Truth - Embodying the Logos - Ahmad (VskbsNseM_Q)

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Hello everybody Welcome on another episode of embodying the logos today I’m here with Ahmed We’re here to talk about one of these easy subjects which is called truth like why not Right like that would be nice if we could be truthful And we need to know what that means obviously Yeah, so we’re gonna do Embodying the logos around this idea of truth and We will try to embody that while we’re doing that So we can relate to that at multiple levels so on that What is your definition of truth? Thank you, Manuel. First of all for me truth is definitely I wish I wish truth is as simple as you You find it to be and I hope I hope to find it as simple as you do find it by the end of the conversation so truth For me there’s two levels to truth So there’s the superficial level which is the truth as correspondence That that the sentence you say or the fact that you know about Somehow maps to an actual reality which happened out there and which can be described by that sentence Or there’s the deeper The deeper definition of truth, which is essentially It’s essentially that which gathers the facts together And actually makes the statements about them possible so it’s kind of the logos behind the facts That’s what truth is for me. So to put it in a very concrete example Let’s say i’m writing an article There’s the premise behind the article which is intangible. It’s the intelligible. It’s the intelligible aspect of the article Which you get to by reading the article In order to write a good article you need to start there you need to Get a good idea of what is the idea that is being communicated through you What is the gestalt that is not reducible to the words and you need to have a very strong foundation of a strong connection to that place And only then can you start really transferring it loyally towards Did that make sense or should I clarify it more Well, no, it makes perfect sense. I don’t know if i’m in agreement, right? So First of all, we’ve actually talked about correspondence theory of truth Like Doesn’t work, right because The words don’t have meaning Right, so the words cannot correspond to reality Because they they need embodiment as a medium to Gain the correspondence, right? So yeah, what what the words are doing is there’s signs, right? They’re signifiers that appeal to specific understanding within you That that you can resonate with with Reality, hopefully right like that’s that’s the ideal and then when You go to this higher level of truth, right I I immediately was thinking about fractals right Like is it is it a higher level or are we just like? because it’s bigger than you Your understanding of it is as if it’s a higher level, but it’s just literally the same process Right, that’s a that’s an open question But i’m i’m just gonna go in with the skepticism that there’s two things there like I just Well first first of I I Definitely agree with me. Maybe I miscommunicated when I said correspondence. I I I meant Maybe it’s closer to what you said that the words mean the words themselves clearly they have no meaning there. They’re just Conventions that we use among each other But they’re gateways and they’re like placeholders They’re basically placeholders for that logos for that But but but they don’t have authority right like that that’s the problem right so so when you’re when you’re writing right You’re trying to appeal to some something in someone else, but you can’t right like that That’s the problem Right and and so so Well when when I try to design practices or whatever right I I use words like integration right and then every Everybody’s like yes. Yes. Yes, right and actually i’m gonna do a stream with mark about agreement Right because because they’re agreeing with you But they they don’t they don’t even have the capacity to do that They don’t even have the capacity to understand what integration means, right? Right, right, right, right. And so how can you agree when you don’t know? Very good. Very very good. Love that question Yes How can you agree when you don’t know? I think That that’s a pattern I see in myself that I have a tendency sometime to agree without asking the clarification questions Like what do you mean by integration at least at least that would be the next step for it Then yeah, but even if I explain it to you, right you might you might just be unable to understand what I say Because you don’t have the experience you don’t you don’t have the embodied resonance to absolutely appeal to So if both people have it, then it should be somewhat possible. Don’t you think? Well, okay So now we’re we’re gonna talk about well, what do you want? Right? Like what do you want when you’re communicating with people? Right. Okay So so when when I communicate with you and and I say integration I I effectively want you to attempt in a certain way. Yeah, right And I cannot know what that is for you Right, like I don’t know the way that you need to attempt because I don’t know what you’re lacking and what what you can use And so so you you need to find your own way Yeah, right so In in a sense It’s important to leave it at the abstraction so that I don’t fill in the details for you Right, so we So you don’t impose it on me you mean Well, I I can’t right but but But you can impose something wrong upon yourself. All right Okay, and and I can misguide you yeah Okay, so so like it’s it’s it’s a misguiding that I do not not an imposition Okay um, but but there was there was this uh This this amazing line in play though we did a book club yesterday and the line was My opinion is in agreement with yours And so we were like, okay, let’s do a little exploration about this and it’s like if Even if i’m looking from the left side All right up onto the mount and what i’m seeing Is different than when you’re looking from the right side of the mount, right? But since we’re looking up At the same thing We can still see the opposite Right, so we can have agreement in the going up Up Okay Okay, right. Okay, even even though I don’t see what you’re seeing Right, right. Right. So we both agree that we’re looking at something Right and that That is up And that there’s a way to move towards it that is united Even though we’re at different places that is united But that’s the point that that’s the point that at some point we are united in that sense Right, so there is something in common even though we have different ways of both expressing it experiencing it and going going towards it Right. Yes. So so so this is why I was like, okay, like What are we doing here? Right? Because there’s a level right? Upon which we have agreement or or upon which Something is true for both of us Uh-huh But there’s a different level in which it’s not right? So now we have to look at What level of reality are we engaging from and we need to be careful that we Right, if we’re looking at the fractal, we don’t go a level up or or we go a level down Because then our union Might no longer be true. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but how do we go about that? That’s the question Why do we want? Because we want to make sure we’re talking about the same thing and not having two different no No No, okay like like this because this is What what where telos is important, right? Yeah So when we’re communicating We’re trying to do something functional Yes, right. Yes. So so when i’m communicating to you I try to Find what is useful to you? right, so i’m i’m trying to condescend or Raise myself depending on where i’m at, right? to be with you And and then we we can So you’re searching for common ground Right, but but but yes, but There’s there’s a framing right like there’s always a context which makes things relevant Yeah, right. So so that’s kind of where the common ground is and then the conclusion that we’re having right or or or what we’re going to do is following from that right like it’s it’s like you were saying with with with uh That which gathers All the facts together, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. So so if if I get you correctly We want to make sure we’re being gathered by the same thing Yeah, we’re following the same spirit same logos. We’re following the same logos basically that’s Or this yeah, we’re following the same spirit. That’s right. We’re hoping that is in accordance with the logos We hope it’s okay Maybe I don’t know what the logo I think i’m using john’s definition of the logos Because i’m talking about the logos. Yeah. Yeah, but but this is this is the problem right because I I use being as good as as a starting point, right? Right. So the logos is that which Birds being or something right it’s it’s it’s it’s the the the Structure the the mat mat matrix in in which the scaffold? Whilst it’s it’s the soil As as well as as the gravity and the something both at the same time. It is both at the same time But it has the simultaneous At least this is from the propositions. I know about it I don’t I can’t speak so much about the reality of it, but at least from the propositions I know about it. It’s both It’s both the being and the intelligibility at the same time, right? I don’t I don’t think it’s the being it’s it’s it’s the source of being right. The logos is the source of being okay Like that’s why I call it matrix right like it’s the it’s the mother right like The womb. Yeah, the womb exactly right in which being is being birthed. That’s right. Right, right Okay and so okay, yeah, that’s a Completely changes the way I think about so because logos is no longer no longer has to do with the forms anymore Because I know it does it does okay, yeah, like like the the forms are the constraints that That guide to birthing right like Yes, okay And I think I think the only problem i’m having so okay, so logos is basically like this command to be or this Yeah, it’s the spoken right like it’s Reality being spoken into existence. Yes, right logos is reality being spoken into existence and the effect of this is being happening it’s it’s and this command Is what brings forth me I think I’m I’m I don’t think I’m there with you on this one I I’m not that I disagree. I just I’m just I I don’t know if I Completely get what you’re talking about when you mean, but but I’m interested Like I don’t I don’t I don’t even think that that you need but Like is there a quality that you’re missing down because maybe we should like talk about that Like where where’s the disagreement instead of whether you know, there’s no disagreement. It’s not that there’s a disagreement. It’s more like I’m trying to because My i’m running against a wall When i’m asking myself, okay So there’s a creation from nothing nothing clearly there’s being comes out of nothing out of nowhere there is no The way i’m seeing it when you speak that the metaphors are coming to my mind is that there is a I want to I don’t want to call it a force, but it’s it’s a vacuum It is a vacuum. It is right. It’s it’s it’s pulling things in it’s not Not an imposition of force it’s it’s pulling things out into being like like like like and the truth is there’s this song about Rivers of living waters flowing from our valleys, right? So what what does the river flow into? Well, it flows into a riverbed And the riverbed is holds the waters and it shapes it right And they’re living waters, right So so they if if you if your waters get shaped in the right way They produce life. Yes, and so that’s that’s where like there’s also a way that they don’t Right, you can also produce that waters Yeah, you can okay. So so this is this is where i’m objecting against the way that that you’re framing The logos because I don’t I don’t I don’t think you have to participate with the logos like like there’s other things that you can participate with Because in that sense logos is something very absolute and very far away because it’s the deepest level of existence then But what you can participate in it’s the source of life. It’s the source of life. Yeah, it’s the source I I with that i’m on the same page right and that that connects it back to being right? Because being Is living right because because it’s like and this goes into a word that that’s been popping up is generative Right. Yeah. Yeah generous or something like that Well generative like so it has the capacity to Sustain and build yeah Right. Yeah, and and there’s only a limited set like Right, like this is the asymmetry in the universe Like there’s only a limited set of actions about all the potential actions that you can do that fits that category Right so so Now we’re going back to truth, right so so There’s a local truth, right which which you can say i’ve I’ve already established That the frame that we’re in is a living frame, right And now how can I be true right in accordance with reality within that frame? right, so this is closed world system, right like this is what where propositions of procedures shine And then you have you have the opening up right so like I as a person have to be true But if if i’m if i’m to be true as a person I have to relate to what is Bigger or higher than me And I can’t I can’t do that with a closed Yeah system. Yes, but there’s a different relationship Yeah, that that needs to be opening. Yeah And submitted right like like it like and and so And that requires a surrender, right? So now you You have to say well, there’s an authority right that which creates the story Yeah, the author In which i’m participating Yeah, and if I follow the author Then I will be living in the right story Remember what I was saying in the beginning? It’s this intelligible aspect of The article that gathers together the words to begin with this is what I meant exactly what you’re saying that you’re You’re entering into this field that so to say this field where I mean you can enter into so the way I do it for example, sometimes I imagine a scenario That fits into what i’m trying to say and then the same scenario sort of gathers a life life of its own because somehow I Have this experience of what this is like and what this does and how these gathers things together and suddenly i’m connected with it again this place This all-at-once understanding of what i’m trying to say And then the writing comes very naturally after that Okay, so that’s interesting so yeah because because that’s not obvious to me like like I Like why would why would the writing come natural? After after that because well, it’s not always after that sometimes you need to start writing to owner together to begin with Good but but do you see the problem that i’m trying to point out like I don’t I don’t see Like I I get that that You’re seeing the whole right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but but seeing the whole doesn’t tell you how to communicate the whole like Let me okay, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. That’s a very good question. Excellent question Yeah, seeing the whole doesn’t tell you anything about how to communicate the whole it’s true. It’s very very true What happens there so so Absolutely, absolutely, yes, yes So what happens is that I connect it with propositions That I know Remind me of the whole they have this symbolic relationship with the whole I know these propositions and I use these propositions as placeholders. So now I have my placeholders And then You can start Connecting the placeholders together and putting more stuff around them that it fits to that Which the placeholders point to So now In some sense you’re building a scaffolding Around the whole but the problem with that is that not around the whole i’m around building it around myself So that I remain connected with the whole so I remain in conformity to the whole so I put the pieces in place So to speak so to speak I put my pieces in place so that I can