https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=85sPEwuidYM
Hello John Babaki. Hello Jacob, pleasure to be here. Good to have you on. A man possessed by the search for wisdom it seems at times. Yeah that’s very much. Insofar as we are possessed by love, yeah I think so, yes that would be a fair way of putting it. I was watching, so I’ve been following your Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series which is just amazing in terms of breadth, just the amount of books that are channeling through your brain and body. But obviously been a sort of student of the dialogos conversations that you’ve been having this year with people like Jordan and Guy and just Chris and Andrew Taggart and Johannes and the wider network of people. Which by the way just sort of appreciate the way that you’re always kind of giving recognition to all of the people’s work that’s going into what you’re doing. I think that’s important too, I think it’s very important to do. Yeah it’s really, there’s a sense of like when John is articulating John’s point you’re actually getting like a map of the whole sort of terrain of things which have come into it. Yeah and to thank you for saying that and also to give recognition to you know the distributed cognition that’s actually at work and to really, I’m really trying to exemplify even when I’m speaking monologically I want to try to emphasize that deep reason, deep reflection, deep insight, deep questioning are ultimately all dialogical in nature. I’m trying to break, I’m trying to in many ways, in many manner, trying to break out of this you know this monolithic, monistic mind. We have this picture of the mind as this completely self-enclosed, self-discoursing, self-dra, like all of that, that completely self-enclosed understanding of who and what our meaning making is and what the mind is. And this is also like I mentioned in many places you’ve probably seen, this is very much in concert with a movement within cognitive science called 4E cognitive science which is to try and not see the mind as something I possess in my head but something that I participate in between my brain and my body and my embodied brain and the world right and so there’s a deep connection between that model of the mind that is emerging in cognitive science which I think is fundamentally on the right track and the ancient ideas that reason and reflection, insight, aspiration, all these things are inherently dialogical in nature. So not only do I feel there’s a moral point which is significant and important to sharing credit, I want to point to distributed cognition and I want to point to dialogical rationality and try to exemplify them as much as possible so that people can see, not just hear what I’m referring to but they can see it exemplified in how I’m trying to practice it before them. So it’s actually very important to me, it’s right practice for me in a deep sense. It’s part of my spiritual practice to try and do that more and more and more. It seems like it’s a kind of, it’s like a meta relationship that’s being represented that kind of goes up and down all of the levels of the stack of being you know it’s kind of what the relationship with world is dialogic and then within that you know there’s the intertextuality, sorry I’m getting stupid email notification. That’s okay. I have to figure out how to turn those off. It’s in relationship with world and then within self a dialogue between all of the things that are coming from world you know mother and father and philosophers and everything. I think that’s really important. So that affords me an opportunity to balance things out a little bit because for obvious reasons I’ve been emphasizing the what Chris and I, Christopher Massa-Pietro and I call the horizontal aspects of dialectic. Dialectic is the psychotechnology that scaffold you into the process of dialogos. It’s like a set of directions to direct your attention and the way you’re coupling to the world so that dialogos can be afforded. But one of the directions of dialectic is the horizontal, it’s the interpersonal one and that’s the one that I get to practice with Guy and Jordan and Chris and Andrew Sweeney etc. Zach Stein. But what you just mentioned is also right and this was integral to Plato, the platonic model right. There’s also what you might call the vertical, that intra-ontological that you have to sort of practice individually. Stephen Batchelor says we’re always alone with others which I think is the title of one of his books which is a great way of putting it. But this, this, this, as you said this, this, how you meant what Plato does in the Republic where the model of the justice in the city is reflected in the model of the justice between the elements of the psyche and vice versa and they mutually afford and conform to each other. So it’s exactly that. That inner dialogos and that outer dialogos are actually just like the left and right fields of vision that you see through into depth perception. You’re always looking through them you’re always looking through them to what what is what grounds the two of them together and that’s when when that starts to happen that’s when you really get a sense of dialogos. And so part of what I’m going to do in the in the in the next series after Socrates is I’m going to I’m going to talk a lot about the horizontal because you’ve seen a lot of the work I’ve been doing with a lot of people that I