand how you function in the world honestly we are cyclical creatures not continuous no we are continuous that’s cyclical is continuously uh yeah i i don’t there is a destructive quality to us no no there’s no destructive quality to us that’s that’s not there uh there’s the kind of instruction to make clear for new creation no no you’re just confused about how the world will do no make way for maybe i’m projecting so you’re definitely projecting your crazy materialism onto everything you’re saying it’s 100 i can just tell you that wraps up my head he’s in park half yes hayden is credited with the invention of serzo which literally means joke it was a joke because he took the minuet i remember the way i learned that in in high school i talked about that before and sped it up to the point where you couldn’t dance to it wow yes i remember you talking about this this was around the time of no way yes yes well and i learned the minuet in high school i was in a magnet school in lowell massachusetts where i did most of my schooling and um or most of most of my early growing up we’ll say and um yeah we learned that and it was very you dance with the you hold the hand and you do do do and then you do yeah and i don’t remember it all now yeah that was where i got um that was where i got that was the the blue-eyed blonde the first blue-eyed blonde that i just kind of fell in love with yeah me and blue-eyed blonde i forget it you’re a blue-eyed blonde despite what you think if you just say stuff i’ll just do it i’m completely freaking powerless it’s i’m done completely finished yeah disembodiment there we go so yeah i think that’s a good note to close on yeah thank you elizabeth thank you herb thank you jesse that was so much fun i’m glad you’re blonde come on oh where is this going next week i’ve talked about it before elizabeth great to see you thank you everybody for joining the live stream we’re going to do something next week i’m not sure what the topic’s going to be we have a list but we may not go in order thank you everybody lovely to see you come back again next week we’re gonna end