catch wind more easily Okay, so so now you’re basically saying like i’m an athena Yes, that is attuned to have a certain resonance Yes, and in order to maintain that resonance I I need to be Conforming to certain guiding principles. Yes Okay And you have to have faith in it that it’s gonna come Right That kind of sounds like invoking actually It there is invoking in it, yes, I would say there is invoking in it I would definitely say there’s an invocation there. I’m definitely invoking the whole by by doing that It’s a bit like a I mean this is this happens in in in very rare moments Usually what you need to do what I need to do at least It’s this combination of just you start writing Like you you start writing just intuitively whatever comes to mind, but you keep Your head directed that this is what i’m trying to express and I need to stay stay Sensitive like okay, is this going in the right direction? Am I am I getting distracted or is this the idea that i’m looking for it usually has a certain flavor? Like you need to have the sensitivity to what the the whole tastes like that you’re trying to communicate And then once you realize okay now my words are conforming to the whole Now i’m in this place where the writing is the conformity to the whole at the same time Speaking very abstractly right now, but then Then that’s when the writing catches fire But it’s a rare thing and it’s very exhausting to get there if you try too hard because if you try too hard It kills you but uh In in these rare moments when it actually works That whole which is instructing how i’m writing And where it’s coming naturally That’s what i’m referring to as truth Well, I well so Yeah to go back to truth, right? Like so I I like the antenna metaphor, right? Because that’s being true, right? Your Yeah, you’re attuned to the right reality In a sense, right? Yeah, you’re you’re You’re cheating a couple steps, right? Because Because there’s the gestalt right And then there’s how you receive the gestalt and then there’s A way that that you’re trying to distill that into words And that’s just you talking to yourself at that point, right? And now you need to still present that to Yes, I am talking to myself absolutely I am basically listening and writing down the closest possible Writing down the words that most conform to whatever I am receiving But yeah, but what what if every step right and maybe I even skip the step right but what if every step has A way of being true in it And so In in in order to get the writing on paper, right? You need you need to have the whole stack In in alignment and like maybe yes. Yes That is also Has its own truth Like the Discuss as a true. I see I see I see what he’s trying to say here. Yeah, that’s Yeah, maybe there’s some self-deception here involved in telling myself that i’ve actually figured out some way Because it I mean obviously it doesn’t always quote unquote work And Yes Yes, that has its own truth, yeah That has its own truth when the planets align that’s its own truth its own conformity to something bigger right um So now we can get Well into my problems with writing because And not not only with writing right but like i’ve been trying to get things for this little corner and and then the criticism is Like why don’t you have the thing and then we can say yes or no And i’m like it doesn’t work that way Because like I can’t make a thing and then slot you in it right like like You’re not an npc Like I can just give you whatever right like like the your place Has to be yours Like it has to be built around you because else It doesn’t function right like you can say well, I can make an abstract version Right, which which is basically what a factory worker is right? Like you you say well There’s this this couple of procedures right and like I can just take Whoever I want and I can put them in there and I can spend two days talking to them and then they They do the thing, right? but When we’re talking about the spirit, right or the prasonic forms or whatever that’s That’s not a real thing like that cannot exist Um, you need to let it be You need to give it the space to be itself Right and and and and then there’s the Yeah, that well, I think I think this is what playdo calls the dialectic right is you There’s a process right in in which You let it generate or something, right? And you need to have a certain attunement to that right so The dialectic or the capacity for dialectic is the capacity to have that attunement. Yes and to Teach someone that attunement like I don’t like playdo even suggest that it isn’t impossible like You can’t write it down there’s no method behind it that’s why he says No, no, no, he says it’s he’s he’s basically stating it’s impossible like it goes further than that right He’s effectively saying well, you need to have the right nature. Like if you don’t have the right nature, then it’s like bye. Bye like it’s Like it’s not gonna happen Like he’s he’s really fatalistic I I like I I don’t know like i’m i’m a little bit more optimistic but like There is a a sense of faith in there definitely right? Yeah, like there’s people that never are gonna make the cut right like that’s just Yeah, that’s the reality. It’s like how yeah. Yeah. Yeah, how many people do make the cut right and then well we can we can go into well, if we present all of these people with the potential of getting in and Like that’s not their calling What are we doing to these people right like that part comes in it needs to be from the person’s freedom Like they have to be the ones to make the entry in and they have to want it and if they don’t want it Then you cannot force them because otherwise it is not being it’s just manipulation Right. Yeah Well, yeah, but then what is that they want right? Right because Plato goes into this as well like oh like all of these sophists like they they want to be philosophers But but they don’t want to be philosophers, right? Like they don’t want to be a true philosopher But they they want to play the game of philosophy Yeah, they’re they’re looking for truth at the propositional level not at the higher levels Well, like the way that he frames it it’s it’s at what can be seen Right So there’s there’s a level and this is where science operates, right? It’s like the level of feedback, right? Yes, and if I have And and that’s where you get expertise. Yeah, but you don’t get wisdom there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so So going going back to truth like maybe you you want to reframe the truth In here a little bit. Okay reframe the truth in here a little bit. Wow, that’s Give me a second to go back to what we just talked about Ah, hmm Yes, okay, so Yes I’m just gonna talk because finding something that’s Like the first sentence that just came to me out of nowhere truth is the authority of reality truth is Conforming to the authority Well, that is you following truth conforming Okay Okay That’s how you want to put it. So I I don’t I don’t think there is a authority of reality. Okay? Okay Like that you think there’s an authority of reality. Okay, I because because that’s Presupposing a frame Yes, okay, presupposing a frame. So imposing something on it Okay, you’re really challenging me here. I like that I like that. Okay So Well, like like let me let me just reframe it like maybe there there is an implicit authority of reality, but it’s Inaccessible to us. So okay like it’s it’s it’s not a proper framing because like it’s inaccessible, right? It’s a bit because my mind is still thinking about what I just wanted to say i’m sorry, uh, let me just get it out and then So to connect it to the framing truth is that which frames Is that which makes the framing possible to begin with it is that which needs no defense Because it frames you before you frame it Okay Isn’t that goodness Well, I mean goodness and truth they’re related no Yes, well, but maybe that’s the relationship like that goodness frames the truth That goodness frames the truth. So you’re saying that goodness is a level higher than truth in this case I I i i i i Well, yes like ethics before Ontology or epistemology ethics before epistemology. Yeah or or ontology like Like Yes Like the only way to make sense Right is by valuing something Right right by lifting something up right right and the lifting what you’re lifting up Is that which generates the truth? Okay, because that that that is forming your participation Right, so that’s that’s that’s the organizing principle of In which truth exists? Yes, because if you want the the only way to frame anything to begin with is to have value to care right Right to care if you don’t care, you’re not gonna frame And that’s why goodness comes first and then truth comes second Well, it’s not second second. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s no like it’s it’s instantly right like yeah They’re one They’re one And then beauty beauty follows from that too Right. Yeah This this is yeah, I haven’t explored this thinking too much right but but but the beauty Is how the world organizes it within those two things, right? So so you have the goodness right which which is basically the light that shines right and then the truth Is Revelation within the shining right or is the process by which the revelation occurs, right? Because because that’s the resonance right And then and then the beauty Is the way? to understand what you’re seeing effectively right because If like how do you how do you know what is revealed? Like what that is, right? Apart from whether it’s correct or not, right? Like like it needs to fit in right? And I think I think the beauty is is is related to the fittedness, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah There’s a confirmation to I don’t know what it’s conforming to But yeah, yeah, there’s a confirmation but there’s an element beyond that that it’s not just conforming because Then then everything is beautiful because well everything is beautiful, of course But has the capacity for beauty Right, that’s depending on what you value again Doesn’t beauty has a guiding have a guiding aspect to it in the sense that beauty can also guide you to the goodness It’s not just beauty guides you to Expression or participation. Yes, right and participation is that by which Revelation occurs, right because it provides contrast and and revelation, right So that’s that’s that’s the integration of time in there Let me just because you said one thing that really blew my mind in a good way that goodness is the light Valuing is the light and now i’m kind of seeing valuing and ethics in totally different way Because it’s very true that it is the valuing is the light by which you see Then truth is the first the framing that comes out of that light And let me internalize this first let me internalize this So when I love a child when I love my child I don’t have a child but but theoretically when i’m Have a god play towards my child That is light You Not light he wouldn’t say so Well, that’s beautiful I That’s hopefully true Right. Okay, uh and that’s participating in the good, right? Yeah, and then inheriting from the good light shines through you like yes, like okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, so Agape exactly absolutely agape is when the light of the good shines through you towards the child Yes truth and and and right like Not only that right? Like I think this is also the component of reception Right. So there’s the seed in the child That the light shines upon like I think that connection needs to be made else. It’s a perversion Okay Because then it’s violence then it’s okay So but but what what does the seed so so the reception is? Why why why did you make that point? What’s important about that point? Well that because because that’s but that’s part of being true, I guess right Because the reception is yeah, like if you’re shining a light like I can I can just take take A big stage light and shine it in your face, right? I can say look dude This is this is the brightest light you’ll ever see like I have a friend who does that. Yeah And I was like well what am I supposed to do with this? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know what you mean. No, okay It’s almost like this shining it Shining it’s And this is forbidden knowledge effectively, right? Like if you if you if you shine the light upon a seed that isn’t ready or whatever or like like a really small plan like you you you might Burn it block block it out, right? Yeah like but but you you you might traumatize it in such a way that that it will grow away from the light and that Yeah, you can never go go back to it. I’ve personally experienced this I personally experienced this I mean, I mean personally experienced this in religious people Basically Shocking me With a lot of values which I absorbed and it was too much I think this is what you’re talking about So I feel like like it doesn’t really matter what you do with it, right? But but but the problem is that there can like you get presented with something right? And if if if you if you don’t have the grounding right like you don’t have fertile ground within you Yeah, yeah, yeah, you fall apart to integrate that right now We go back to one of these words that I use when like if you hand on another capacity for integration Damn like you you’re not gonna receive what is being sent and not we can we can bind that back to you writing Whatever you’re writing on paper, right? Yeah, like that’s the problem right like You’re shining a light but like people aren’t able to receive the light for various reasons, right? One is because they’re not Standing where you stand But the other one is because they can’t So that’s when I publish what I write you mean, or is it one just well If you’re trying to give it to an audience, right like any audience Yeah Okay Yes, okay Let me just try to make sure that i’m That we’re on the same page I want to use a concrete example just to make sure that this is what you’re talking about so For example for me when I when i’m Just sitting there and I suddenly realize okay What is this? This is beautiful this this this being this this capacity to exist to experience to see It’s something so valuable that I cannot ever Begin coming to conformity with it and then I look around my room and I see the mess in my room And I look at the mess in my life and look at the mess in my heart and look on my lesson everywhere else Start getting overwhelming and demotivating Would you say this comes close to what you were referring to with the light burning the plant away? Uh Yes, actually so so there’s a couple things that I want to um pack right so Uh, you’re connecting valuable with beautiful Yes Um, like I don’t I don’t think that Beautiful things are valuable Okay Like they’re valued, right? But but this like in the eastern orthodox tradition, right like if you got this revelation or thing you’re supposed to let it go Right, like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You’re not supposed and and when I hear something valuable Like like I hear maybe this is me right but like it’s it’s it’s treasured, right? like it’s Uh, you want to capture it you want to have it you want to have it? Right. That’s what I hear when I yes You heard correctly actually you actually heard quite correctly actually quite correctly And yeah, and and then right You say something strange right like I cannot comment to conformity, right so That’s that says a couple things to me is like, okay like There’s many beauties, right? Like there’s not just this one beauty. So why are you conforming to this beauty? right, like is this just because like Like you you get the sense that it’s in your grasp or like like what what privilege is this beauty over all the other beauties? It’s not the privilege of this beauty over other beauties. It is the reminder