owe a lot to but I’ll also be bringing out that vertical and then showing how they’re integrated together. So that I mean that that’s very exciting for me because when those two resonate with each other you get you get you get to a place that is a field of grounding and affording a profound transformation. There are a lot of pathways opening up this as you’re saying all of that things that I’ve been kind of thinking about recently. I mean first and foremost there’s something about the the way in which the the mystic or the or the or the wisdom teacher or the religious prophet very often is speaking in the way that they’re talking about. So I think that speaking in in relationship to the environment very often kind of using metaphors derived from nature or speaking in parable and I think there’s some relationship between this and the the way in which our cognition takes place outside of our bodies in relationship to the aesthetic of the environment. Yeah, I think that’s a very astute observation. There is I think a deep continuity and that’s a phrase that my friend and colleague Evan Thompson has introduced in the four e-cogs on but I think there’s a deep continuity between the ineffable and and enacted mystery of everyday cognition and the ineffable and enacted mystery of some of our most ultimate experiences and I’m working on a book with Daniel Gregg on this called the cognitive continuum from insight to enlightenment that the machinery that you are using I was I mentioned that I was reading I’m reading this book right now by this book right now by Esther Lightcap Meek longing to know it was recommended to me and she’s actually making a very convergent argument. It’s convergent because both she and I are deeply influenced by the work of Michael Polanyi but there’s a deep continuity. I want to use her example because it’s a let me just use it as an analogy. It’s very similar to some of the ones I use but it’s a new one so I don’t have you seen that there’s these called magic eye pictures and there’s a bunch of colored dots and you sort of move the picture you do the zoom in out optimal gripping and then what will happen is it’ll suddenly snap you’ll get this aha you’ll get an insight experience and suddenly you’ll see a three-dimensional dolphin leaping out of the water and it just sort of catches right and she talks about how like you go from looking at you’ll recognize some of this language to looking through you you go from sort of seeing all the dots to seeing the dolphin seeing a deeper dimension and the point is that’s just an extra ordinary example of something we’re doing moment to moment you’re doing it right now you’re taking all the pixels on your screen right and the complicated subtle motions of changes in variance and color and view of my face and you’re making a face and and then you’re looking through that face into my mind and into my thoughts and you’re doing it like that and if I ask you how do you do it how do you get that depth that ontological depth perception you’ll go well I don’t know it’s and it has an aspect of insight and revelation and you have to sort of you know entrust yourself to an embodied process and a skillful way of coupling to the world and then she’s making the argument and she’s a theist that’s why I differ from her but she says that’s similar to how we see God right and and what I think she was meaning is that there’s a deep continuity between our most mystical experiences and our most everyday experience because our everyday experience contains some of that mystery that become more aware of when when it is mystery that’s embedded within an awe experience so I think there is in fact I think what you’re saying there is exactly right I think there it’s not just that the the wisdom teachers or mystics are you know using metaphor I think they’re actually affording a realization of the continuity between your everyday experience and your ultimate experiences I mean this is captured in Zen right they’re very the famous Zen parable you know before I before I did Zen mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers while I was doing Zen mountains aren’t mountains and rivers weren’t rivers and then I was when I was done doing Zen mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers notice I have to use my intonation to convey the difference right and and so it’s very important and I’m sorry I’m talking a while but this is a crucial point this this this sense of deep continuity is an alternative way of relating the transcendent to the imminent that breaks away from sort of the two worlds mythology that has tended to build an inaccessible fortress of mystique around the transcendent and and and and and then make it very easily translatable into the absurd impossible that can just be ignored right but if I make you realize that that ultimate and it is that ultimate is awe-inspiring and it is due of reverence I’m not denying that but if I make you realize that that is has a deep continuity with how you’re seeing my face then you can’t dismiss it or ignore it as an as an absurd impossibility and so I want to try and break out of the two worlds mythology and the one that builds the spiritual as this you know as this thing that is fortified by supernaturalistic mystique and so that’s why I got very excited by what you said because it’s an insight right that points to an alternative way an alternative grammar of thinking about what