https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=IRJ6hiopyVM
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. It’s been a while, I think, but I hope everybody’s still watching. Today, my guest is Adam. He’s here with us to talk about education. He is still being, well, he’s kind of stopped being educated. He went on to the new level, but he’s a student of history. That’s one of the expertise that he’s been holding in this little corner of the internet. So, yeah, Adam, when we’re talking about education, what are we talking about? Well, I’d say education, I’m just going to pull out the etymology because that seems to be right for me. It’s the bringing up, right? It comes from the Latin, edu cace, right? So, it’s a kind of bringing up towards something higher. I don’t know what. In the past, in the past, I might have said knowledge, but bringing up to something higher that spans one’s entire life. Yeah. So, how would we define higher? Sure. Higher. I’d say that’s like acquiring, yeah, why not? Wisdom. I think that’s at the heart of it or acquiring the tools to relate to wisdom. So, if I interpret wisdom as the ability to have grip, to have grip, would that be, yeah. So, in some sense, educating someone is allowing them to handle something or teaching them how to fish. Yeah. Okay. And then the other aspect of the definition was bringing up, right? So, what would that look like? Well, bringing up would be like, I mean, the most obvious example I have would be like parents, right? People always use the word upbringing, but then they use education and they don’t realize that it’s the same word. And so, when somebody’s talking about their upbringing, it’s like, as you start as a child and you don’t really have much, I mean, you could do stuff, but you need a direction. And there’s a kind of guidance or a bringing that your parents kind of not give you, but put upon you. And that bringing up is kind of bringing you closer to acquiring those tools to relate with wisdom. Right. So, so, for Fakie has this line is to make someone into a person. So, I think that might be, because it’s, yeah, like the problem is like, what are you bringing into, right? Like there’s an implicit telus involved in all of these actions. And in some sense, you have the emergence, right? Like the creativity of the student. And then that has to be guided and pruned in ways so it can take the right shape. So, yeah, like how do you feel that the education relates to you? Like, what does it, like, is that a specific feeling that you have when you’re educated, for example? Yeah, I think it’s something like kind of awe at how little I had before. And even being given, or even having a acquired something like to kind of awe and thankfulness that I can even have that interaction, have that sort of addition, let’s say, or that kind of rate, you know, going higher. And I think the earliest time I can remember that is probably, oh, maybe five or six. My dad was really, he always had a positive attitude towards kind of learning, right? And that was something. And it was never something as much as, you know, oh, here’s a piece of information, or here’s a proposition, like learn it. It’s more like a way of kind of being in the world and relating to it. And that was kind of, yeah. So when you’re talking about awe, there’s an element of self-awareness, right? Because I can imagine that you’re being educated and you’re just dragged along by the teacher, right? Maybe guide is a better word. But you found a way to have an awe relationship. Can you expand a little bit on that? Sure. Because it’s kind of, it’s not so much that the teacher kind of teaches you. I think that’s more, and as I look back on it, there is a distinction between education and schooling, you know, where it’s like I was in school for, you know, up until now, basically up until the last month or so, I’ve been in, let’s say, what people would call full-time education. Really, you know, it’s kind of more like schooling. Education could happen in there, but it’s not, it’s, I don’t even think that’s the purpose of it anymore. And I mean, in relation to that, it’s like, well, well, where are we? What was the question again? Well, I was asking you for your relationship to awe. Awe and education, right. So I have no awe with schooling, not at this point. And that was important in realizing that those two things were distinct. And I was really kind of looking towards education as such, this idea of kind of acquiring, going back to acquiring tools to relate with wisdom is like, that is to be able to acquire that in, like, not in an abstract sense, but like, you know, like with, let’s say, my dad or somebody like that, right, and, you know, being shown a way to do things and realizing, oh, that’s something I can do now. And I don’t have to kind of play around with, necessarily play around with what I’ve done before. That’s, I don’t know, it’s like a new space. It’s that, I don’t know, it’s just great. So if I would phrase it like it’s an increase in agency, right, and then there’s enchantment of the world, right, like there’s a new potential opening up as a consequence of you being able to see the world through the agency, and then having an appreciation for that fact. Yes, yeah. And there came a point where I had to realize that the people who are my teachers, they could help me with education, but actually, to a large degree, they were actually an obstacle. That was something my dad had to sort of, you know, and it was a way in which he was kind of hammering on, like learning, you need to find out new things. And it wasn’t like a moment, it was more spaced out over a couple of years. And, you know, he kind of put across, like, you need to get through this. You need to almost like, you need to bring yourself through this. And so that, you know, and the idea that would be go to college or, you know, basically the idea is you can go and complete your task. And that freed me up because it meant that I had to listen to the teachers, but it wasn’t like I was kind of chained to them. Like it was kind of like, oh, I can do other work outside of out of class. I don’t have to be resentful towards the teacher because they’re kind of pressing down on me. It’s like they’re a human too. Actually, that’s one thing that I noticed during schooling is that there are people, and fair enough, who they had a relationship with the teacher where they really like, they dislike them, they talk about them. It wouldn’t just be that they kind of talk about them poorly, but like you could see that they were kind of trying to put across a kind of like a wrathful… There’s an embitterment. An embitterment, yeah. Whereas I, and it’s not that I never experienced that, but once that, let’s say that kind of moment happened, I could let go of that and realize, you know, this teacher doesn’t have to have everything right. I need to work with them as much as I can to get where I need to go, but if they become an obstacle, I just have to move past them as best I can as well. In terms of how that allows agency, it’s like there are… I know there were guys in my in my classes, for instance, who got so embittered, they never moved on from that. And even though they had the ability, the capability to do well, you know, do whatever, some of them had ideas of doing things that they ended up not following through on because of that embittered relation. And in that context, that’s where I’m kind of like, that’s kind of all, that is quite full of awe because I’m like, wow, that’s a gift that I didn’t necessarily have to have, you know, but it was allowed kind of to, I was allowed to have it because I was led to grasp it because, you know, my relationship with my dad, right, I know there’s around me other family members, but, you know, having that right attitude towards life in general, I suppose, right, the realization there is that even people in authority are humans as well, and you have to deal with that. And it’s not something you can ignore. So what I’m hearing is you got cultivated in some sort of a standard. And you were able to apply that standard in the non-house situation, and therefore it allowed you to create a distance and a space to find self-expression. So yeah, like I want to point back then to the cultivation of the standard, right, so there’s this space that your dad is providing for you. So maybe you can give an example of how that would work. So he would, for instance, ask