that there is beauty And that I don’t deserve it That I don’t deserve what I am right now that I am too okay, but like So what Well, no there isn’t Because there is a sense of duty towards it And if I don’t honor that sense of duty Then what kind of a piece of shit? You have a sense of duty towards the beauty Not towards the beauty towards whatever gave me this towards towards just the fact that you exist. That’s just the fact that you are It is worth honoring. It is worth acting in accordance with with This amazing thing Yeah, now i’m speaking with maybe i’m not so clear in my thoughts of what I mean I think okay. Let me let me just be completely open. I start relating it to god, of course But but it’s a very abstract relationship. So it’s like, okay You exist you are you’re conscious This is fragile i’m just gonna talk right now this is fragile this is valuable This is a gift You need to be clean for it What else is there there’s so much that you need to be doing that you aren’t doing You’re ungrateful for it What else is there There’s also this drive And I don’t know why it’s there maybe it’s it’s programmed since I was a child to I guess I have this attitude towards The people I like for example that the people I like that. Okay, I like this person I need to please them. I need to make them happy. I need to do this. I need to do that And so I see that I am in this great position And I want to give back Does that make sense now? I see this gift and I want to give back and I actually it’s not that I want to give back It’s more so that I feel I should give back Okay Yeah, that’s okay so Yeah, i’m i’m i’m wondering how to approach this right so so first of all Is Is this in the experience or in a reflection? No, it’s in the reflection. Okay. It’s a good question actually very good question If I weren’t reflecting I don’t think I would have this thought Okay, so What’s happening in the experience I Oh wow, very very good question I’m free one thing i’m free I’m free from yesterday. I’m free from tomorrow So It’s it feels like i’m in the right place It doesn’t matter if I want it or I don’t want it It’s it’s just correct This is already good enough. It’s not correct. Not correct. It’s good enough. I would say That this is good enough In a certain sense If in fact even more than good enough You’re fulfilled Fulfillment yeah, there’s a sense of fulfillment. Yes, there’s a sense of fulfillment, but also there’s a block that somehow The reflection collapses in and I can’t go deeper, okay That’s it Okay, so that’s the lack of surrender the lack of what surrender Yes, a lack of surrender which which I somehow see as protecting myself from Falling apart from forgetting my responsibilities Well, you know, but yeah, like you you would fall apart Yes, like like that that that is literally what surrender would mean, right? so Like that’s correct Like that that’s you dying, right and then like If you choose to go that way you have to wait that you’re gonna be reborn on that depth In a better version of you Yes. Yes. Yes I’m very distant from it right now at this present but but but there’s this hope Because i’m just thinking right now So the reason Something that’s kind of Reconnecting me with it or reconnecting me with my hunger for it is this confrontation I need to have with my boss in the coming days I’m terrified of being criticized and I think this is a this is a fear of that fear of ego that in a certain sense And it’s almost like I want to accelerate it Like I want it to happen sooner than that moment So that by the time i’m there i’m already reborn i’m not that person anymore And I had this point during the day today where I realized okay The most fulfilling life you can live is that don’t centralize the future or the past Centralize how you’re working on the vertical not the horizontal anymore Mm-hmm working on your character refining your doing goodness worship all of these things reflection and just Sharpening your your eye sharpening your inner eye sharpening your your soul to to to that’s an extreme language But just sharpening your perception By working on your character by becoming more virtuous and you put that in the center on the short run and on the long run knowing god so or rather unknowing god so I think I went a bit too far off topic Sorry about that But I I can find it back for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So if we go back to to this experience, right like yeah So what you’re effectively describing is um A Letting go of worries, right But then You’re still holding on to part of yourself. Whatever that is, right which which is like Maybe necessary but at least really normal. Yes. Yes. Yes um And then just being confronted with the pit with the pits with the edge but like yeah, like It’s it’s it’s a natural reaction. I think it’s a good reaction, right? Like if you walk up to the edge of the mountain and you see The pit um, yeah, you should at least slow down if not turn around right and And i’ve i’ve had many experiences, right that I come back to the same place and I just walked past it right Literally where the pit would have been right but i’m Down on solid ground, right? So there’s there’s an element where where there’s readiness as well, right? It’s like yeah, like yeah Maybe you should listen in some sense. It’s like yeah, like you’re not supposed to go there, but You’re still supposed to Broaden the base of the mountains so that it can go up higher um, yeah, so that that’s one thing and then What follows from that is that you reflect Right, yeah, and now the question is And and let’s introduce truth back in this like what would what would be a truthful reflection? A truthful reflection is that if I let go I wouldn’t be responsible anymore because letting go in that moment means acknowledging That i’m too tired for this that this is just Not what I want to do and No, no, no, hold on. Hold on. Yeah, like I don’t I don’t think that means that at all I can think now you’re conflating a bunch of things Yeah, but i’ve done it before and that was the that was the outcome But maybe it was okay so so so now you’re you’re preempting your revelation like oh I like I don’t want to have the revelation Because I already know what the revelation is and it’s like You really think that there’s a revelation there if you already know it like Yeah, you make a point you make a point you make a point I mean I mean maybe if I surrender to to because But but but you’re diverging right because you’re giving me an answer of of the outcome I’m i’m looking for the process. I’m not interested in the outcome. Okay. Okay, right because I said truthful, right? So you have an experience right and Yeah, you were talking about your Obligation towards the beauty or towards the other people right? So there’s there’s a sense of obligation that follows from your experience And so then it’s like well, what would it be like to be true to that obligation? To do what you’re supposed to do To do your duty. I I I agree but like like I’m like, I don’t want to get concrete right? Yeah Okay, there’s there’s an obligation right so so i’m I don’t know like I I walk on the street Um, I I step on the street and I almost get run over and I I have this revelation like that’s a bad idea What’s my obligation to that? Don’t take better care when you When you step on the street next time, okay. Well, that’s that’s a personal thing, right? So that that one is pretty straightforward, right? Because like there’s a lesson for me to be learned there And Um, and and maybe there’s there’s there’s a higher level thing. It’s like, oh, yeah Like dude you you’re not paying attention to the world around you and like you you need to just pay attention more because like You’re gonna die Yeah, right. So so there might be a stacking right like this peterson talks about is like where’s the error? Yeah systematic error. Yeah. Yeah, right But but then like okay, but that revelation also has consequences for the people around me Right, like there’s also an obligation that goes to other people but like does that mean that I I have to call everybody in my phone No, no, no, that’s not what I meant. No, no, but no i’m i’m serious right like this is not a joke like We’re trying to get out. What would be truthful, right? Like what would be a truthful behavior of mine? Where I do take responsibility You’re talking in the general sense or the specific sense so in my I’m making the example because we get something to grab but but i’m looking for the principle like I like I need to follow a principle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah What’s the principle by which I know what is truthful in this situation? When i’m there, how how do I assess what’s the method of assessment? Well in in my case I look at everything i’ve been avoiding everything Which I think I should be doing And I just do it for example, for example that no that’s not an option Like that that’s lying to yourself like yeah, i’m just realizing right now that that’s just repeating the same problems again that You’re just taking up what you think you should do and doing that Well, but also you can’t do that Why can’t like that’s because you can’t like you’re a limited being and you can’t fix all your mistakes That’s like that’s not an option you can fix one of them at least well Truthful again, right? Like then you’re lying to yourself. You’re like, oh i’m going through all of the mistakes and then you fix one like that Like i’m not saying you shouldn’t do that or whatever but i’m saying like like your description doesn’t fit what’s happening Well, that’s usually just the impulse Yeah, that’s that’s the impulse right? But but the problem is that you’re telling it to me now, right? So you you have this idea that that’s what you’re doing But i’m telling you you’re not doing that like that’s impossible to do Yeah, maybe I I mean makes sense why everything is still the same some things haven’t changed, right? Right, yeah because if if you were doing that things wouldn’t be the same things wouldn’t be the same exactly things wouldn’t be the same and and The thing the thing is I just go back to blaming myself That I am some evil spoiled brat who just doesn’t know so let’s stay away from that part, right? Let’s say Like stay away from the things that we’re not doing like let’s go back to what’s the principle that we need to follow, right? So we we can’t be our own redeemer like that’s what we concluded, right? Like you you basically said I want to redeem myself, right? I was like, okay, that doesn’t work. Like that’s not an option I Have a sense this is heading towards christianity right now well Like i’m i’m i’m not heading anywhere. Like yeah, the logos is heading somewhere, but i’m i’m trying to point out Okay, right. Let me let me let me play along with this. Let me see where it’s heading for me. Like i’m just i’m there having this experience I don’t i’m not worth it. I have all of these things to do and I just I make the decision Why are you saying that like like you keep saying that like that’s just An idea that you have in your head. Like are you really not worthy? Like like how would you know? Yeah, yeah, but that’s actually just a programmed idea I have in my head it’s yeah Yeah, but like so like don’t don’t say that like that’s a lie Like well, thank you. I appreciate I really appreciate it that you’re saying that That doesn’t mean that I say that you are worthy, right? But i’m just saying that you can’t make that statement. Yeah, you can’t make that judgment. You cannot make that judgment. Absolutely Right. Yeah, and i’m i’m i’m gonna say the same thing for your responsibility to which yourself Like you don’t you don’t know the level of responsibility to which yourself right? Like there might be a case where what you’re saying is correct, right? Like you you can do the thing you can do a self redemption, right? Like because the ground level is like the ground is already laid and all you have to do is plant the seed, right? So that might be an option but it might also not be an option, right? So it’s it’s not a given answer like you have to get this straight, right? Like it’s it’s not A one size fits all solution, right? And the same goes to other people right? like Maybe if if i’m in a family where everybody’s crossing the street, I should call everybody and tell them And they’d be amazingly grateful. They’re like, oh, I don’t know why I didn’t see that like now you tell it to me It’s like that’s the most obvious thing in the world and i’m gonna do that straight away And they’re gonna be safe for the rest of their lives, but that’s an option Right like there might also be an option that they say oh, yeah you with yourself righteous, uh, whatever right? I mean, yeah, or they’re already doing it. Um, i’m not contributing by like having my salvation story shoved in their face, right like like so There’s different relationships which require me to act differently, right? So so if if we go back right and we visit what’s the principle what the principle? Is that you become the person? that Knows when to execute which of the options right which is yes effectively, right? Yes. Yes Yes, and and I think the reason why the impulse heads in this direction of action Of just assuming that I just need to do what I think I need to do is because I think that wisdom will be achieved by this experience Of acting on what I think is my duty whether or not it is my duty I think I have this understanding in my head Come to think of it, but that I don’t want to get too deep into that unless you okay So you have a fantasy and then I wouldn’t call the hands. I call the nightmare. But yeah Yeah Well, yeah, but like it’s it’s a fantasy It’s something that you made up or you say well if I execute what I made up then I become wise Which that’s the thing. I don’t think I made it up at that moment. I’m convinced. This is what i’m supposed to do That’s the problem That sometimes i’m actually convinced that x y or z is what i’m supposed to do everything that’s in your head you made up Okay, like All of your thoughts you made up yes, you have no clue how liberating that is but uh Right like like there’s When we’re talking about truth, right? Like there’s things in your head that you chose to align with for whatever reason, right? And like it’s it’s all fantasies and like the fantasies might be true Right. Yes, they might be actually corresponding to reality. Yes. Yes, but they also might not right like Or they might be partially true, which is probably most of you I think I think I have this totalitarian Conception somehow that that that Actually, I ask you to observe myself doing it that sometimes okay. I have this thought And i’m afraid of it and I tell myself this is just a stupid thought and then the next day it’s proven wrong. Great But then the opposite happens. I have a scary thought I dismiss it then it comes true And then I get this totalitarian reaction that okay all of your anxieties are true This happens very often with me that the truth becomes a matter of what is the worst case scenario? But that’s a psychological thing of not logical thing. Well, yeah, but but Like play dough goes in in the end of book five it goes into I don’t know what the words well, there’s many words because there’s many translations, but like there’s there’s there’s no knowing right which he defines as In Accordance to being right? So so so you If you participate with being In a truthful manner, then you know Right. Yes. So it’s it’s it’s it’s not knowing in the sounds that you have something It’s knowing in the sense that you can access the revelation. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Right, and then you have the realm of opinion Right and the realm of opinion is related to the instantiations Of being right so so he’s talking about beauty, right? Like I I know that whatever like this painting behind me is beautiful Yes, because my friend made it and like I have all of these associations with it, right, but I don’t have a connection with beauty as such Yes Right and because I don’t relate the instance of beauty with beauty as such. I don’t know beauty I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Right. Well, I’ll be honest When we say beauty as such I I wonder if I get what you’re talking about because yeah, it was as I know what i’m talking. Yeah, that’s the thing for me when I see But but like if you go to the definition of knowing that I was using right? And I think beauty is one of the most difficult ones, right because like Uh, it’s Like the goodness is difficult in in in one way because it’s it’s up, right? So it’s unattainable. Yeah, but but it’s really simple in another way. Yeah And then and untrue it is More a skill right like it’s an attunement. Yeah, right and and beauty Is has to do with the symphony of multifaceted Participation in a hole or whatever. I don’t I don’t even know harmonizing the harmonizing of the parts with the whole right That’s beauty the harmonizing that also indicates the whole at the same time, right? And and and so well now if if you if you Get this mental picture where you zoom out right where you see the whole And and the parts contributing in the whole like maybe the best way to do that is a nazi parade right So you have all the soldiers? That are in perfect unison and then they have the music and you have the lights and and You have everything right and it’s all coming together, right? So that’s beauty Mm-hmm Right, or maybe that’s a subset of beauty like who knows but But that that that is beauty right and that’s powerful because it moves people Like people are moved when when I see that. Yes, so um But but to to know What’s behind that? right and to Be able to abstract What makes that beautiful to what makes something else beautiful? Is is really hard like like I don’t I don’t have a good relationship to beauty like I can tell you that immediately But I like I I have a sense in which it expresses itself, but i’m Yeah, i’m i’m i’m Like I probably can’t say i’m not looking for it, but i’m looking definitely at a subset of it. All right, like um So So Why did I go into beauty? Oh, yeah, because because you you said you didn’t have a grasp right but but it’s not it’s not the grasp Right. It’s it’s it’s effectively It’s it’s an awareness of your participation in the revelation or something like like that’s Basically as as much as I can Dare to say about that Well what what I did get from that is practically that You cannot quote unquote have beauty in any Faculty of knowing that you have as a limited being You can but you can see instantiations of beauty you can participate in beauty by being dragged out by beauty But to know beauty itself that is too bold a claim all you can do is know how much you don’t know beauty Right because because like it’s always bigger right you can’t contain you cannot you cannot grasp the whole Right, you can have an all at once intuition how much you don’t know the whole And that’s but also you don’t need to you don’t need you It’s nice if you do but you don’t need to yeah Yeah Well, I don’t know if it’s nice maybe Yeah, yeah, like it it it it it might blind you and destroy you like I don’t know Like like I I don’t know if it’s nice to know that like I don’t know if that’s the thing that we should pursue Like I like and I’m I’m just gonna say flat out don’t pursue it unless you have a reason to Yeah Rumi would agree with you right? Well Yeah, I’m in good company there Yeah But yeah, but like I think playda would agree with me right like because I’d like We go back to this Forbidden knowledge and stuff like that, right? Like other like people Just can’t right or they’re Not at the place in life where they should right? Yeah. Yeah, so that’s two problems, right? Like like That’s not one problem. That’s two problems Yeah, yeah either either they don’t have the capacity for that or they do and if they catch sight of it now It’ll burn them alive and it won’t be ready to Right and and and then if if We go with this other problem, right which is analogous to to your problem is moses comes down From from the mountain he he had he had his revelation from god like he wrote it down And uh, then he’s down and what does he do? Well, he sees reality and he drops his ship That’s the first action right Yeah And and and that to me signifies it’s like well, okay, you have this Divine revelation, but like it’s it’s useless Like you can’t you can’t use it Because people are not participating with you They’re not cooperating. Yeah, that’s profound. That’s profound. Let me just give me a second to to internalize that I Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, yeah this ties into why you might not want to take a peek in that direction Because if you come back you’re gonna lose your shit. You might lose your shit. Maybe you can’t maybe you won’t but maybe you will Well, yeah, but but like Well, well there’s there’s losing your shit, but it’s also like it’s also in in playdough, right? You go outside of the cave You’re like, oh awesome, right? They go back in Nobody will believe you you’ll be ostracized like like like the whole of book six is like uh All if you’re a true philosopher all of the people are going to corrupt you, right? Like and and when when when you’re corrupted you’re effectively going to be a mad genius Which means that you’re the most evil Person that you can exist right because you have all of this capacity, but you’re gonna misapply it right and And and then it’s like well like people want to use you right like people can’t understand you right? so you’re effectively gonna give up and and you’re gonna like separate yourself from participation with these people because like You can’t like which is actually Pretty much the story that I live But you you see the problem Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you basically alienate yourself from people Right and and and what what does moses do right? He sets up aron as as his voice. He already did that before right? And then he he gathers a bunch of elders, right? And then the elders So there’s this this trickled down this diluting this levels of reality in which A translation happens into the participation until it it enters the level Of daily life effectively, right which would be all the sheep Mm-hmm And All of that goes wrong by the way, right because they all don’t get to enter israel, right like that So like even that doesn’t work. Yeah so just When when you try to take that role just realize The futility of of that exercise this this is this is reminding me of something actually plato said That you don’t get to choose this so Violence is when the leader decides i’m going to be i’m going to go up the mountain When you try to go up the mountain and you’re not called toward the mountain. That’s it’s like Raising yourself up to a position that wasn’t meant for you No Well, I I I think if you go up the mountain god will just burn you right like you’ll you get you get to see his face And then you die Yeah, right like that. That’s what happens when you go up the mountain, right like and and Either either you’re leading right and and so you’re you’re inheriting authority from moses or Well, the update would be jesus, right? So so you’re inheriting you’re doing things in jesus’s name, right which which would mean that You’re you’re properly aligned within the hierarchy Or you’re doing it in your own name Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s what I meant. That’s exactly what I meant That’s very but but but if you’re doing it in your own name, you’re not going up the mountain You’re the mountain You’re the mountain in place Yeah, I I think I meant more this that you’re going up in your own name not in the name of somebody else not not As a service but rather as self-service Right and and goic journey And like this is the thing that I wanted to explore maybe we can explore that in relation to truth because we Bind it back to truth, right? So so what would it be? well well, I I still don’t think people understand what names mean and I don’t think that I Know what what a name means right? If I do something in your name I used your authority, right? So in some sense also the responsibility goes to you, right? Like I’m not responsible. Okay Um, so so I I am the agent Right But i’m expressing your agency. Yes Yeah Right And so when we start looking at christ in that way, right? And doing things in christ’s name and invoking his name then things start to make a bit more sense um And and and there was there was people who? Identified with moses right or with king david or whatever, right? So there’s these different authorities, right or these different principles Because that’s not effectively what they are, right? They’re principalities That Put you in A truthful relationship With god or with reality or both obviously but Um And then the question is Well, what what is true? Right. Like what does it mean to be truthful? and then like What would it mean to be truthful in moses’s name? Well, like that would mean that you hold his commandments and you follow all of all of the sacrifice stuff and And the festivals and all all the things right so you you And the circumcision right so you embody yourself in a liturgy effectively, right? You’re in a story Right That is imitating his story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Striking me is very similar to faithfulness You’re faithful to his story you’re faithful to you’re putting your pieces Where he put his pieces? So that you can conform to the pattern where his pieces are laid right Yeah, so that’s truthfulness for you What you’re calling truthfulness. Well So so you were talking about the the the the thing right That that holds the story, right? So Your your being true To the name, right? But that name Has been granted authority from god through revelation. Mm-hmm right, so Then it’s inheriting the goodness From the revelation in the name Of the father So there’s the goodness And then there’s Moses the story of moses and the structure around it and then there’s doing things in the name of moses And when you do that in the name of moses when you inherit the agency of moses by putting your pieces in the right place as moses That’s when you’re inheriting the goodness This is what you meant by that. Yeah, that’s the way that I look at it. Yeah. So this is truth. So basically what I meant by faithfulness is what you mean by truthfulness. And truth… Well, truth is within his revelation, right? Yeah. Truth is not something you can have in the end. It’s just… You’re being true to something. Yeah. So I can be true to wanting to kick your ass, right? Yeah. But what does that say about my relationship with reality? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, I might… Like, that might be also a relationship with reality, right? But then it would have to inherit goodness from somewhere to justify it. So you can say, you can define it more abstractly, truthfulness is being true to something, is acting in a way that inherits the goodness from it. But that’s… Yeah, but what do I do with that? That’s what I’m asking myself. And authority as well, right? Well, yeah. Well, authority is going to come naturally anyway from it. I mean, I want to translate this to something practical. I agree. I agree. It’s just what I was… So obviously I was confusing truth and goodness together. I was equating them and they should be like one, not equal. Well, this is what a lot of Christians do, right? Like, they’re putting it all in Jesus. And it’s like, OK, but that’s not helpful, right? Yeah. Because that’s confusing the discernment. So the problem is that, yes, right? Like, that’s true, right? Like, in Jesus, goodness and truth are combined. And he’s the source of them as well. But it’s not helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does it do for me? Like you just collapsed two dimensions or three dimensions in one. Yeah, like those dimensions are useful because they give discernment and inform the right. I’m trying to extract something symbolic that can connect me to this discernment a bit more deeply. So personally, the way I am true to God is by prayer, by sincere prayer. I think that the sincerity also plays a huge role here. You’re not just true with your body, you’re also true with your heart. Because the truth of the body, being true with your body is nothing. It’s a stabbing stone. Well, yeah, like you could say that the truth of your body is in accordance with matter. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then there’s the truth of your heart. And I’m just thinking of that. And truth of the mind. Yeah. So I think truth of the heart would probably relate to goodness and truth of the mind would be to truth or logic, right? Like something like because it would be. Yeah, like, yeah, not not truth, but being true or something. Being true. Yes, yes, yes. Being true. Being true. Okay, so the truth of the heart is goodness. Truth of the mind relates to whatever we call being true. Then there’s the truth. Yeah. So now I’m completely reframing truth right now. It has no longer anything to do with a statement or correspondence even. That’s like far removed from. Well, those statements are expressions of what is true to you, hopefully, because that’s your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Then the correspondence works in this way that it’s true to me. It’s true to what I’m saying. It’s true to the gist of what I’m trying to say. In that sense, the correspondence then. Yes, that’s what you’re expressing. And we had a bunch of conversations about that, right? Because like that, if you accept that as limitation. Yeah, right. Like in some sense, your responsibility for the receiver also falls away. Right. So you can say you can just speak truth and they can either handle it or they can. Right. And then you can speak a new truth that you think they can handle if that’s what you want to do. Yeah. Oh, wow. That’s a big one. That’s a really big one. It puts a huge responsibility. Because now you’re not because you’re carrying something that is not yours and representing it to other people. And you better than represented in a good way. Or not. Yeah, you’re speaking for it. Yeah. Yeah, but you can you can just refuse. Right. Because like in church, right, like you are only supposed to talk about what is revealed to you. Right. So you can only take responsibility for the things, the authority that you’ve inherited. Because if you haven’t inherited it, then how how can you profess it? My God, that’s a very, very big thing. It’s hitting, hitting hard right now. It’s really hitting hard. Why do people talk to begin with? Right. So you must be a very careful talker. I think that’s why you correct me so much when I’m speaking, because I noticed that whenever I give metaphors, you’re always disagreeing. I’ve had a lot of revelations, right. And some of them are full. Most of them are partial. Right. Like I haven’t fully explored them. They seem right. But like, like, I haven’t looked at the body right or the Gestalt. Like I’m going to use body because because so so I don’t I don’t know it. Like I don’t I’m not intimate with it. Like there’s some things that I am intimate with. But like there’s things that I’m not intimate with. But like that doesn’t mean that I can’t intuit it. It just means that I don’t know what that means. Right. It’s far away from you. It’s so far away from you. You just have a sense that there’s something there, but it’s not in you yet. Right. But and this is where people get really frustrated with me. Right. Like this stuff like saying