these teachers have said to us that can perhaps remove it from a two worlds mythology in which it has been entrusted what were you saying john thank you thank you yeah that’s really nice I love just like throwing the piece out and then watching you do a little transformation on it and then it’s kind of more exalted it’s so I’ve been I’m in Athens right now uh I have been for the last three months so I was staying with my parents for quarantine you’re in Athens Greece yes wow that’s a nice place yeah it’s been um probably more positive than a few people’s quarantine difficult at times of course um but one of the things I’ve been doing is spending a lot of time in Greek Orthodox churches um just sort of the church from a different you know yeah my I grew up with the Anglican church but um one of the things you note in there is you know I’m kind of sitting in presence and observing um observing the space and observing the icons and so forth the first thing is you see the difference with the way that the people the Greek cultural relationship with it they don’t really um look around and look up in the way that I’m doing they kind of just shuffle in go straight to the icon at the front and kiss the icon and there’s kind of a very like private um yeah slightly imbued with shame kind of a feeling thing going on um and the the aesthetic of the churches and I’m definitely a sort of believer in the need to build transcendent um environments but it always has this feeling of like just being on the cusp of something but you can’t quite get it you know it’s like beautiful and golden and the eye of Horus is up there somewhere looking out at you but it’s a doorway and a little railing and then behind that maybe a curtain and behind that something else and then you got in the street and then you can actually find the real deal hopefully um and I think when you get closer to the real deal you almost have to afford space for the real deal to reveal itself so I’ve been having you know a lot of my inquiry has really just been paying very close attention to phenomena as they’re arising um and so I’ll kind of see like I’ve started noticing very briefly there’s moments in which something appears in my field um which I later realized is a cyclist but for a moment my brain hasn’t quite figured out what it is yeah first liminal yeah thing and the curious part about that is the quality of what you experience when it’s in the liminal not formed space is very um satin setting really it’s it’s kind of what you are bringing to it as much as anything I just want to build out one more sort of piece for you I was um watching your dialogue with Jordan Peterson from years ago um yeah five years ago but and by the way I wish we could have another I wish we could have another well I think what was really shining out for me was the partly this kind of journey from like the idw to what you’re doing and how what you’re doing is so much more bringing out that like collaborative dialogic and you know like figuring out how to really like achieve intimacy and you know the basic interpersonal stuff is actually happening but with Jordan one of the things that you agreed on was that the meaning crisis um which can be about you know the perennial continual crisis of being but the very specific historical trajectory of meaning crisis has different inflection points and you can go back to World War II you can go back to the time of of Nietzsche you can go back to Descartes you can go back to man’s breakage with the natural world um yeah and so what I’d like to do now is present a piece which has kind of just been in my head and esoteric and see if we can bring it in and it’s a notion of um I’ve called it like the landscape of trauma um and what it is is an inquiry into the nature of trauma which is revealing of a lot of these kind of elements of reality that you speak to the sort of inexplicability of people with past traumas finding themselves finding other people in the world and coming into a relationship with them um neither of them being conscious of it and this kind of being a invisible but meaningful like attractor and force um and the way in which trauma is stored in the body as a as a really embodied um property of being as a kind of disconnection from aspects of self um it seems to me super tied up with embodied cognition and it is Jordan kept on talking about like you know bringing order is like a way of kind of narrowing in the bounds of chaos and for me like it’s I can see a way in which the there’s a landscape of trauma which we are the embodied inheritors of and are coming back into relationship with spirituality and nature is really like going down and into and releasing all of those like like traumas traumas of the 20th century alone are enormous you know I was my grandfather was in the second world war his father was in the first world war before that they lived in under awful Victorian English culture and you know and then we can go all the way back to how is it that they became so alienated from nature in the first place um so yeah I wanted to kind of to hear how you might play with play with that notion well you you throw uh three things that and I don’t think they’re happenstance and it’s interesting how there’s often a gathering of things together beyond sort of our egocentric awareness of how they’re gathered together uh so you you you you you brought up eastern orthodox christianity um and then