me questions about just anything, right. One thing that we always talked about was history, or stories. And so that would allow, we talk, you know, maybe about, for instance, Alexander the Great, right. And in retrospect, we went over a lot of the same territory, but in that loop, there was a kind of room for exploration that was like, oh, what happened there? He might, for instance, mention something new in a conversation, and maybe it wasn’t intentionally kind of, I’m going to set this up, but it was more like a, you know, oh, and, you know, it turned out that Alexander, you know, went to Egypt and declared himself pharaoh. So, you know, all those pyramids you see in Egypt, well, Alexander kind of grafted himself on into that kind of space. And it’s like, oh, that reveals a new kind of face to what we’re, this loop that we’re in kind of, you know, or it might be another example would be, this is more recent, electronics. He was very good at electronics. And it’s like, I’ll show you this skill. And maybe you can use that. So, yeah. So, is that like a decontextualized exploration? Is that maybe? Yeah, yeah. Like there’s no purpose to it except the exploration itself? Yeah. And so we just strike up, he’d strike up the conversation with me and I’d be like, hey, great, I can, you know, let’s talk to dad for a bit when he’s, you know, got a break from work or whatever. And it would wander, like it wouldn’t kind of just stay in the same loop. We’d kind of, we could start with Alexander the Great and then move on to like Tolkien. And then we’d talk about stories and like, well, why did this guy do this? And what about that kind of, you know, what about that made him, you know, good or great, maybe not expressed in those terms, but like, why didn’t he do this or whatever? You know, why didn’t, why didn’t, why didn’t Gandalf, you know, let’s say in the Lord of the Rings kind of analogy, why didn’t Gandalf show his powers and show his, destroy the great evil that was Sauron? Why wasn’t that allowed? You know, and, you know, part of that is that it’s not, that’s not part of the plan. The greatness in Gandalf is not that he has all of this power. It’s that he’s guiding people to do the right thing and to achieve their potential. So if I envision this, is this more, oh, look at that. And I’m, oh, look at that. And you’re just running across the field, picking up shiny stones or is it more wrestling? More recently, it’s become more like wrestling. But in the past, when I was, you know, maybe up until now, 17, 18, it was pretty much the same, like, oh, look, you know, look at this. And then, you know, as I got older, I could kind of offer things to him, like, hey, look at this. He’s like, oh, yeah, that’s cool. You know, and, but that was a vehicle to, you know, talk, not just talk about, but also like, yeah, I mean, I mean, to, to get that relation, like to kind of, even to kind of reestablish relation with those tools as well, like, especially if it’s, if you’re talking about stuff that’s going on, like in my life or whatever, and you’ll be like, look, you have to, you know, like, recently, if it were a job, it would be like, look, you got to choose, you know, you got to choose what you want to do here, but you got to follow through on it, sort of thing. And, and, and like, that’s, that’s, that’s much, much separate to stuff that we’ve covered in the past, like that, like the, you know, the, the teachers or whatnot. So now there’s a more like man up attitude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you mentioned other families, right? Like, so did you have an identical relationship or, or is the personality something that’s really important in, in how this manifests? I think so how it relates to, so like my dad’s side of the family, there are a lot of different personalities, but I think you still have that same sort of exploratory conversation. You know, it’s not a, it’s not just like a, obviously more so with my dad, because I’m more like, I’m closer to him, right? So we see each other more often. So the opportunity arises, but the personality will, will kind of determine maybe the boundaries of the exploration, let’s say. And, you know, for instance, with, you know, with my grandmother, it’s, it’s going to be kind of largely again, kind of abstract topics, nothing, nothing very personal at all. But yeah, so. So in some sense, it was a means of communing within your family, like the exploration is, it’s so. Yeah, I’d say. Maybe you want to, you want to go into that a little bit, like, so there’s a level of intimacy there. And I think when you’re mentioning, well, depending on the person that defines the bounds, right? So like, and sometimes the bounds are, are your capacity to be in relation to them. Yeah. Well, I mean, here’s, here’s an interesting one was this, this, it kind of goes like, like this. So I want to know more about, I was at one point, I was interested in family history. And so I went ahead and I was like, well, you know, I got better guess, I suppose I better find out more about, you know, my, my grandfather, well, I mean, I know my grandfather, he’s my great grandfather and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, when, when I’m asking around and I’m doing this kind of same exploratory thing, you know, my, with my dad, it’s like, well, he can’t really give me much information on that. And for whatever, in that case, it was, it was because of his relation with his mother. But, you know, I went to my, my auntie, so his sister, and she was like, Oh, yeah, I mean, I have a family tree somewhere here, you know, and she rolls it out. And then, and it’s like, Oh, that’s kind of, that’s kind of cool. And there’s a whole context set up there where, well, you know, maybe one of my grandfathers was a bit of a bit of a blackguard, a bit of a, you know, he ran off, he was English. And he ran off. He married an Irish woman. And he married an English woman first, and he ran off on the English woman, right. And went to Ireland. And that’s, that’s part of the reason I’m here. So that’s, you know, that’s, that’s a big, yeah, that’s a big piece of information. And it’s like, Whoa, well, that, that actually explains a lot. That’s my need to run. That’s where that’s coming from. Yeah, that’s, that’s it. That’s it. Exactly. And I’m like, wow, that’s, and, and, and, you know, my dad said, Oh, I never got that information from my, from my mother. And I was like, I, I’m not, I’m not going to ask her this. There’s apparently is a lot like kind of hush hush about that sort of stuff. And I look at my mother’s side of the family, and you see actually something kind of not, not exactly the same, but kind of, you know, the skeletons in the closet, and kind of thing. And it’s like, Oh, so, so, you know, for instance, my, my grandmother’s personality is such that she’ll talk about anything, except when it gets close to the really personal, like it’s almost like it’s the really personal, the really intimate stuff. That’s far off. We don’t care about that. You know, let’s talk about, you know, oh, you need to get a job or, you know, your little cousin, he needs to go and, you know, he needs to go and go to college, you know, instead of doing a trade or something like that. Right. So, so when I’m hearing that, like there’s an opportunity for intimacy, but apparently it’s also a means of avoiding intimacy as well. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that I think so. Because it’s, if you think about that, and if you take the same kind of pattern of exploration, I don’t have that with my mother’s side of the family so much, like we don’t engage in that sort of idea of, you know, oh, look here, here’s your son. Cool. You know, it’s more, it’s more like, you know, how are you doing? And, you know, how are you doing? How is your friend getting along that sort of stuff? And, but then also like, and that’s, that’s, it doesn’t matter whether they’re men or women. It’s like, that’s, that’s the kind of relation even with my male uncle on my mother’s side. It’s like, it’s more on that front. It’s, it is more like kind of, not upfront, but like less, less abstract, less, less kind of, let’s go explore over there and be like, how are you doing? You know, do you need help? Do you need help with this? And kind of checking in on checking in on the, the everyday stuff. So do you, do you feel that there’s a, like an exclusionary element with, with exploration that like it can only be pointed outward? Largely, largely, yes. Except that the only exception would be with my, with my dad. But again, you don’t, you don’t get that intensely personal. It’s like, you’ll be talking about the personal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it would be like, you know, oh, but you got to do this, you know, that’s just, or, you know, some people are just like this, you know, rather than sort of saying like, well, you know, my dad was this sort of guy, this sort of man. And, you know, maybe you’d never get anything like that. And, and I think that’s, that’s the only thing that I And, you know, maybe you’d never get anything like that. And, and if you do, if you do get near that, it’s going to be like, yeah, it’s going to be tense. And there’s going to be a tension around that. Okay. So let’s, let’s hope back. So you’re, you’re in school and you’re, you’re slowly discovering that you’re in a relationship to your teacher and that they’re not divine beings, but actually mere humans. So yeah, how does, how does that shape you? Like, what changes does that provoke in you? Well, how that plays out is, is, well, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a case that I’m not too bothered by people in authority, kind of not being excessively competent, or maybe not competent, but like, you know, it’s just, you, it affords a kind of personal relationship with those people that maybe, you know, you don’t talk to them, but you also don’t, you know, for instance, leave the classroom and be like that person, you know, that’s, you know, kind of an image of that person. It’s like, no, that, that, that’s a person that they have to go home today. They might have a bad day. And afterwards that kind of, it helped me to deal with some of the disappointments that I might’ve had with schooling, which at that, even during that period, I kind of still confused it with education. Actually, there came a point in college where first year, actually, it was kind of, the idea was, oh, once you get past kind of secondary school, and that’s the impression that I had was, okay, that’s when I start to kind of pursue almost an academic career, right? This is the kind of, oh, this is where the education is going to flourish, right? And I found out, actually, that’s not, that wasn’t what was going to happen at all. At least not in the way that I had expected. And so I got into college and it was like, you know, there were a lot of people, there are a lot of, in Ireland, there are a lot of people who go to college. I think like 40% of the Irish population has a third level degree or higher. And I was kind of struck by the slowness of the kind of progression through these different topics. I did a degree in physics, so kind of we were going through stuff that we already went through before and it’s like, well, what’s the deal? And I, you know, I had to ask, and also I was introduced to a completely different way of kind of dealing with other students, because we had to kind of talk about the problem, we had to work through it. It wasn’t just something that you kind of go off on, you know, and then you go off and do on your own. So it was kind of a different sort of task. And that threw me for a loop for a bit. During that whole interaction, I realized that there’s a difference, there’s a difference between kind of education and schooling, because they were kind of putting up obstructions, they were putting up the same kind of obstructions. And the obstructions weren’t going away, basically, you know, in school, it’s like the obstructions are going to happen, well, that’s going to happen, it’s a secondary school, right? But once I get to college or whatever, it’s like, most of these obstructions are going to be gone, and I can just kind of do, I can look into whatever I like. And that’s not what happened. And that threw me for a loop. But what it allowed me to do was realize, okay, these guys who are these, you know, these lecturers, these teachers, they’re here to get their jobs. I’m in a schooling scenario here, I need to move on. I need to move on and kind of get what I need out of this now, you know, I’m in a new, I’ve found a new space. Let’s move on. And what I did from that actually was I left, I transferred to a different college, and seeing, leaving the opportunity open for, hey, well, maybe this college will be better, maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the hill. But if it isn’t, you know, whatever, I’ll make it work. I’ll overcome the kind of obstacle. And yeah. So that was, that helped because it allowed me to move on without any sort of embitterment. But it also helped me to detach sufficiently from the kind of intense emotion that I was experiencing because of that, that, let’s say that distinction, that contrast that I wasn’t seeing between, you know, let’s say what I’m calling now education and schooling, right? So that the upbringing, the kind of, as opposed to the sort of, you know, just go through, do the motions, get your exams done. Because I think if I hadn’t been in that scenario, if I didn’t, if I was looking at the lectures as these sort of kind of divine beings who could do no wrong, I have no idea where I’d be right now. You know, probably in a PhD position, hating my life. So you mentioned the introduction of cooperation in the educational process. So did that change anything for you? Like, was that a thing that you could end up using for your own benefit? Yes, because I saw beyond, you know, let’s say all the information I had, the knowledge, let’s say all the knowledge I had, wasn’t necessarily just for me. And that maybe other people could benefit from that. In fact, it was in that same year that there was a man who’s about mid 30s, I think he’d come back to college, and he didn’t know much in the way of mathematics, he was kind of out of practice. And, you know, for me, it was going very slow, the kind of progression through the different methods that they’re going to teach you to solve all of these equations. But for him, it was like really fast. You know, like he was, you didn’t see much of it, but you realize like he was once the classes ended, he was going off and trying to and catch up with some like, you know, tricks that we could do tricks, like it’d be a trick for me. And for him, it would take, you know, maybe an hour or two just to understand what’s going on. And, you know, there were times where I just set aside the time and explain one of those tricks, usually, you know, I’d share kind of the knowledge and be like, look, this is how this works. And here’s why it works. And that was that that knowledge was there because I I applied my, you know, I didn’t get embittered by the teachers all the way back in school, you know, and I kind of learned those principles, that knowledge, and I passed on to him, came up to me afterwards and was like, dude, I really appreciate you doing that. And so that offset the sort of the frustration that I had with the other the other kind of the negative experience that I had with cooperation in the rest of that that year, because and the negative experience came from basically poor like wrong expectations, basically, because we had to work in groups and I felt like I was being slowed down by them by these other guys. But in reality, it’s like, and he actually helped me out later on because he applied for a job in the college over the summer. And he mentioned that to me and he’s like, that opened up a space for me to be like, Whoa, that’s something I could do. That’s I might look into that. I ended up transferring, but I did the same thing over and over and over again. I might look into that. I ended up transferring, but I did the same thing over over in the other college. And I that actually paved the way to my internship and trying to do a research masters. So the cooperation kind of opened my eyes to the ability to give knowledge to others or to help help people attain knowledge. And then also to gain knowledge, maybe experience myself. Yeah. So it’s like a different domain, right? Like you’re participating in a different domain. And in some sense, it’s more being a person domain than being a consumer of information. Yeah. And so it seems like you found out that the teachers are humans and fallible beings. And then it took you a while to figure out that students are also. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a time where I was dangerously close to getting embittered by the students rather than the teachers. It never got that far, thank God. But that experience made sure that that experience in first year college made sure that that was less likely to happen. I’m not going to say it’s never going to happen. There’s always more room for for for embitterment just because I’m silly. I’m a human. So have you been able to to expand that inside outside of the schooling system or are you still working on that? Well, I’m going to be honest, I’m still working on that. I think I’ve got it down so I can I can say for my parish, but sometimes not sometimes not. You know, sometimes I see the folk group and the guitars and stuff like you really got to practice just kind of letting things go here. So, yeah, like, let’s dig a little bit into this this bit of bitterment, right? So there’s like, is that a sense of perfectionism that’s driving that? It’s like. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, as I look back on when I was younger, I was very much it wasn’t just that I was detail oriented, like I had to get it right first try. And if I didn’t, that would frustrate me. And that’s that’s an insight that didn’t actually come from me. It came from my mother watching me and then telling me, Adam, you really like to get things right on the first try. And that’s that’s like, that’s an insight that’s only really kind of that that I’ve gained on myself. You know, the past few years, like maybe the past three or four years. Does that connect to not being able to lose games or is that just a projection? Well, that definitely would have would have come into come into that was definitely a worse problem when I was younger. Yeah. When I was much younger, I’d I’d I’d get angry. I’ve since learned to distance myself from video games and realize that I’ve got other better things to be doing. So so in some sense, you you have have a problem living in faith, right? Like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s I mean, I for all that time, I was an atheist, like a convinced atheist from like the age of 12, let’s say, on to 20, two years ago. It was like, I it wasn’t it wasn’t like, oh, I, you know, I went to church and, you know, I just kind of fell away. Like, I never went to church like I got baptized, I got first Holy Communion and then and then so I was probably I was in a church about three times a week. And I was like, I’m not going to go to church. I’m not going to go to church. And then and then so I was probably I was in a church about three times in my life apart from like except funerals, right, which you just kind of have to be in the church. And I was never happy about it. So I really thought like, I thought that I knew the answer like, no, no, on the on the God question, like I have the answer for that. And the answer is negative. He doesn’t exist. And so yeah, there’s definitely that’s something I struggle with. And it’s a struggle that’s only really kind of come to my attention the past like year or two, you know, and how is it that I can just kind of trust. And that’s how I view it as well. It’s like, faith is is is trust. And in terms of trusting people is that’s and trusting in, you know, just things for work to work out. I’d say that that’s well, I would common denominator. I would argue that trust is the materialist side of faith. Okay, because because trust is in things that are seen, right? Like, yes. There’s a reliability aspect to to the trust while faith is relating to the unknown, right? Like you? Yeah, I can I can trust I can trust that I don’t know my calculator is going to work because that’s all it’s a you know, it’ll be all in my hand. It’s all in the circuitry. Yeah. But yeah, faith is yeah, unseen. I get that. So, so you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re in some sense, like, using using this as a as a as a mirror for your personal development, which I guess is normal, because like you spend a lot of time in school. Too much too much in retrospect. And then, right, like you said, you were talking to this guy, and you were showing him the tricks, right? So in some sense, the student becomes the teacher, right? So you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re in this phase where, where you’re slowly getting a grip on on the other side of the coin. So does that change your perspective on what education is? I think. No. And the reason why is because I was really just passing on knowledge. I, you know, in terms of education, the closest I’ve ever come consciously that I knew know of was taking out my little cousin to get some nice clothes. Because I knew when I was when I was maybe 15, 16 or 17, I never like I’d, I’d wear this. And I’d wear that anywhere. And, you know, in retrospect, I kind of I thought, and especially with the Christian stuff, they’re like, all right, you got to take your body seriously, like your body’s a non, you can’t ignore that. And that’s actually an important part of you. And I’m like, Okay, all right. And you’re made in the image of God. And I’m like, Okay, all right. Well, that’s, you know, so maybe I should care about how I dress, maybe not too much, because, you know, you’re just looking at yourself all the time. But enough. And so I look back on how I was at his age at 15. And I think, hey, if I wanted to try and put across the impression that your body actually is something that is important, maybe I can help them out. And so I said, Well, maybe somebody could have brought me out at that stage, and said, Hey, we’ll get you a shirt, a tie, and some trousers. And it wasn’t something wasn’t something I would have been used to. But I one day he was coming up for coming up to my house for the for the day. And I went on a bus going on, got him a bus pass, we went into town, and spent the day doing that. And I was at that point, I saw myself reflected on me. And I was like, I have a lot more sympathy for my mother. Whenever she was kind of, I hated shopping for clothes. But, you know, she was in retrospect, she was doing exactly what she needed to do. At that time. Yeah, that like, that’s one of the points that I submit to my mom completely. It’s like, okay, like, I’m, I don’t want to deal with this. Like, I’ll listen. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it’s exactly it. Please help. Please help. I can’t you know, sizes. I don’t know what size I am, you know, and now I know I even know my collar size now, you know, and put I still need her. I mean, when I got my first suit, she was there. So, you know, making sure that I looked all right. So, so it’s, it’s still really ineffable in some sense, what education is, and how to participate in it. So, yeah, it’s really intuitive. And then sometimes you’re, you’re in a situation, you’re like, oh, this, this is it. Like, yeah, yeah, I thought, I thought, look, I’ll make the effort. And then I realized on the other side, it’s like, and I only got a couple of days ago, we were sent a picture of him. He went to a job and he was going to job interviews. Right. And and he wore all the clothes that I got him that day. Hey, yes, yes, yes. You know, that’s something that he mightn’t he mightn’t appreciate now. But like, hey, it’s nice that he could do that. No, and this is maybe like a secondary way. Right. So first, you get your agency, and you see the world through your agency right now. You see an extension of your agency and someone else manifesting. Yes. Yeah. That’s a whole new kind of worms. It is because it’s because of that distance. Right. So it’s not like it’s kind of the control is completely apart from me. It’s like, I just, I just have to, that’s, that’s when the faith comes in. That’s when I’m like, all right. Yeah. You know, I, there’s stuff I’m not seeing that I’m like, you know, that I was using the agency that he has there now, you know. So, and I think definitely don’t, I don’t have enough experience of that. But I’m sure that’ll come in time as well. Well, and the horrific aspect that that’s always true. Right. Like, yeah. It’s like, oh, like my agency is spinning off and someone somewhere. And I don’t know what it’s doing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think about, okay, well, then what going back to when I was in, you know, my teenage years, it’s like, there were people who probably recognize that who were trying to help me out and given me that agency. It’s like, was I looking out for that? You know, was I, was I using that sort of properly or