what’s true is one thing. But saying what’s false, that’s that’s easy. Everything that doesn’t fit right is wrong. Or I’m wrong. Like that’s the two options. I’m like I’m just like no, I’m no longer wrong. Or like if I’m wrong, the chance that I’m wrong compared to the chance that you’re wrong is like it’s not even a fair game. And that’s why you say you speak from authority sometimes because you know whatever you’re saying that’s coming from an authentic source. Right. And people don’t like that. Right. Well, of course, they don’t like that. But but but that I mean, I mean, I’ll be honest with you. I’m I’m I’m questioning now. I’m trying to look back and see which of my I don’t even know if I’ve ever had any authentic revelations before. I’m not sure. I don’t know. No, no, you have to. I was you’re insane. Like that’s that’s reassuring. Well, that’s reassuring because I have a tendency to doubt myself. Right. Because see, this is this is this is exactly what I meant. You just shared something that’s very, very beautiful. I find very beautiful. I hope I’m using my words carefully. I find it beautiful what you just shared that. Yes, this is valuable what you’re receiving and you want to represent properly. And so I snap to the reality where, OK, you’re never going to do this again. You’re not worth it. You don’t even have the skills for this. So just cut it off completely. And then you come and correct me and you say, no, no, no, no, no, you always have revelation. Yeah. Right. But the revelation in what name? Right. Like that. That’s in what name? That’s where you have to be careful. The decision is difficult. Yeah, the discernment is difficult. That’s what we wanted to get to the point of discernment. How do you discern? Right. And this is where I hold option for being wrong. Right. Because like I might still be not acting in the right name. Right. Because you can’t see the water that you swim in. Right. So I might like I believe that I’m working in the name of Jesus. Right. But there’s still things that I struggle with in the Bible. Right. So it’s like, what does that mean? Right. Like, does that mean that I’m in conflict or does that mean that I haven’t had the full revelation yet? Mm hmm. Right. And I’m going on faith that I’m like, no, no, no, like the revelation will come like, like, because I’m true. Right. Yes. Yes. Because you’re faithful to it. You have. Yeah. Yeah, I see your point. I see what you’re trying to say. And I have a sense that when you say revelation, like every time revelation happens, you see a gestalt, which you never saw before. You start seeing how many parts are linked together behind the scenes. That’s what you mean by revelation. But even like like like like for Fakie talks about this, right? Like people started telling me that I acted differently. Right. So he had revelations that he didn’t realize that he had. Mm hmm. Right. So so like it’s you don’t have to see the gestalt in order to have a revelation. Right. I think I think this is this is where for Fakie goes completely wrong. Yes. Yes. That’s actually very helpful. It’s very helpful that you don’t. That’s true. Like I think for Fakie doesn’t see the gestalt actually. And that’s why he like he’s he’s inheriting revelations from other people. Right. Like all the philosophers. Yeah. And he’s he’s not owning. He’s not participating in his own revelation. Right. Like he’s he’s literally loyal to their names. Like he said it like he used the words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he’s loyal to their words, but not loyal to their wealth. No, no, he is. Right. He’s just a hypocrite. Right. Like he has different loyalties and they’re conflicting and he’s not resolving the conflicting loyalties. OK, so he’s just living a conflict. He’s a conflicted person because he’s he’s he’s not unified under one name. So what I’m what I’m what I’m hearing you say is that he basically has these many systems that are not meant to fit together. They’re impossible. I can I can just yeah, I can prove. Yeah, basically, this is basically like like being a Christian who prays the Muslim prayer. No, this is like you’re taking something from a very complex system and putting it in a system where it doesn’t belong. It’s just going to destroy everything. It’s not going to make there. Jesus talks about this. I think he says. When they ask him, why are the disciples not fasting, but we are fasting. And then he says you need to put that you don’t put a piece of unshrunk cloth in in old garments. First, you you need to shrink it and then you put it in a new garment. Otherwise, it turns everything for it. You’re complaining, treating. Right. So the first thing the first thing that he says is when when the people are with the bridegroom, they celebrate. And they don’t fast like that. That’s right. Yeah, that’s what he said. Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. He does say. OK, I don’t know. I’m not an expert. But that that that that’s important. Right. Like that that that’s framing that breaks constraint. Right. So so that there’s a time and place for everything effectively. Right. Ecclesiastes anyway. Then he goes into the wine skins. Right. So, yes, basically you don’t reuse old wine skins. Right. So you don’t put new wine in old wine skins because that’s where they break. Right. So you put new wine in new wine skins. Right. So I think this is a reference to new followers of the faith. Right. And basically this is the on ramp discussion in some sense. Right. It’s like like you you you you you cannot use your dogmatic whatever bullshit that you guys are doing on these new people because it doesn’t work. Like they need to have their own path. And then the other part is when you patch a cloak, right, which would be putting a new piece of cloth on the old skin, right. A piece of cloth is basically that which protects you. Right. So so in some sense that is a name. Right. Like when when I when I walk into another country and I show my passport. Right. Like my passport protects me. Right. Like in the name of my country, I am present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so and then there’s there’s this cloak right which has this gap right. And then they’re trying to repair the gap. And it’s like well you have new stuff that’s not washed and it’s not like it has a different tension. Right. Like after after it’s being used then you can it doesn’t change in size anymore. Then you can put it on. Right. So you need to account for that. So that’s the other one. Yeah. And that yeah that that that is referencing. Well I guess integration. Right. So you can’t just replace. Right. Like you can’t say OK like this this was my minion. Right. And now this other person is coming in. I’m just going to put them in the same form which is actually literally what I was saying. Right. Like that’s why I mentioned it. That’s exactly why I mentioned it. Because it relates. I mean the spirit of the whole thing is that you can’t just put. Yeah. I mean I have to admit I still love John very very very much. So it’s very hard for me to see his faults. I see his faults in other places. But in terms of. Well no like like I think I think it’s really simple. Right. So when when John talks to whatever. Right. He he talks to them and he gets enthusiastic. Well so what does it mean to be enthusiastic. That means that your passions take over. OK. Which means that your discernment decreases. And you’re participating in a formation. I’m using the word affirmation but confirmation. Confirmation confirming it’s conforming it yourself. But like I think you’ve heard affirmation is really important because I’ve been using that a lot lately. Right. Like because what what is it what is he doing. He’s he’s affirming his worldview. Yeah. Right. So so what he’s he’s kind of doing what I’m doing. Right. So he’s he’s talking to someone and then he’s aligning whatever piece of his work with that person. Right. And then there’s a correspondence. Right. But but he’s he’s not doing that with his whole being. He’s only doing it with the parts that are right not with the parts that are wrong. No he’s no he’s doing it with what is functional in the moment. OK. Right. And that’s that’s the problem. Right. So he’s he’s drawing conclusions in in a reciprocally narrowed frame that he doesn’t have the capacity to integrate in the bigger frame. And now we go again back to agreement. Right. What does it mean to agree. Right. So so if if there is an accordance with something that you know then you recognize a intelligibility and you think that there’s agreement. Right. Yeah. If that then no longer is integrated. Right. If that that is not integrated then what are you doing. Right. Like like it doesn’t fit in the higher. You’re just putting yourself just affirming yourself in this case you’re forming a parasite that’s growing right now that’s masquerading as something that’s absolute or belongs to the whole but doesn’t actually belong to the whole. Yeah but like I would I would argue that most people are not fully integrated. I don’t. I think it’s necessary to not be fully integrated because I think it’s something that you cultivate like it like it doesn’t seem like a natural state of your mind to be integrated. Can I be fully integrated as a limited being. Yes. Keep changing. You can’t. Right. But like you have to really understand your concept of truth. Right. Like so. So if like this is where accordance theory of truth has value. Right. Like if being true is you being able to be in accordance with reality. Right. But not in speaking. Right. In being. Yeah. Right. Or better that like in accordance with being. Right. Because I don’t think you need to be in accordance with reality because like you need to be in accordance with a subset of reality which is being. Yeah. And being is good. Right. So there’s there’s a way of it you can attune your relevance realization in your participation in such way that you always orient towards the right things. And you can optimize that. Right. And then you can say well yeah I like you still struggling. But it’s like yeah but I like I’m doing the thing in the best way possible. Right. So it’s still yes there’s no there’s the fruit is not coming. Yes there’s a struggle but at least I’m remaining coming back. I keep coming back. Right. And like at a certain point right like you also have to realize that your judgment about yourself and how you’re in the world changes as a consequence of having the understanding of your participation in being. Right. So how do you how do you identify right with what you’re doing. And we were talking about failure. Right. And it’s like well a failure is a failure in the frame of having mode right like I want to achieve the thing immediately in front of me. But if I integrate it in a narrative the failure is just a step on on the road. Yeah. And it’s like well when do I suffer. Right. Like when when is failure painful if I am reciprocally narrow. If I’m if I’m just like OK. I’ll whatever. Right. Like I’m just going to get there anyway. Then the failure is just not not even relevant. And like I think this can be true for everything. Right. Like I got dumped in a relationship like I I effectively could treat it that way. Right. I was like yeah this this wasn’t going to happen. Right. Like like the way that that everything was aligned wasn’t able to to manifest truth. Right. And therefore what happened was good. So I should treat what happened as good. And you can’t believe that. But you have to. Like I could have chosen a different way. Right. Like it’s like oh I’ve been trying so hard and I finally got somewhere and now it broke. Right. And I can get stuck on that forever if I want to. And so what is truth. Right. Like like is there truth in the way that I understand that that situation because I think there is. Right. And the way the way that there’s truth in that is like what is the way that I react that allows me to maintain my relationship to reality or God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So by by taking this as a stepping stone in the way you’re actually in conformity with the way things are that is the bigger the through line which is unfolding itself and still unfolding itself you’re giving it a chance to still unfold itself by accepting the failure that haven’t run in front of you. But I’m going to make it more extreme. Right. I should promote that failure. Like I should want that failure. Because because it’s not true to the picture that is really supposed to happen to the destiny. Right. Right. I was sitting right. I was in sin. I was in a situation that couldn’t lead to goodness. OK. OK. OK. So you were saved from your own sin in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when when you see it that way. Right. It’s like oh like like that that disastrous thing is actually the best thing that could have happened to have happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like oh well what like that’s just magic. Right. Like now you flip flip your experience completely opposite. It’s almost as if when you have that truthfulness these things just happen. No. You just matter. They manifest for you when you when you’re sort of oriented in that direction of truthfulness like seek and you shall find. Yes. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like I am struggling with with another part which is vision. Right. Like in in. Well there’s an orientation. I like I have an abstract orientation but like there’s an orientation in the flesh as well. Right. Like like the flesh also needs expression. I have a problem combining these these two. But yes. So the vision is that which drives you forward. Right. So then that allows you to judge. Right. Like that allows you to adjust within your orientation because if you don’t if you don’t have that then. You’re not you’re not you’re not aware of what’s wrong. Right. And while this goes probably back to beauty. Right. Like I’m like my relationship with you. You lost me in this one. Well the vision is is hope. Right. Like it’s what appeals. Yes. And that has to be expressed in beauty. Right. Because it can’t be in goodness or in truth. Like that doesn’t make sense. I agree with that. Yes. I agree with that. Yes. I agree with that. It does does have to be in beauty this time. This this is this is why it’s difficult to put goodness as the first thing. Right. Because now it’s beauty drawing me forth. So like it’s beautiful. It’s never the first thing in your perspective. It is like me. Like goodness is the first thing or should be the first thing in how I respond. Right. Because that’s where I get my judgment. But but it’s insufficient to draw me forward. Right. Because like like like the goodness is drawing me out of the frame that I already have. OK. Right. Because the goodness puts constraints me with the truth. Right. In in in a frame. Right. So it’s really narrow. And then goodness breaks you out again. Right. So I don’t know. I don’t fully understand what happened. Yeah. Because because the way because as limited beings beauty is what breaks you out of the frame or shatters the frame for you. Well there’s more things than that. But yes. But yeah. One of the things that of course there’s more things than that. But you one of the things beauty is that shatters the frame for you. It can either lead to wonder or horror. But I think beauty is a thing that you need to cultivate just like truthfulness and goodness. Right. Yeah. Your understanding of it. So I think fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Right. You don’t have to cultivate fear. You see the distinction anyway. So there’s a bootstrap like these these these highest principles. They’re not available to people. You need to work for that. You need to work on it. Yeah. You need to work from obviously. You need to suffer for them. You need to suffer from them. And that’s that’s what I meant when I catch glimpses. Maybe I’m not catching this argument to say that I’m catching glimpses. But when I experience something of something beautiful and I recognize for a brief instant that this is there’s this beauty. I recognize this goodness. Then these this response of I know that I need to suffer. And I think that’s where the fear of living comes in then. But that’s just a different topic right now. Yeah. But again, right. Like what’s what’s your response? Right. It’s like is being good. Right. And do you treat it as an aspiration, an inspiration, an aspiration? It’s like you you you you taste it of of the fruits in the garden. You don’t know how much you tasted. But you tasted of of their reality. And so like you you you you can you can you can see that as a calling because like it is like it is a calling. So why why would you treat it as as a flaming sword? That’s the that’s the that’s the negative valence again. Right. The negative valence that speaks out and calls callings warnings. Has a do it or else attitude towards it. That’s the demon. I’d say. I’d say. Well, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like it it it. But but there’s a reason for like I guess I’m like yes, it’s a demon. But there’s a reason behind the demon. Right. Yeah, I think I think I think the reason is that you don’t have faith. Right. Like you don’t talk as if what happens to you is by the grace of God. Because like if if you fully believe that, then like he he chose to show it to you. So like like like who are you to say that you’re unworthy if God showed it to you? Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense. Yeah, it’s it’s just the way I’ve been programmed to think about myself. It’s an automated response of of. Yeah, but who are you to challenge God’s judgment? Like because that’s what I don’t know. I don’t know God’s judgment. That’s not I know you are. But you are challenging God’s judgment by making your own judgment. Yeah, like that. That is what making your own judgment is. By a human. You’re speaking from an authority that you don’t have. Oh, yes, that’s beautiful. Yes, it’s very beautiful. That is very, very beautiful. That’s that’s that kind of shattered or not shattered just knocks knocks it in the head a little bit because that part with authority and not being true to God when I’m making this assumption. Mm hmm. I’m doing the exact opposite. I’m just placing something on God that’s not there to begin with. Oh, who knows if it’s there or not? Yeah, it’s not relevant. Like you don’t get to decide. Yeah. It’s not your place. Yeah, like I have I have this one when I when I speak to people, right? They tell me what I think. Like, like speaking for me. Like you you you you have not a chance in how to understand what I’m thinking. Yeah, like I’m so specialized in my thinking that like it’s not even an option to chase where I’m at. For you like like you’d have to dedicate your life to understand where I’m coming from. No, I’m serious. Right. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know. So like like what is the hubris in in in this this move? I know what you’re thinking or I know you can like I do that to other people. Right. But like I do I do it on really abstract levels. Right. Like you’re motivated by this spirit. Right. Like I don’t I don’t have to know what’s happening in their head because I can see their expression. Right. Like like you’re definitely embodying the spirit. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I get on my nerves. I don’t know why like I don’t need to know what crazy things happening your head that you’re in that spirit. You’re in that spirit. You either choose to remain in that spirit or you snap out of it. Right. Like that’s the proposition. And people can do that to me as well. they can say, well, you’re in that spirit. And then I can say, oh, yeah, oops, like that, that’s it. Like I shouldn’t be in that spirit. Yeah. But you can’t say what’s in my head. Or you can’t say why I’m angry. Like you can say I’m angry, but like you can say why. Like you have no clue why I’m angry. Sometimes I don’t have the clue why I’m angry. Yeah, of course. And you can’t, that’s the other person’s mystery. You can’t really go there. No, but like even for yourself. Yeah, even for myself. Absolutely. Like when there’s emotionally intense things happening, like my mind goes to all sorts of reasons, like explanations, right? It wants to explain, like it wants to understand. Like I recently trained myself. It’s like, no, like that’s just an excuse. It doesn’t matter. And this goes back to truth, right? Like what’s relevant? Right? Like what was relevant when I got dumped? Could it be repaired? Yeah. Like was it generative to continue the participation in this way? And like even, like no, right? And then the question is, well, could the participation have changed as a consequence of me identifying that the participation was wrong? And the answer is yes, right? Like I believed that that could have happened, but I don’t think I could have manifested that change. Like I don’t believe I had the capacity to exert the influence to make that happen. Yeah. And then, well, that’s all that’s relevant, right? You can give five million excuses of reasons like this didn’t go wrong or whatever. It’s not relevant. Yeah. The more important thing is the takeaway that you get out of it. What do I take out of this? What do I get from these emotions? What are they trying to, what is the relevance they’re pointing to? That’s it. Then you’re done with it. Well, the emotions that I’m having is missing, right? Like you’re missing something that was there, right? That’s no longer there. And so now you’ve got to do something with this mourning, right? Like it’s literally mourning, right? Like there’s an image of the future, if not explicit implicit, that died. Yeah. It’s no longer a potential, which you treat it as actual, right? Yeah. It’s like, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you having this fantasy in your head that you’re treating as actual when it’s a conditional potential, right? And this is where binding comes in, right? So if you bind yourself by writing a contract or entering into a covenant with the god, for example, right? Like in his name, right? You actualize, you concretize reality for yourself. You put yourself under a constraint, which is the rock upon which you built. Yeah. It’s the cornerstone of your being. Yeah. And that falls when that falls apart, like you have less ground to stand on and you need to be ready to have, you need to have an alternative ground. That’s what happens in my own story. Like I had relationship story where that was the ground of everything that fell apart. I know, I know what you’re talking about, right? But I had to build everything from the start. So yeah, right. But that was an improper cornerstone. Yeah, exactly. It was an improper. And like the proper cornerstone is effectively where you bind your life to, literally, like life and death. Like, I cannot renounce this being because that’s all I am. There’s no me outside of this. Yeah, it goes to your core. So the very core of your being when you bind yourself to something. Right. And that’s how you can become a martyr. But like, there’s no other way to get to that place. Right. And then, well, is what you martyr yourself for generative, right? Because you could say that there’s people that martyr themselves for the nation or whatever, right? They’re not called martyrs, right? Like they’re heroes or whatever, right? So like, that’s already defining that there’s a lesser and maybe improper, right? Like you could say, well, all authority is from God and they’re, but you get into crazy things. But so there’s a hierarchy in respect that these people get as well, right? So to bind it back to truth a bit, yeah, you want to pop in, bind some things together? Because I think the binding aspect is maybe a good thing to bind everything together with. Yeah, that’s fine. Things together. Now we said a lot of things, but right now it’s coming to mind. Yeah. So when you’re truthful, you’re not really knowing you’re actually unknowing quite a lot. But that’s just our misconception of knowing. Like we’re misunderstanding what knowing means. Yeah, we think knowing is having knowledge, whereas knowing is sort of actually to realize that you do not know. And in that realization, you actually become receptive because you make space for the new. That’s what Socrates said, right? Yeah, that’s learned ignorance. That’s learned ignorance, basically. Yeah, I don’t know. Okay. I don’t know. I think it’s reverence. Like it’s not learned ignorance. It’s just reverence. Yeah. You revere the potential. Like it’s not ignorance. Like it’s literally- Absolutely. No, no, absolutely. It’s not ignorance. Absolutely not. Yeah, yeah. It’s the opposite of ignorance. It is the opposite of ignorance. Like I said, I know when I know things and when I don’t know things, but when I don’t know things, I still know. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It’s going from a place of authority. Because when you don’t know things, that’s when you’re receiving. That’s- Yes. And that’s where humility comes in, right? Yes. People don’t understand this. They think I’m arrogant, right? But that just means that when I talk to them, I talk about things I know about and therefore I’m almost always smarter than the person that I talk to because I talk about things that I know about. Right? And the person is talking from their knowledge. Right. But when I step out of that realm that I know about, I become completely humble. Like I flip because I’m not the authority. Yeah. I cannot lead. I’m blind. And I know I’m blind. And I know that when I’m blind, I need to listen to other people. Right? And I think that’s what humility is. Like I think people misunderstand humility. Right? Like I think humility is the capacity to put yourself in relationship to the other, which means that sometimes humility means that you should stand above them and condescend. Like I think that’s part of humility. And I think that people don’t realize that. Let me think about this one. It’s an interesting perspective there. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because you’re humble in relationship to God. You’re not humble in relationship to the person in front of you. Like that’s a misorientation. You’re not supposed to orient against the person in front of you. Yeah. That’s what fixes it. Interesting. Interesting. I need to process this one, but it’s a very, very interesting way because it kind of gets you out of the problem of that because you can’t be humble to all people. Because if you are humble to all people, then you get eaten alive by the wolves. I think that’s a sin. Like if you have authority, use the stupid authority. Like I don’t understand. Like if you have authority and you’re not using it, you’re in sin. Like just flat out, like you’re a sinner. Like you can point towards the good and you’re not doing it. Oh yeah, absolutely. That’s like… Because that’s what authority is. Like authority flows from God. Authority is responsibility. It’s also like duty. To those, much has been given, much is required. Much is required. Yeah. Right. And what if the person to most has been given, they’re supposed to sacrifice the most? Unfortunately, yeah. Not unfortunately. Like it’s like an iron law at this point. It’s like, oh right. And maybe that’s the truth that’s in Christ that nobody looks at. It’s like… Yeah, much has been given. Because he’s been given full authority. It’s multiple times there. He’s given all authority from God, which means that he has to die. It’s like… Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m having a completely different idea of authority right now, because authority in my head used to be like, this person you’re supposed to obey. But now that’s completely different. It’s like, no, this person represents something bigger than you and him. And it’s not that by definition, you’re supposed to obey them. No. By obeying this person, you’re obeying what they’re representing. And authority as… But there’s more, right? Because… The whole. To wish they’re true. No, but there’s a different level, right? Because you are supposed to obey them, unless it’s a conflict with your relationship with God. Like, you are supposed to obey the authority. And the reason that you’re supposed to obey the authority is because you don’t have their knowledge. Right? So they’re at a level of reality, which is above you necessarily, right? That has a different knowing, with different revelation, that’s not accessible to you. Yes. They’re wiser. No. No? Okay. No. But you don’t know that. No, I’m confused. You don’t know if they’re wiser or not. It’s irrelevant. But isn’t this like when you’re saying they’re seeing reality at a higher level? That doesn’t mean that they’re wiser, that just means that they have different knowledge. They know different beings. They know differently than you. Yes. They know a different being, right? Like… They know a different being. Yeah. They’re participating in a different being. And you cannot participate in that being, unless you’re at their office. Yes. Yeah. Then you need to be unconditionally obedient, because any condition you impose does not belong in their conditions, does not belong in their world to begin with. Right. Which is a really rough message. It is a rough message, and it’s kind of pushing all my buttons at the moment. I think I have a problem. It’s still pushing my buttons as well. Yeah. But, right? Like, if… Two things, right? One thing is, like, why are you rebelling? Right? Like, that means that you know better. Right? Like, where’s this authority? Like, that’s God’s authority. Oh! Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Right? Yeah. And then it’s like, but God’s authority put that person above you. So, like, you’re now in a contradiction, right? So, that’s one thing. And secondly, like, if you are better, you should be faithful and dutiful, and you will be put in the place of authority. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. This is exactly why I have a problem with it. This is exactly why I push it, because I have a tendency to just accept what the other person is saying. You know what I mean? It’s like, I just assume that the other person has their authority sometimes. Sometimes I just get taken out by people who act authoritatively. Right. Yeah. And I kind of have my assessment of them, because they seem to be successful. They’re very… They give wise advice. They have this list of criteria where they qualify as a person of God. Yeah, but you’re universalizing. This is the problem. You’re idealizing, you mean? No, no, no. Universalizing No, no, no. Universalizing. Universalizing. Right. So, they might be wise. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean that they’re wise at every… Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. This is what the thing, right? You can only give advice about the thing that you have a revelation of. Yeah, yeah. So, they have revelations in this aspect of life, but life is combinatorially explosive, so you can’t just assume that they had revelation everywhere, all over the place. Well, you can assume that they hadn’t. You can’t assume any of them. You can assume that they hadn’t. Like, it is a rule that they don’t have authority on every area. Yeah. Like, Jesus wasn’t married. Yeah. Like, he didn’t talk about that, right? Like, maybe there’s a reason why he didn’t talk about it, because he didn’t have authority to talk about it. Okay. Okay. So, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t hold truth which is relevant to marriage, and that people can have within the truths his truth have revelations about marriage, about marriage, right? Like, within his name, marriage can still be subsumed. Yeah. That’s… That was my… The line of reasoning that was going through my head, that whatever truths he reveals or whatever he gave, it can be connected to marriage somehow. Right. Yeah. He didn’t have the authority to talk about it directly, but yeah. This… No, no, no. It has to relate to marriage. Like… Yeah, of course it has to. Because if he is the source of truth, right, then all of being, and marriage is part of being, has to be under his name. Contained in there. Yeah. That’s the Muslim view of the Quran, I think. I think. I think one… Well, yeah, they should say that, yes. Because else they have a problem. Then they’re not coherent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, the lack of… Never mind. I’m not going to get into this. Yeah. Like, you see how I can say things about things I don’t know about? Right? Because I don’t know anything about Islam, but I know about what is necessary. Right? Like, this is what I’ve been doing. I’ve been looking at all the things that are necessary. Like, you can’t get around this. You can’t get around that. And what’s this rebellion stuff? Well, the rebellion stuff is saying, well, I know it better. Right? I’ll just ignore all of these things, and then I make my local system that just relates to these five variables, and then we get utopias. Like, nope. You need to account for all of these things. And what accounts for all of these things? Well, that’s an open system. And I don’t know if Islam is an open system, actually. Because I have the suspicion that Islam is not, or it moves in that direction. Just like Protestantism. I don’t think Protestantism is an open system either. Yeah. I don’t have the authority to comment on that. So… I don’t either. But that’s the gestalt that I’m seeing. Right? The authority that I have… No, no, no. The gestalt that you’re seeing. I’m going to change my place and get to a bit more comfortable location, if you don’t mind. Yeah. Go on. Well, okay. So let’s just… What’s the claim of the Protestants? Right? Like, we have this book, and this book is the source of everything. Right? It’s the word of God. What? No, no, no, no, no. It’s more. It’s the source of everything. The Quran? No. The Bible. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Sure. And I think the Quran is kind of making the same claim. That’s why you’re not allowed to burn it. It’s like… When you say source of everything, you mean like literally everything or all knowledge or… Well, like what’s the difference between all knowledge and everything? Ah, that’s a good question. There you go. That’s like Jonathan Pazot saying that the Lord’s Prayer contains all of creation. Right? Yeah. That’s probably true. All the secrets of being. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because I’ve actually read this… So I’m saying this because I read this from a Sufi mystic that the Quran contains the secrets of being. But again, I’d like to highlight to the viewers that I’m not a good authority on Islam. I’m just saying what I remember. Yeah, yeah. But I think you have to say that. Okay. Like if you don’t say that, then you’re… What are you doing? You’re not making a universal claim and so you’re incomplete. Which is fine, but also you’re a limited authority at that point. Right? Which a religion can do. Because if a religion is making a claim of a limited authority, then they’re challenging their own authority. Yeah. Yeah. So that doesn’t work. Right? So Christianity got this hack with Jesus, right? So they say Christ is the authority. Right? And Christ is a person, right? Which is the source of revelation. And now you fix the problem. Because now you’re no longer in a closed system. Because Christ is in a closed system. So for Christians, Christ makes the system an open system. It’s no longer confined to a book, but by being confined to a person, it becomes an open system. And what that looks like practically, I am imagining right now, and please correct me if I’m wrong, what that looks like practically is when you pray to Jesus and you listen and you receive, that’s the open system. It is open to revelation. Right. Okay. And like this is the problem with Protestants again, right? Like I think Protestants, because of personal revelation, right? Like they cut out the hierarchy effectively, right? Because like, you can play the game with God. Like you don’t need Moses’s whatever. Right? That breaks it. Right? Because now the book is the authority. And I don’t think the book can hold the authority because you need to interpret the book. Okay. So and the interpretation for you comes from revelation. Yes, it comes from the living tradition. Absolutely, from the living tradition. And the living tradition is that which guides you in your path to revelation. Like that’s what it is. All right. No, Islam has pretty much the same thing that you have to judge it in the light of the living tradition. Right. But the Protestants cut that off. Yeah, they cut the tradition completely off. They blinded themselves and just put themselves in a closed system where they only cross-reference the Bible to figure everything out. But like, I think Islam has done the same thing because they don’t have a central authority. Right. So effectively, they’re in the same problem as the Protestants. Like, I don’t see how they’re not. Maybe they’re not, but like. Because they don’t have the central authority of Jesus, you mean? Well, but also. No, I mean, I mean, so when you say central authority, you mean in the sense of Christ, not in the sense of a church, for example. Yeah, but the church is the representation of the body of Christ on earth. Okay. Like that, it’s literally the body of Christ. Yeah. I don’t think I should be talking about this. I don’t have that. No, no, but it’s like, what makes you say that? Right. Like this makes me say that. Right. So what are the Protestants doing? Well, they’re having the, they’re not doing the same thing. They’re not doing the same thing. They’re not doing the same thing. So what are the Protestants doing? Well, they’re having the body of Christ with a spiritual head. They don’t have a physical head. Right. It’s like, okay, like how do you fund something to work with a spiritual head? Because now, like, Jesus takes the wheel, literally, right? Like, because who’s in charge of the telos? Hmm. So what is the thing that binds to go back to the binding? Well, nothing is binding. You see it with all these Protestants that do church shopping. Right. Like, oh, like, I’m rebelling against my church, like, literally, right? Like, my church doesn’t have authority. And they might be actually right. Right. Like, they might literally don’t have the authority. Like, if your preacher doesn’t have revelation, then like, what is he preaching? So, but if you don’t have a tradition that checks your preacher, right, that I can say, well, this guy is legit or not. Like, so anyway, that’s one thing. And then it’s like, well, what happens if you have a spirit without a head? Yeah, it just floats away. Well, yeah, you get agregores, effectively. You get demons. You literally get demons. And what’s happening in society? Well, like, society is basically Protestantism on steroids. Right? Yeah. Like, that’s what it is. Like, oh, I’ll choose my gods. Right. Like, you can even say that Protestantism on steroids is polytheism. Right. But because they’re picking a convenient god, right, to fill their purpose, which they are not aware of. Right. Or even if they’re aware of it, they don’t have a good relationship to. Because they can’t because they don’t have a relationship to God. So, you see where that leads. Right. It leads into chaos. It leads into absurdity. It leads into the worshiping of the margins. Right. Like, it leads into all of this craziness. And it’s unsustainable. Like, it will break. Like, you see it in all the Protestant churches. Right. Like, they break. Yeah. Okay. And what is the alternative? What does the alternative look like? Like, Well, that would be the Catholic Church. Right. Like, the Catholic Church is a hierarchy, which is in, right, so this is the representation of the authority of Christ on Earth, with every body being part of the body. Right. So, if that works correctly, right, which means that it would be guided by revelation, and not corrupted by power gains and stuff like that, right, then that would manifest Christ’s will on Earth. Right. Like, that would be the vehicle by which we can participate in God’s will, like, necessary, like, by definition, effectively. So, in other words, you basically, the Catholic Church would be the hierarchy of the wisest, most, the wisest and the chosen Christians, who are attuned, the best attuned with the will of God, and therefore have the authority to speak for God on Earth. They’re like the antenna. Yes, but again, right, like, they’re different levels, right. So, like, what it takes to be a bishop is not the same what it takes to be a priest. Right. Like, we’re talking about eyes up and eyes down. And actually, I think Jesus said that, as well, at some point, or at least it’s in the Bible. Right. So, there’s people who have eyes up, who relate to God to the highest, right, which would be prophets. Right. So, they’re responsible for the vision that everybody participates in. And then there’s people who relate to the people, they look down. Right. So, they’re a representation of the Ammonation manifesting in its plurality, right, like, in its specifics. Right. And so, you need both. Right. And so, you need something that all the shepherds unite the shepherds. Right. And that needs to be oriented towards the vision. Right. Which is brought up in some sense separate from the hierarchy. Right. Because these people don’t fit in, the prophets don’t really fit in the hierarchy. Right. In some sense. Right. And so, that’s a dance, right, which can function well if these people are fulfilling their rules properly. Or it can, yeah, it can work not well. Right. But that means that, like, some people would be amazing priests, but they shouldn’t be bishops. Right. Not because they’re not noble enough or whatever. Right. Like, or not holy enough. No, no, no. Because it’s not their calling. Right. Like, they’re not supposed to operate on that level. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I get what you mean. Yeah. And I think politics should work the same. But that’s, like, you can’t do that if you don’t have the church. Right. Like, if you don’t have the spiritual organized properly, then politics cannot be done from a place of submission. Right. And that’s what we see. We see rebels in the politics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To the bottom trying to take control rather than the top. Right. Yeah. So, I’m having this image of this very sophisticated antenna now. I hope I can use that metaphor. And the different levels of the antenna are different people with different callings or different predispositions to different ways of knowing. And when you have that, when you have this on earth, only then can you trust. Because then you have your attunement to God. And that instructs everything lower than that, all the way down to every Christian on earth. And that’s what you call an open system. Right. Basically, they are like prophet-like, not exactly prophets. But they are constantly there to renew the religion, to bring in, to tell you, yeah, yeah, okay. Okay. I see. I see. Yeah. I don’t think it’s an option. Right. Like, if you want to build something that lasts, you have to. Which would mean that it’s in accordance with the will of God. Right. Like, it’s like a tartology. Well, yeah, of course. In the end, God is what keeps everything up together. Right. And also, right, it’s not an option. Right. Like, that’s the other side. It’s like, it’s not an option. Right. And this goes back to the binding. Right. It’s like, okay, yes, I just have to surrender to this. Like, even if it’s corrupt, whatever, like, it’s the only chance. You have no other choice. Right. Even if this church is corrupt, it’s like there is no other alternative. Otherwise, it’s just fall into rebellion and everything falls apart. Right. And that kind of is reflected in the Republic when Socrates actually goes through with his execution. But he goes through for other reasons. So I might say about that. Yeah. Right. But he’s embodying the same spirit. Yeah. He doesn’t want to rebel because if we don’t fall, everything falls apart. Because you don’t. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can’t just, from your position, you can’t rebel because you’d be assuming a top-down position from where you stand. And you can’t do it. Right. And the distinction between Socrates and Jesus is that Jesus united in his death and Socrates didn’t. Right. So I’ve had discussions with Mark about this. I don’t think it was okay of Socrates to drink the hammock. Right. Because now he killed himself. What Jesus did is he didn’t kill himself. He let himself get killed. So the guilt is not on him. But in Socrates, it was important that it was his choice and that the guilt was on him. Yeah. There’s something wrong there. So he was kind of sinful in the sense that he killed his own authority, whereas Jesus just let him have it. Right. Yes, indeed. By making a proclamation, he delegitimized himself, which is really sad. Right? Yeah. It’s really sad what happened there. But the distinction you’re talking about right now, it’s very subtle, by the way. It’s very minute. It’s just like a really small detail, but it’s actually a really, really big detail. Like in one case, he was killed. But in the other case, no, in one case, it’s like he didn’t even have a choice. He was just dragged down. And the other case, like, yeah, let me just walk. Well, no, but Jesus did have a choice. Right. But it was a little different. Like he chose not to defend himself. Right. Like he said, like the way that he defended himself. Maybe I need to read the symposium, but like to contrast that. But the way that he chose to defend himself is that’s what you say. Right. And he did this with a lot of people, right, especially the Pharisees. Like he made them make statements, right. And then obviously what they said was wrong, because like they’re in a bad frame. Right. So they have to be wrong, effectively. And then he trapped them. Right. And then like also like he does the other thing, right. Like he doesn’t name himself. What I have to double check that. He lets himself get named by others a lot, at least. Which is analogous to what I say. Right. Like you should get your nickname from your friends. Right. Like there’s something in being named by the others. Right. Or like who are you is determined by your participation with others. So you can’t self-identify. Like that doesn’t make any sense. Right. Which is what’s wrong with the world nowadays. Right. Like you cannot assign yourself your own identity. You get your identity by participating. And basically what’s being revealed, right, like what is the potential that you can interact with gives you your name. Right. Because that’s who you are. Yeah. The otherness is awarded to you by the outside. You don’t owe it to yourself. You don’t define yourself. You are defined by outside. Yeah. So yeah. So Jesus does this really interesting trick. Right. Maybe I need to read it again. Like that just stood out to me. Right. Like this idea with identity. And like and then sometimes he does get his identity from God as well. Right. Which, yeah, now I need to think about that differently. Anyway, so to go back to truth, I don’t know, can I buy this in truth? Why? Of course you can. I mean, I am already binding it. You want to go ahead? No, no. Like I’m talking too much. You want to go ahead? No, no. Like I’m talking too much. I mean, now here I start getting very, very conflicted. So so now I’m going to start speaking from my understanding of the Islamic framework. My understanding is that you have the system. You have this revelation and you have, of course, the knowledgeable people who have a say in what this is trying to say. The people who know the whole or the people who are familiar with all the parts enough to have a say of representing the whole. And these people tell you what they think God’s commandments are. That gives you the religion. And then you have the saints who are very, very rare people, very rare people who receive revelation. Well, not exactly revelation, because revelation is only for prophets. But these people sort of have a deep understanding of what’s there. And that’s truth. Truth in this case. Okay, scratch all of that. Scratch all of that. I’m just blabbing right now. Just starting to lose track of what I’m trying to say. Okay, so I’m conflicted now between two kinds of truth. One is absolute certainty. The other is revelation, which you’re talking about. And the moments where I’ve experienced what I think is revelation, I was always afraid that I was going to be a prophet. I was always afraid that I was being deceived or I was deceiving myself. So maybe this tells me that I’ve never actually received a revelation because I was always in doubt when I was getting what I was getting, receiving what I was receiving. Well, you didn’t submit, right? So maybe you didn’t fulfill it. Well, no. In these rare moments, I actually was submitting. So I didn’t make a leap of faith. You can’t have fear. In these moments, I did actually jump. I wasn’t afraid anymore. So I made the jump and then suddenly everything was okay. Everything okay. This was worth doing the jump. In these moments, you receive things, but afterwards… I want to take a step back because you said absolute certainty. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. That doesn’t make any sense to me. Yeah, I think this is a problem that I have. It’s very hard for me to firmly accept something unless I have certainty. So either certainty… But what is certainty? That doesn’t make any sense. That word shouldn’t exist. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. This is something I keep telling myself. What are you looking for? Because there’s no such thing. No, but you said you use it, right? So it’s not only that you’re looking for it, right? You seem to know it. It seems to have been revealed to you that certainty is… What is revealing to you certainty and how does that work? Okay, it’s good that you asked that question. So I think when I say certainty, I seem to be talking about… Seem to be unconsciously talking about this compulsive spirit within me. I call it a daemon, not a demon. A daemon. This thing in me that says, okay, look at this. This has a very strong claim and it coheres with X, Y and Z. And it seems terrifying. So go after it. That’s confirmation bias. You think so? Well, like you said it coheres with these things, right? The way that I see it is you have a bunch of values, right? And then there’s something that aligns with those values. Then that’s obviously the way forward. Right. Yeah, I think I’m gonna have to really change my relationship with how I think of these things. Because it’s actually reverberating what you’re telling me right there because it’s giving me a new way of looking at truth right now. Because so far I think I’ve kind of been stuck in this confirmation bias circle, which was negative. And I’ve known that and I think I knew that. I think a part of me knew that because of all of the horrible gut feelings I’ve been having. Are you having a revelation about truth? Now? Yeah. No. Honestly, no, because I’m just reiterating what I’ve already been telling myself a while ago. I wouldn’t call this a revelation. Sorry to disappoint you. So why would you describe this conversation? This conversation? Yeah. You wouldn’t call it a revelation? You wouldn’t call the conversation a revelatory? I’m a bit scared of calling it that. So let me rephrase that. Is there a lot of perspectives that you’ve gained access to that provide intelligibility that is superior to your previous framing? No. There is a way that provides or there is hope of a way that provides new perspective. There is a hope of a different way. Why did you tell me that you should rethink all these things? Because I knew it before and you just confirmed it. I knew before. No, no, no. I did more than that. I don’t believe that’s all. Like are you saying that I didn’t provide you with new information? Of course you provided me with new information in many aspects, but in that regard… No, no, but why are you reciprocally narrowing on one aspect of the conversation? I’m asking you whether this conversation was revelatory and you’re reducing it to one axis. Let me look back at it. Because revelatory for me, I could provide freshness. There were revelatory moments, yes. So it was a revelatory conversation? Yeah. There were revelatory moments. And then you choose to frame it in a frame that is excluding the revelation. The conversation. I don’t think the entire conversation is revelatory. What are you doing? This is word games. Yeah, then it doesn’t matter which part of it we say. No, no, no. It matters. It matters a lot. That’s the most important thing. Because you’re being dismissive. You’re turning away from the potential, the revelation, towards the non-revelation. Why would you do that? Why would you make that move? Because I don’t see it this way. Because I genuinely don’t see it. No, no, you’re scared. You just said that you do see it that way. You just affirmed to me that, yes, there were many revelations in the conversation. That means that you see the conversation as revelatory. Now you’re having the option to describe it as revelatory or not revelatory. And you’re picking a set of values and you’re adhering to those in order to make a decision which of those frames that you privilege. That’s my contention with you. You’re choosing the negative ones. That’s what I’m telling you. You’re turning away from God. You’re turning away from good. You’re turning away from the revelation towards whatever. I don’t even care what that is. It’s bad. Don’t do that. I want more of these moments. Right. I agree. That’s where the goodness of God shines through. That’s where the light meets the fertile ground and can manifest beauty. Yeah. That’s all you need to know. Like, oh, that happened? I want more of that. The only reasoning that you need. All the other stuff is bullshit. You could just throw it away. Yeah, sure. It’s just that… Yeah. That’s a good place to focus on. It’s like a window. And that’s being true. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Being true to God in some sense. If we’re talking about, if we go back to the obligations, what are the principles that we’re supposed to follow? Right? Maybe this has revealed something about the principles that we need to follow. Right? Yeah. And in some sense, taking these things in our own hands, right? Like, it doesn’t mean that you never should take things in your hand, but if you want to take them in your hand, you’re going to end up doing stuff like that for whatever reason. Like, it’s not relevant what the reason is. It’s not a good thing. Right? So just don’t do that. And then, right, like when you stop doing that, reorganization happens. Right? And revelation will follow. Like, that’s just necessarily true. Yeah. It is a natural thing that comes when you put the vacuum there, because essentially, when you empty yourself, there’s a vacuum, so revelation is going to happen. Right? If you’re calling revelation, I’m calling reception. Because for me, revelation is only limited to the Quran. So that’s why. But what are you receiving? This is the problem. You’re saying that there’s a pre-existence out there that you’re receiving. And like, maybe, but also, you don’t know the pre-existence, so if you start trying to get the pre-existence, you’re corrupting it. If you’re the one holding your antenna all the time, right? And then, oh, I should be pointing here. I should be pointing there. I should be pointing there. Yeah. Okay. Like, even if that pointing is true, you’re going to only see part of the elephant, because you’re reciprocally narrowed on that part of the elephant. Right. Like, you have to be. Like, it’s not an option. Yeah. And that’s not good. Yeah. So yeah, I think we need to maybe table it. I think you need to rewatch this conversation. Yeah. From a different perspective, so that you can have some. We need to really, really process this right now. Well, like, there’s lots of revelation happening to me, right? So when you say, I already knew this, right? Like, I said a bunch of things, right? And then I hear myself talk, and I’m like, holy shit, right? Like, I listen to myself, and what the fuck? What am I saying, right? So you have to realize what revelation is, right? Like, because in some sense, I’m, my description of the body, right, allows me to look at the body in a new way, which is like, I’m looking at myself looking at things, getting a new perspective. Yeah. Yeah, well, what does that, like, there’s something there. Maybe that’s the dialectic, right? Like, where I can at least assist myself in the dialectic, right? Where, because, because what, I guess I’m trying to analyze what I’m doing, right? Because I’m, I’m trying to do two things, right? I’m trying to connect to you, right? And I’m trying to be truthful. And then I’m seeing myself doing that. And that allows me to see the perspective that I adopt when I speak to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So I’m gonna speak a bit loosely here. You’re looking back at your own Gestalt. Right. Yes. That’s the revelation. That’s like a self-revelation, revelation of your own self. Self-awareness. Right, which is really, what am I really? Yeah, right. Like, what I’m doing is really dangerous, right? Because if I’m not humble, right, then I will reciprocally narrow into self-awareness. Okay, that was very helpful. That was very helpful. That was very, because I also had a moment of revelation a few months. If that’s what you mean, then I also had a moment of revelation where I was noticing how, how I have projected this role of this is the super wise man now, and I have to do everything he says. And then I’m like, no, wait, wait, just a minute. Distance yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that’s how we learn. It’s like, oh, we can see ourselves, right? Like, oh, because I don’t, I didn’t assign that identity to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That didn’t happen in this conversation. And so you self-identified, and then you engaged with me. And then you thought the identity was coming for me. Yes. Yes. Okay. No, it’s there. Like, I just saw it right there. Like, I see you in a different light for a brief moment. It just flashed, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I don’t know. Like, we should definitely do a follow-up. And I hope that all our listeners can follow this stuff because it was like really hardcore. I really apologize to the listeners for straying off the topic so many times that it’s just a very, very… No, I think what you’re doing is really helpful. Like, I think what you’re doing is you’re exemplifying the struggle. Right. From good faith. And that is… Like, when I speak, I couldn’t have done this without you. Right? So I need to see you struggle to know what I need to tell you. So you need to see the wound in order to heal it, somewhere like that. Right. I like that. I need to see the leg so that I can identify… Well, I’m happy I exemplified the leg. No, no, but like there’s… Okay. So maybe that’s my relationship to beauty. I thought I was going to stop. I’ll just keep going. Okay. So what I see is I see a hole. Right? And then I see a hole in the back of my head. So what I see is I see a hole. Right? And then I see you with a gap. Right? And so you’re not participating in the fullness of the beauty. And then I’m like, what is the ugliness or whatever? Right? The darkness, the shadow that is manifesting the lack. Right? Like, what’s the organ? And then I’m describing what I think fits there. Right? So if that gets placed there, at least it takes enough of the shape that allows you to have a revelation. Right? Yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah. I see what you mean. Because I’m combining the hole. Right? That’s a lot of work, by the way. That requires skill. I mean, what you basically said is that you see me struggle until you notice what’s the half that’s missing. And then because you have some familiarity with the hole that you want to see. I have a knowing of the hole. Right? So that’s why I get like, I receive revelation because I need to relate to the hole in order to figure out where you’re not relating to the hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a sense, my struggle is helping you see that also. Like my darkness is helping you see the line. And then you can inject it right where it’s missing. Yeah. And I think it’s necessary. Like I don’t think I could do it without. Of course. It’s decided in this case. It’s decided. So thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you for having me again. We’re going to have an end to this. Please comment with maybe things that we missed out upon. Like, I don’t see everything. I don’t see all the holes. Right? So maybe there’s something that you can assist me in seeing. Amad can maybe get some different angles of approach that would be useful for him. So yeah, like participation, right? Like when you write your comment, you need to relate to me and to Amad. And that puts you in a different relationship, which is healthy for you because that gives you a chance for revelation as well. Yeah. You want to have some concluding thoughts on the conversation? Yeah. I think I want to relate more to revelation right now, wherever it comes from, especially since sometimes it actually comes from the Quran itself, because it actually has some sources of revelation in there. Oh yeah, definitely. It has to, else it wouldn’t exist. Yeah. And I think I have a healthier relationship to truth right now because I don’t have to keep myself trapped in this cycle of fear just to keep myself together. Because now I know that if I let go, I can trust that if I open up, that God will pull me together. Well, yeah. Within, right? Like only if you’re ready. Of course, of course. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re ready, as much as I’m ready, probably. Right. And if he’s not ready, then I need to know about that. You need to, yeah, you need to trust like the signals that you get, right? And not dive after that beauty. Like if your body says no, then like that beauty is just going to have to pass you by. Like that’s just, is that if you dive after it, it’s addiction, right? Like you’re misguided. Yeah, that’s helpful actually. That I should listen to my body when it says no. Because so far I have been really been mean to my body in this regard, always demonizing it. And I said no so many times and I think I went too fast in this direction. I don’t think I was going in the wrong direction, but I think I went in the direction wrong, if you know what I mean. Yeah, wrong orientation. Wrong orientation. Exactly. Exactly. And I appreciate you and Mark’s help for this, for helping me reorient in the proper direction. Okay, man, like, yeah, let’s plan a follow up and we’ll see everybody next time. Embodying the logos. So yeah, that definitely happened, I hope. Bye. Oh, that’s not the button. Holy cow.