you talked about sort of the the the liminal place where you can where sense making is you can get a more direct phenomenological awareness of it and how set and setting matter um and then and then you moved into the fact that responding to the meeting crisis and this is something I need to talk more about I’m going to talk more about um and this is you know the work of Levine and others about um dealing with trauma um and both collective and individual trauma and the way in which trauma gets embodied in individuals and the way it gets embedded into social systems um and so why do I think all of those um relate to each other well first of all it’s interesting that neo-platinism actually uh well sort of eastern orthodox Christianity I should put it and the person to talk to about this of course Jonathan Pajot uh Jonathan’s a colleague of mine and we have a very good relationship um I got to meet him once in person and uh I really really respect what he has to say and he’s a he uh he’s very much a proponent of eastern orthodox Christianity but one of the things that’s clear in eastern orthodox Christianity is the way it brings the neo-platonic project that we were talking about earlier the vertical and the horizontal of trying to refine and clarify um intelligibility so as to enhance ontological depth perception and to know do the anagogy do the ascent right but that neo-platonic element which is very present eastern orthodox Christianity has been integrated with aspects of Christianity that have to do with exactly what you’re talking about which have to do with uh trauma salvation ultimately means healing and the healing that’s being dealt with there is the sense that we are in some sense uh broken bent damaged um and that um that is something that has to be addressed in an embodied fashion this is part of the mythology of the incarnation the logos has to be embodied in order to not only bring us the intelligibility of the logos but to confront the trauma that we embody as people and so that’s being brought together in the neo-platonic Christianity the healing the trauma but also the ascent of intelligibility the logos and the healing the logos and the salvation come together in the incarnation which is an ancient word for embodiment right um and then the point that that puts you liminal that puts you into right the the place right the place where the icon actually sits the icon sits and you already referenced it something that’s you can see but it’s just beyond your grasp and that that’s a liminal like the liminality that you’re describing phenomenologically you can see it but you can’t quite see through it you can see it but you can’t quite see what it means and you’re on that space of trying to actively make sense and notice how all these are circling around each other in a very sort of pregnant fashion they’re sort of bouncing off each other and connecting and coupling attracting to each other and affording each other articulating each other but i don’t think that’s coincidence i think that we need to deal deeply with the integration of those three which is the right and think about the the the virtues that are needed for each perhaps as a way of thinking about it so intelligibility requires right the the the practice of the dialectic and right what what that would demand from us but that has at its heart a kind of receptivity to the anomalous to the liminal to the not yet so that i can move beyond where i am and but that receptivity is a mesh is bound up inseparably with dealing in the ways in which i am closed off from receptivity because of trauma and that if i can’t release if i can’t open myself up beyond that michael waspin calls it body armor which i think is a wonderful way of putting it if i can’t if i can’t learn to become aware of it and let it go which is not something you can pretty much it’s not something you can do on your own in an autodidactic fashion you need you need other people in a very sort of profound way which is why of course you also find yourself going into the ecclesia going into the church right or going into the sangha so i think that you’re again it’s interesting how you can i can see a low heraclitus said don’t listen to me but listen to the logos in my speech so through your speech i can i can sense the logos in the way in in how these things are coming together and and what we’re doing hopefully together is realizing how they belong together and what they’re pointing us towards they’re pointing us toward the deep integration between anagoga you know an enhancement of ontological depth perception a courage and a willingness to move into the liminal and the anomalous and relate to it as as something of wonder but that that cannot be undertaken without it is necessarily bound up with the healing of the trauma that blocks our appropriate receptivity and that that is something that has to happen biologically this is again where i think we need something like a religion that’s not a religion and not just an ideology and not just a personal belief system etc etc so yeah that’s how i was able to respond to what you said that’s incredibly astute john very you’ve seen through the roos of my language into what into what sort of is um holding me captive right now um no that’s a poor way to put it but um i was telling you a little bit before that um my you know my big inquiry the piece that i’m sort of most bringing to this um discourse is from an