whatever? And, you know, you’re not going to use it all the way that they wanted to or whatever, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True. Throughout all time throughout it’s going to be true throughout my life, but also the lives of others who, who influenced that out and up. Yeah. So, man, I lost it. There’s an element where, where you can take responsibility for, for what you’re, what you’re giving others. Right. And, and, and also, also in the receiving of it, right. Because like now, now you have this awareness, right. And like, there’s, there’s a way in which that allows you to change your relationship to education, right. Because now you kind of know, okay, like it’s an extension of their agency, right. So like, like I can look at someone else’s as that they’re informing me and, and then that I can express or channel that in, into, into my participation. So, so have you, have you thought about it like that? Like is that a thing that’s on your mind? That, yeah, that their, that their response will inform, form, inform how, how that I relate back to them. Yeah. I think so. I think that’s, that’s, that’s a good way of thinking about it. Because that’s, that’s how it would have unfolded for, for my parents with me. Most, most definitely. I mean, I definitely gave them a lot of, a lot of, well, responses. I definitely gave them a lot of, maybe not information, but signaling back to them. Okay. But do you think that that’s the thing that you could use, right? Like this perspective of, of extension of agency and, because, because my mind is, is, is going to, to surrendering, right. It’s like, okay, like I am here, get up with you to surrender to what you have for me so that I can, right. And if I, if I’m going to relate that to school, right, like, like I, I think the issue that I have always had with school is, is that there was no application of, of what I learned at school. Like it was just the test at the end of the course. Yeah. So there was, there was no way of channeling it, right. And therefore there was also no way of justifying my participation in that. Yeah, no. And that’s the, I mean, that’s the thing with schooling is that, I mean, in terms of agency, like you’re, you’re just, you’re limited by space and, you know, they’re going to have you in a classroom, they’re going to sit you down and you just kind of got to passively take it in. There’s no kind of, there’s, there is no agent, there’s no active agency there, you know, except in sports maybe, right. But yeah. And that’s the thing. That’s, that’s the thing about going back to the teachers, right. What my dad was highlighting to me was you have the agency, you have, you, you, you can choose how to interact, how to relate to the teacher so that you don’t get embittered. And that’s, that’s how he was using his agent, like his agency, just kind of, you know, here’s some information. And that, yeah, that’s, that’s, I see how that works. I see how that’s a good framing. And he could only, yeah, he could only do that because he’s like, look, I’m, I gotta, I gotta let this, let this just kind of roll. I’ll give you information, see what you do with it. Maybe, you know, see what, see what you reflect back to me. Because he’s definitely, I think we, he’s learned, I’m sure if I asked him, he’ll say that he learned a lot in educating me. Right, right, right. That’s kind of like the step that I, that I want to go to, right. It’s like, like, because, because there’s this reciprocal process, right. It’s like, okay, like if I’m on this side of the coin, like I’m, I’m only dealing with things being given to me, right. And if I see how things are given, then I know what it means to receive, right. And now you can, you can lift the step up, right. It’s like, okay, like, so there’s, there’s a relationship between giving and receiving, you know, I can optimize for, for that thing. And like, this, this is the thing I’ve always been looking for, right. It’s like, like, I don’t, I don’t care about this stuff here. I could care about the stuff up there. But yeah, you’ve, you’ve not, you’ve not delved into that, but you’ve been helping out in, in the Bible study, right. So that, like, is that, is that a thing that also qualifies as education? Yes. Yeah. Well, it helped me, it helped me to put that in the context of kind of relating to other Christians. So why is it important that they’re Christian? Because they, they make a big deal about being Christian. And apparently they’re convinced that I’m one. I’m, you know, I’m kind of on board, but at the same time, I’m a little bit suspicious, you know, that, that kind of framing. And, and so, you know, when they’re talking, I mean, it was a good opportunity to learn a bit of Christianese, but it was also a good opportunity to come to a common subject. I knew nothing about it. I had no knowledge, basically no knowledge on the subject. Like it was really kind of a sparse and tangential, whereas these guys were like, you know, they were talking about, and they were kind of inviting out, like, what do you think? What do you think? But there was an education in there, in terms of, in terms of how to, there’s a missionary there actually. And he was, he was obviously kind of trying to bring you through the Bible and trying to give you some sort of foundation for the story. And so, you know, and kind of jumping between bits of it and whatever. And then he’s like, and how does this relate to how we’re going to go and practice the Christian life or whatever? You know, I’m seeing them at mass every day and we’ll pray and we pray together as well. So the Bible study is initiated with prayer and then finished with prayer. And so, so that was, that helped to, that helped me relate to people who were praying, I suppose. But then there was me coming in from the, from this little corner of the internet. And there were times when I said stuff and they were like, what are you talking about? We’ve never heard this before. Like there was a time when it was like, what was it? I think I said, I said the Peugeot thing of like, and I, like this is true. It’s like, I go to church to deal with the people I don’t want to have to deal with. And they were like, they were like, what? Is he allowed to say that? I don’t think there were that, you know, that, that flabbergast, but they weren’t expecting it. Because I think they were just used to dealing with students who didn’t know much and were just kind of, kind of in a similar kind of it, in a similar kind of scenario where I was in, in, in school with, with, when I was on a teenager, right, just kind of passively receiving. And so I guess through that, I kind of, inadvertently, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, there was no intention behind this at all. I was sort of inadvertently kind of giving them something, but what they gave me in return was, was a way to, I mean, some way to relate to Christianese, but it was also just to people to talk to who weren’t, you know, friends from school and who, you know, had their own lives going on. So, yeah, you said something that I can’t let go is like dealing with people who pray. Yeah. Okay. What does that mean? Yeah. Okay. What does that mean? Well, they, they, you know, they, they go in and they kind of do their, they kind of pray off the cuff. And I wasn’t expecting that because the only, the only exposure I had was kind of the very formal stuff, you know, your sign of the cross and stuff like that. And I guess, I guess it’s, it helped me to relate to people who, who were trying to, to relate to God and me seeing how they were expressing that. Because is there education in there? Probably more than I’m willing to allow. Probably a lot more than I’m willing to allow. What’s the attitude that I have to see you sitting there? Like, are you like observing as a skeptical observer? Like, oh, now they’re doing this. No, no, it’s more, it’s more like, it’s more like, okay, we do this. And then, and then, and then, you know, like I’m doing the sign of the cross and then, and then they just start talking. And I’m like, no, you’re like, you just like recite a prayer or something. I don’t know. Like the way I got it all, this is recite the our father. So it was like, you know, and, and it’s not that there was no thinking behind it when I’m doing it. Like I try and actually think about what’s what I’m asking, but they’re just kind of, they’re, they’re, let’s say relating to God in a completely