understanding of islam and islam’s relationship to the west but now i find myself almost kind of stepping back a little bit from that inquiry and i’m trying to to figure out the jesus piece um the thing which is you know it’s salient incredibly to to what you’re saying because i grew up in a christian context um imbued with uh real real faith you know the the use of the of the name of jesus was sort of just all over my early childhood and was in a community context until the age of 10 or 11 um so for me a big part of passing it all out has been sort of i think for most people the worst thing about christianity or the christ lineage is christians and the church um and my father was a kind of religious man who spent a long time banging his head against the walls of the um the culture and institutions of the church um so i guess what i’m what what it feels to me is that so much of the christianity that i came from was there was a celebration of arrival it’s like we we are broken and we have arrived but have we yet done the requisite work and drawn upon the vast array of resources available to us in order to enable that now what we’re actually what we’re doing is is really constraining ourselves in very limited bands of thinking uh and i’ve been sort of dialoguing a little bit with some people on various journeys like some are still christians and we’re kind of moving out of it into something else um and this feeling of like the way that they’re like cognitive grammar is constrained by reference to things that they already know and the presupposition that um that the answers are already there um yeah and for me so much of this has been like i took the i mean it’s super resonant with with your path from what i know in the sense that i kind of went atheist went agnostic and then went by a completely different route to arrive at some sense of um a spirituality and relationship to mystery and um contemplative practices and all of this stuff like all of that has occurred for me up until this point without any reference to to christianity really or even the bible or the figure of christ so now with all of that i can kind of go back and i’m reading the last temptation and you know i’ve always had a weird fascination with the experience of churches um and so that’s kind of where i’m at and i think you’re kind of there as well a little bit i very much i mean we have very similar backgrounds i was brought up christian also uh yourself deeply committed in it but also um and i think it’s fair to use this word that’s relevant to what we were just talking about also deeply traumatized by it um and then trying to work out right relationship to christianity is something that i’ve needed to do obviously individually but it’s also resonant with you know the i don’t know quite what this refers to but the west’s relationship the the commonwealth that came out of christenedom right it still has some relationship deep relationship to the cultural cognitive grammar of christianity and trying to work out very quickly um you know even if it’s not traumatizing you know even if the transmission and the discipline is not traumatizing the absence of the working through trauma in relationship to some sort of spiritual framework is in itself the guarantor of the transmission of the trauma of the past because we are almost all of us yeah the descendants of countless wars and um you know awful things that happened in social context where there was no possibility of releasing that trapped uh energy i think that’s well said that the idea that we have built uh many patterns complex patterns of interaction both intra-psychically and interpersonally uh and this is sort of a naturalistic version of karma if you will that sort of permeate and self-perpetuate through us and through our culture and our relationship to each other and our relationship to the environment i mean we are experiencing the trauma you know that we’ve traumatized the environment and it’s now that’s now coming back to us um in a deeply powerful way so i think everything i mean deep in agreement with with your interjection i think it’s very very important i think what’s interesting is if we could put the two of these together oh these that’s not sorry i’m going to propose this um because what what was happening between us a few minutes ago was i see that as very much the heritage from socrates that idea of discourse as a way of reducing drawing out of trying to like like the magic eyes see through and try to realize the logos that’s occurring between us in what you’re saying and possibly in what i’m saying but i direct more attention to what you’re saying um and how that could perhaps be reintegrated with the attempt to come into right relationship with jesus as a sage and christianity as a cultural historical phenomena because i think we’re facing the same thing we have to try and draw out as that’s how i i used to use the word salvage uh but i’m now moving more towards this idea of reducing trying to draw out from christianity uh in a socratic fashion what can be drawn out in a way that is integrated with trying to deal with both the personal and the collective trauma and the legacies of trauma and that’s a very very tricky thing to do because and we can see secular versions of this throughout the culture christianity valorizes the traumatized individual at the center of christianity is the cross which is deep it which is a deep trauma induction device i mean it’s designed to tear and humiliate a person it’s it’s designed you don’t just kill a person on the cross you traumatize them to death right and so christianity can too can too readily valorize the trauma as opposed to responding to the trauma and we can we can we can get into worshiping the victim rather than dealing with trauma and those are not the same thing those are not the same thing those are not the same thing and so trying to do this socratic induction of christianity and break free from the two worlds mythology is also bound up with like really wrestling with the the the difficult relationship that christianity has to follow precisely because it it it valorizes and worships the traumatized individual the victim it can most effectively mask and blind us to actually dealing with trauma because it has us look so deeply at it it’s like it’s like the magic eye picture all we can see is the little picture we’re fascinated and we don’t actually get how we’re supposed to see through it and deal with it and so the thing that’s so close to you that you can’t see it yes yes it’s like nici’s idea of the shadow that you can’t jump over or or what nici in fact said of socrates he said i hate socrates he’s so close to me i’m always fighting him and so that’s this that’s the sort of thing um i don’t hate christianity but christianity is so close to me i’m always fighting it in that in that hopefully respectful and joyful way precisely because um and this is something that’s i mean thank you jacob you’re really taking me to sort of the cutting edge of my own reflection right now so i appreciate that i want to i want to genuinely thank you for that right but but but this is where i’m at right now but really trying to understand right um exactly what you’re saying that you know the the the affordance of anagoga i’ll represent these with like what you did the up and down and then the dealing with trauma they’re inseparably bound together and there and we have a traumatized relationship with christianity but it’s made especially problematic because of the the way trauma is actually valorized in christianity in a symbolic way i’m not saying that’s christianity is masochistic or sadistic i’m not saying that i’m saying there was i think gerard is right there’s a profound understanding there of of our tendencies to scapegoat and project our trauma and all that but it can be so lost because christianity has made this so familiar and like it’s an odd thing that people wear crosses around their necks and they’ve lost how odd this is imagine if someone carried around a chain that had a guillotine on it we’d go whoa what’s wrong with you that’s weird and then say well that’s the relationship of what i hold most that’s a symbol of what i hold most sacred we go oh no but we’ve lost all of that in the cross there’s so many more pieces we’re going to have to talk about again at some point but just to to bring a couple of them to bear i think i think what’s becoming salient to me is like the way of approaching the character of christ or the scripture for me has to be done in the same way as one would approach a work of literature like i don’t think it’s a coincidence we have this great lineage of like literary adaptations of the underlying meaning structures in the story of the rings so forth and this this induces a more interpretive mode of understanding which is and i think the other key component which kind of zach is talking a little bit about and has you know kind of comes a lot out of the kind of psychedelic terrence mckenna lineage for me as well is about the primacy of experience and and that the key one of the key sort of axioms of making community work meaningfully is going to be that the individuals who constitute the community and themselves capable of leaving it going out and being on their own in solitude getting direct relationship to world and then you know coming back in but there has to be that sort of yeah and that’s that’s really speaks to that experience that i was having in the in the orthodox churches it’s like you know because of how much i’ve kind of opened myself up i’m getting a lot more walking down the street and observing day-to-day life than i am inside of the temple the temple is kind of like a big you know some days i quite enjoy it and i find it contemplative but very often it feels like a bit of a trick almost like it’s it’s like not yeah well let’s draw those two things together so tolkien and the recovery theory right and so i think this is very much uh so tolkien had an idea that there’s two types of fantasy there’s escapism which you know and entertainment and whatever right and then he had what he like he called his recovery theory and the idea is very much like what happens with when an anthropologist goes to another culture and has to go through the difficult process of inculturating and then the point is not just to see that other culture that point is very important it’s a biological point it’s not to create a treatise or a monogram the point is you and then when you return to this culture you see your culture of birth from the eyes of the other culture and you see it and you recover it you have an insight into it in a way you didn’t and going into a church should be like that it should be like and i mean this respectfully it should be an enacted fantasy that right makes it possible for you to go out into the street and recover that world more more powerfully i think in that sense religious practice is very much like augmented reality like you know the heads-up display of the pilot or when people are playing pokemon on their phones and it’s getting like we we we create a kind of imaginal pretense but not because it’s false or or entertaining what it does is it actually takes us out of the familiar so that we can recover the familiar with unfamiliar eyes and we can see it more deeply more profoundly i think the point of going to church is exactly what happens when you leave the church not what’s happening in the church i teach my students the exact same thing in meditation right the med don’t think of meditation as a vacation think of an edu think of it as an education in inducing right and and coming out of your your seated practice is an integral part of your practice you’re trying to carry over metaphor metaphor transfer over what you’ve cultivated in your your sitting to your everyday consciousness cognition character and community it’s that recovery that’s the point of it i call this though i sometimes call this the trans world you’re you’re you’re you’re not going you’re not moving between worlds you’re going into like a fantasy in order to more deep and i mean this again powerfully in corbin sense an imaginal thing so that you can more deeply return to this world in its depth and this is the correct understanding of how to relate to the mystical experience i think and also you know bringing in the literary component it’s frodo leaves the shire goes on this epic journey but at some point there’s like the return to the shire but the shire is not the same as before he went on the journey that’s right that’s right that’s right it’s and he’s not the same either but right now we’ve left the shire and now we’re just saying like oh none of that you know the last two thousand years don’t worry about any of that um we’re over it well we have left the shire and we haven’t we’re still in mesh like we were talking about earlier in a lot of ways but yeah i i think if we could i i really think i would really like to put you into contact with paul vanderkley and get you to go on his show and have a discussion with him i think you’d be very interested in having a discussion with you um i’ve been thinking about reaching out to him so that’s right if you’d like to um you know once this video is available i and then i can use it as a link and introduce you to him and i think he’d be very interested in talking to you um jacob i have to go soon um but a couple things i would like to since you’ve recorded this as video i’d like to upload this to my channel as well voices with revaki so if you could send me the files that would be great and secondly i’d like to request to have another discussion with you because i found this one really powerful and i you have a very penetrating mind and i would like to and i mean this again in a complementary fashion i’d like to play with you more about it because i think it’s it’s really um well like i said it’s really inducing i feel very much there’s a lot resonating between us i’d like to explore it more it’s a real honor to to hear those words from you john thank you well well the the honor is yours um unfortunately like i said you have to go and i want to thank you but let’s set up and let’s talk again soon like within two or three weeks possible if you can give me these files from how because i really enjoyed what happened here and i’d like i’d like it to be more widely available to to my listeners i guess that’s who are viewers and then also if i have that link i want to connect you up with paul because i think i think it would be lovely if you had a conversation with them great yeah i’ll get all of that to you and uh it’s really good it feels like we’re just like arriving at something that needs to be opened up yeah that’s also another reason why i’d like to get a copy of this because i want to watch it again and then you and i meet again and try and get back into the momentum of this and try and really explore this because and i meant what i said earlier i really i always try to say what i mean or mean what i mean what i say but um you’re really taking me sort of to the threshold of where i’m thinking right now the threshold the liminal area right and so i’d like i want to get back there again and i i foresee that i need your your help in doing so so i would appreciate that awesome john it’s been great to have you on and be good to have you on again or i’ll be on your channel or something but i’ll work it out and yeah maybe you know let’s get this one up on the voices with revaki and maybe i’ll send you the link next time and then i’ll directly record it and we can upload it there as well that’s a good idea in fact let’s let’s make that our plan of action going forward the more viewers the merrier yeah yeah you i really and you understand of course and i don’t think this is well it’s obviously biasing in some way but i think right now it’s also heuristic that it’s a helpful heuristic there’s a deep similarity between our respective paths that’s very helpful very helpful for getting into the phylia you know that the appropriate kind of intimacy for for dialectic so i i yeah i i look forward to talking to you again right next time we’ll talk about the horrors of christian rock music and yeah okay take good care a great pleasure meeting you great pleasure high five john really