different way. That is kind of, you know, I, I, I’m only start, I’m only really starting to consciously do this and, and they’re doing it differently. And I’m like, well, what, what, what do I do with that? So I guess, I guess I’m a little bit suspicious. But what are you doing with it? Like, how are you processing this? Because like you seem to avoid drawing implications. Yeah. Well, I, I just, I just don’t, about like, cause I don’t, I honestly, I don’t know how to, how to deal with it. It’s like, he’s praying differently or whatever. You know, what next? Isn’t that true in, in like, like your profession as well, that people use different methods to achieve similar aims? Yeah. But apparently we’re all in one body. And so it’s like, okay, how does that work? What? Well, yeah, but like when you make a glass, right? Like it can get into the same house as the glass, but it can be made in the same factory, right? Like, like, yeah, these things exist in, in different areas as well. So I’m just, I’m just wondering why you’re making the distinction. Like, um, well, I guess it’s just the kind of retroactive distinction. Like it’s, they were people who, I mean, I do pray maybe not as often as I should. Um, but those were guys who were active. The point being was they were act, they were actively practicing something. All of the people, like anyone else who might kind of nominally say, Oh, you know, I’m a Christian, I never saw, I never saw them pray. And at mass, you know, if you’re all gathered together, you are all praying, but it’s very like, you know, it’s kind of firstly, there’s no silence in the church. So it’s like, how are you even supposed to, you know, it’s kind of a bit of a, it’s a bit of a show, you know? So I’m like, well, is, is, is, is that show an actual show or is that in your head? No, I mean, if you look around, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, you would, you would be forgiven for mistaking it for, for, for a stage. Like, is this, is this everyone pointing in the same direction for a day? Like, not really. You know, they’re all doing other stuff and they don’t, you know, it’s, it’s, that’s very strange to me as well. It’s like, okay, so we’re all, so how’s that different than people in your classroom, like other students? Well, they’re well, I mean, in the classroom, they’re not trying to relate to God, I guess, they’re trying to relate to whatever the subject matter subject is, right? I like, like the subject has a sacred status within, within that institution, right? Yeah. So, I got, I got, to me, it’s the same pattern, right? I’m like, like, yes, and all these students, they’re doing crazy stuff, but like, they’re still wanting to get their exam. Right? Yeah. So, yeah, like, I just want to, I don’t want to linger too long on it, but like, you’re making a distinction and I’m trying to find the basis of it, which you’re making the distinction. Well, yeah, I, is it just the sacredness? Like, is this the perfectionism sneaking back in? Yeah. Well, look, look, I mean, I think there’s, I do, if I had to, if I had to choose how mass or was celebrated or something like that, it would be, let’s say, the outward expression of, it would be a more perfectionist, let’s say, form of it. But yeah. And so, in that regard, let’s do the thought experiment. Right? Okay. So, you’re now the educator of how people should pray. What are we doing? Well, with, I mean, you know, it, like, we want to start at the basics, right? Like, like, like, I don’t want the job. I don’t want the job. Like, I know I’m not, I know I’m not qualified. I come, I come, they’re half-drowning still from the last night. I go back to sleezing dressily. Like, I just love it. Well, you know, it’s like, with the church stuff, it’s like, it’s not my decision. But, and, you know, I, I might prefer it to be one way or the other. No, but I’m trying, I’m trying to get back to this concept of education, right? Like, so, like, you’re half-responsible ability for education, right? And, like, I don’t want to keep it in church because I think the church is secondary, for example, right? But it’s more like, okay, like, but it’s important because the church in some sense, highly personal, right? Like, like, like the way that you relate to the ineffable nature, right? Is, is unique to you, right? But still, now you’re having the responsibility to have the one body, right? Like, to have this unified way of unifying uniqueness. So, so how do you do that? Well, I just appeal to, let’s say, traditional forms, right? The stuff that’s lasted the longest and say, hey, try this and let this form you. Because, you know, as it, and I’d say the same for education as well. It’s like, you aren’t, you aren’t really going to get much out of, and out of, how should I say it? You’re not going to get much out of just kind of doing what you think is, is, is right in the moment, or not even right in the moment, but just doing whatever you want. There has to be some structure to it. And if you don’t have that structure, and if you don’t have a structure that’s lasted long, it’s like, well, how are you going to ever sustain that relationship to, to the ineffable, to God, right? And this is the funny thing is that, and this is why I don’t really get, I don’t get too upset about it. Because it’s like, look, this is, this is just, this is the way things are at the moment. Like, if I had a preference for a form of worship, or if I had a preference for a form of education, right, I would, I would, I would prefer that over the other ones. Like the old, let’s say traditional, the, the, let’s say, the, the one that’s worked that I didn’t make up, but was, let’s say, given to me, some, in some sense, kind of given to me. It’s like, I’d like to pass that on. Yeah. So, so in some sense, you want to effectively outsource it, and you want to take as little responsibility as possible and put the responsibility on the past and the tradition? Um, yeah, pretty much. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll double down on that. I mean, that, I mean, in the case of education, right, if I were doing that for education, I guess I’d be, I guess I’d be putting forward a system which is kind of decaying, and I’d just be accelerating the decay. But, you know what, some, some institutions have to fall. Sometimes you have to just, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like Alaric and the Goths. Sometimes you just have to burn down the, the kind of, the, the, the kind of excessive rubble, basically, the excessive building of, of past. Well, there’s some fatalism in there. Yeah, probably. So, so there’s, there’s no place for your personal skills and, and, and your, your capacity to make a personal connection to influence how you educate. Like, you don’t see that. I, I think I, no, I mean, I do, I do. They’re, because, because you have to, you have to engage with the person on, on where, where they’re at to try and bring them forward. Like, I mean, for instance, for my cousin, I didn’t, I didn’t bring him out to get him a suit or whatever. And then, you know, say, and this is why, and this is why you’re dressing this way, young man. Like, I might, I might talk to him about, yeah, like I might talk to him about that. Maybe when he’s my age now, like, you know, it made me when he’s 22, right. And he’s like, hey, Adam, you know, why’d you get me that, those clothes or something like that? It’s like, well, you know, and, or I might mention it to him and be like, Hey, by the way, but yeah, there’s, there’s, you have to meet them where they’re at. I mean, that’s the same with some of my other little cousins. It’s like, I can’t, I can’t make them interested in maths. I can’t kind of make them interested in and the stuff that I’m interested in, for instance, right. That, that was kind of passed on to me. But I can just say, Hey, I mean, I can mention it and then see what they do with it. Mm hmm. So, so do you, do you have some identifiable strengths that you, you could apply in education? I’d say, well, I mean, I don’t know how much intellect has to do with it. And I think I’ve, I’ve, I’ve a reasonably strong intellect in terms of, you know, being able to acquire knowledge or whatever. In terms of wisdom, I probably don’t have much. No, I don’t really. I mean, but you know, what, what strengths could I have? Abstraction. Abstraction. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, I can give you another one, right? Like you, you got, you got a historical contextualization. Yeah. Well, sometimes when you proffer that people don’t like it. Well, yeah, yeah. Most times they don’t. Well, you, you got, you got to get better at the storytelling. I suppose. Yeah. But that’s how I learned. So, so I guess I want to go back to, to the question, right? Like if you want to have an educational course, right. And well, maybe we want to wrap up first, right? So, are, are we at the present or are there any like developments that we still should touch on that we’ve missed? No, I mean, at the moment I’m, I’m, I’m basically looking for a job at the moment. So, when I get the job, when I get a job, outside of, outside of, let’s say formal schooling, for any, you know, for any decent period of time, that’ll, I know that’s going to be an education. I know, I know there’s going to be some, there’s going to be some reforming on my part needed just because of the time I’ve spent in schooling. And, you know, I mean, like I have an idea of, I have an idea of how kind of working in a, in a, in a day-to-day job where you’re getting paid for a wage works. But it’s only an idea. I’m going to find out. I’m going to get the experience and the participation pretty soon. Do you have a sense of what’s needing to be reformed? Probably, probably, probably the way in which I, I relate to the daily routine of how to, of getting things done. Because as things towards the end of schooling, towards the end of being in college, there was, there was basically no structure and it was only the structure that I imposed. And there were, there were indications that the structure that I imposed wasn’t sufficient to, to, to meet the requirements. How diplomatic of you. Yeah. Yeah. And that required course correction. And whether, whether it was a fault on my part or, or others, but probably, I mean, like I, whatever I did on my part, it led to me being like, well, I’m in a situation now where things are, things are progressed beyond a salvage, a salvageable kind of circumstance where I could move on and do well, whether that was in, in there from the start, whether I helped to bring that to being. I don’t, I don’t quite, I’m not quite comfortable saying yet, but I think at the, but I think when I get the job, I will find out. You’re going to find out many things. So yeah, you’re obviously going to have to be educated in your job. Do you, do you plan on having education being part of what you’re doing in your job? Like active aspect. Would you like that? Yes. Yes. I think it’s, and especially in the form of let’s say teacher, because if I, I would, I would like to get married at some point. And if I do, and I have children, I’ll have to, I’ll have to do the same that my dad did for me. And not the exact same, but you know, the same sort of pattern of like, Hey, you know, I got to kind of draw that stuff out and not, not that this is what’s going to happen, but I’d like to have more kids than my, my, my dad had a lot more as many as my great grandmother who had 14. So, but that’s, that’s all I want. I want, but let’s see how this plays out. You know, so, so, so in some sense, you say like, you want to prepare yourself for being a dad and you want to use your work as a means to develop that capacity. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let’s, let’s, let’s hope like five years into the future, right? Like you, you get to do everything you want perfectly. Right. Like you, you run up like when you’re in, you race to the position in your job that you want to be, right. You start cultivating this educational stuff. So what are you going to do? Are you going to dive into the tradition and, and find a way to revive what was there? Or are you, are you going to dive in into yourself and, and find a way to be a vessel or are you, are you trying to do both and merge them in, in some way? I think I have to do both. And the latter is probably going to be the harder one than the, than the former, because diving the tradition is something which is just, it’s kind of there to hand. There’s not really much that, much more that needs to be done in some sense. Because that’s just, that’s, I’m going to take that, but in terms of diving, deeply into myself, that’s, I think there, there’s going to be some preparation that needs to be, needs to be done there because yeah, I think the other, the kind of, the kind of, the, the, the tradition aspect is, is largely, largely taken care of. Well, yeah, like the fact that it exists somewhere and you applying it are, are two different things though, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, I’m, I’m relatively confident that I, I’m, I have the capability to apply it well. Basically just banking on, on, on being a human at that point. I mean, if I can’t pass it on very well, then fair enough. You know, I, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know how much, how much else I can, I can, I can improve it other than, let’s say, inform myself more on it and try and, and try and, you know, get better at handing things on. So on the personal side, let’s say you, you’re, you’re God, right? Like you, you just got to get you, put yourself through all the changes that you need to go through. Like what does perfect Adam look like? Which is ironic. It’s like, yeah, yeah. He’s walking in the garden. Well, he’s got a wife, you know, her name’s Eve. It’s, it’s, since, since, since taking the Bible seriously and, and going to church and, and trying hard at this Christian stuff, I’ve, the reflection on, reflecting on, on what my parents decided to name me has been interesting in and of itself. I got the same issue. Yeah. And so, well, well, well, look, well, what would I look like? Perfect Adam would be naked, naked when it counts, you know, naked when it counts, before God, naked at least 14 times with his, with his wife to be, let’s see, compassionate, more compassionate than I am now. Wise, wise enough to be a father, whatever that is, however wise that is. And, and knowing, knowing himself and the past well enough to, to help in, help in the creation of a better future. That was too broad. Point that to what? Yeah, no, I’m, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, don’t worry. So, so when you say compassion, right? Like you, you gotta have a way of applying that right? Like where it’s needed. So maybe you can expand on that. Well, I guess, I guess, for those who are, who are being educated, like, let’s say, I don’t know, I could, I could be, I could be easier on those who I’m trying to help. Because, because you think you’re a harsh teacher right now? Inadvertently, I think I’m a little bit more of a, I’m a little bit more of a because. Because you think you’re a harsh teacher right now? Inadvertently, yes. Because I just, that’s the impression that people get is that I’m, I’m particularly harsh. Yeah. I don’t know where that comes from. No, I mean, that’s, it’s, but in the sense that I need, I need to be more patient with, with where people are at. And that’s where the. Add that to the list, patience. Yes. Because being patient is different than being compassionate, right? Like, because patience is effectively waiting for the right moment of action. Like, so I see it more as a, as an aspect of humility, right? Like where you’re placing yourself in incorrect relationship, or correct grounds for relationship. So if I would turn out a round, like you, you might have a problem knowing your place or knowing. Yes. Where to, where to grasp on, right? Like. Yeah. What to reach out for. Okay. So, so is, is, is there a specific aspect, right? Like where you would like to improve that you can identify right now, like in the grasping, like, or like, if I could do this, then things would go a lot better. If I could. If I could, yeah. I mean, if I could. You can go back to your nephew, right? Like, like what is the thing that you have liked to give to him that you didn’t give him? Well, that would be an impetus to action. There were times when we were out shopping and he wasn’t, he wasn’t willing to make a decision. And I just made, I just went, you know, I didn’t make the decision for him. I went and made a decision. And then soon enough, he followed with, you know, whatever he bought something. Yeah. So that’s inspiration. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so the way, the way I see inspiration and that’s actually like, it’s really funny in these unfolding the souls. If you, if you look at it, right? Like I’m doing the thing that’s being talked about often. So it’s like, so I’m trying to inspire you right now. It’s like, like when you inspire something, someone, right? Like you need to give them a vision to participate, right? Like then, then that vision is going to draw them forward, right? Like that’s the tell us that they can participate. Right. So, and this kind of reference to this, right? Like we’re putting it in a historical narrative, right? Like that would be a means for people to make a connection to themselves. Right. So, so in some sense, you’re, yeah, you’re, you’re trying to afford that connectivity, right? Or in other words, you’re trying to create intimacy, right? And in, in, in the intimacy, you kind of need to function like a bridge, right? For like the place where you are a person is stuck to this, this paradisal way. And, and, and yeah, right. Like the spirit is down the energy that, that captures them and moves them over the bridge. Yeah. So does that inspire you to, to something? No, I can’t, I can’t. Well, let’s, let’s go to being a dad, right? Like, like you’re, you’re with your child, right? And you’re like, Oh man, like, like my child is like, always wants to play computer games. But like, I want to, I want to get my child to do this other thing. Like how do you go about doing that? Well, you provide them a better alternative and be like, Hey, look, we want to go out, want to, I mean, Hey, want to, here’d be, here’d be a good one. Do you want to go out and sling some stones with me, but down by the river where we have to go and walk. And you have to, you have to, you know, you have to step in the water and pick up stones from the river bed and, you know, throw them onto the other side of the river. And, you know, I’ll show you how to make the sling, you know, we can do it together. And, and Hey, you know, you want to, if you, if you want history, if you want historical grounding, but like, you know, tell them about the story of David and Goliath, cause that’s where I heard it from. That’s it. That’s what I know. That’s part of how I know where sling, what a sling is. All right. So what I heard you do a couple of things, right? Because you’re changing the arena that he’s in, right? So, so you’re, you’re automatically already changing the way that he’s participating, right? Cause like, you’re not doing the same thing in your room and you’re not having the same distraction, right? Because if you’re, you’re in the forest or at the river, like having, you can’t just go, Oh, I’m going to sit behind the computer because you have to go backwards. Right. And then, and then there’s also the potential in the new arena, right? Like there’s these new modes of engagement that you can let be inspired by, right. In, in the moment. So yeah, like, like that, that sounds like, like a path, right? Like, like a sort of like a methodology where, where you can, you identify that that person is having a type of participation, right? Like whether that’s how they, how they read their book in class or whether that’s sitting behind the computer all day and you’re providing them with, with, with an alternative and a means to get there, right? And like the combination and then the exemplification in, in the thing, right? Like your enthusiasm in, in the throwing stones is, is down the dirt factor. I think that that would come together there and make that work. So yeah, wisdom. You were a little bit careful around that. Like, uh, you don’t see yourself having wisdom. Um, what would wisdom look like for you that, that you’d like to acquire? Um, I’d say that the, the wisdom to, to, to know myself sufficiently well, that that, well, yeah, basically to know myself actually, to, to, to be honest, and it’s quite easy to know about other things and let’s say man in general, but to know the particularities of, of how I get on kind of, yeah, gnosis, but not in the Gnostic sense, God willing. Um, yeah, so, so you’re wise, you’re a child five, right? You have this whole Dalton’s thing going. And so like, what, what is, what is the ideal? Like, like you, you, you get to do everything perfectly. Like what does your family look like? Like what is your family doing? Um, like what is it working towards? Um, a more, a more connected way of living. So that would, in that case, it would probably be living somewhere out in the countryside, a connection to nature, you know, um, in terms of it, in terms of schooling, that’s somewhat changed. So I, I wouldn’t, yeah, in terms of schooling, I guess, homeschooling, you know, but, um, homeschooling connection with real, you know, getting out there into the world and relating to other people, that’d be a big one. So they’d be out, you know, doing, doing work whenever they can. Um, and yeah, there’d be a farm, they’d have to relate to animals as well. Um, have connections to family. I mean, my, my parents probably be coming up every week or so more often, I don’t know, however often they want to come up, to be honest. Um, and that they were all be on the road to becoming, I suppose becoming people, but you know, becoming Persons. Persons, yeah. So you’re talking about, about connection a lot, right? But there’s also an element that is isolationary within the connection, which is somewhat paradoxical, right? So, so you, you feel like the, there’s a curation of participation that that’s necessary for Right development? Um, yes. Yeah. And I think there are some aspects in, in, in, in, in which things, things, things, for instance, when I was younger, weren’t curated sufficiently so that I ended up having a poor participation because of it. Um, and there’s, you know, when, when curating the participation, you have to be careful because, you know, it’s not like it’s going to be perfect, right? It’s not, it’s not a definite, most definitely not going to be. And so it’s probably, you got to figure out what’s the baby that you’re drawing out with the bath water, right? Cause like, yeah, that’s it. That’s really dangerous. Um, but, but like, maybe I should ask the question in this way. Like, would you say that they would, would you incentivize them to take up the same lifestyle as you were having, or would you incentivize them to find a different way? Well, I, I, I, the best I could do is incentivize them to find a way. And if they need guidance in that respect, that’s, I’m more than willing to provide it, but I’m not going to tell them to sort of, well, you have to get a farm, you have to do this, you have to do that. I’ll be more like, what do you, what do you, what would you like to do? Yeah, but there’s a way in which you say, well, like, oh, I thought about this for like five years and it was perfect. These five full years. Like I now have the answer, right? Okay. All right. Well, well, they should, they should go out and mimic, mimic that, that, um, that and, uh, whatever I did perfectly. So don’t beat them up that I was. Don’t beat them. No, don’t most definitely do not beat them up what I was. Um, but all the good parts of me. You see all the glory. Yeah. All the, you’re, you’re supposed to be as good as I was good and you’re not supposed to be anyway, but. Nice. Okay. Um, yeah. So is, is, is there different aspects, right? Like, like, do you, do you, do you want to be a teacher or, or do you want to be like, like a boss or like a leadership position where you also have like educational roles somewhat or like, like how do you see that professional side development? Oh, I mean, it would, it would be with the aim of, of just supplying part of it would be just supplying the means for the family, right? But in, in, on the professional side, it would be something which is, yeah, I mean, it would be, it would be family oriented, so it couldn’t take up too much time. Right. Um, and so in that way, I probably wouldn’t be having a leadership position there. I’d probably be just kind of getting along to get on sort of employee, you know, sort of position. Um, maybe training, maybe training people, right. Um, training, uh, new people coming into wherever I’m working. Right. So let’s just say, you know, it’s a nice, it’s a tech, technical company. I mean, I prefer hands-on work rather than kind of computers too much. So would you want to like leave the tech and go for one farming them? Um, I’d consider it, but even just having a few chickens, to be honest, would suit me. I don’t, I, I’ve seen full farms, like my cousins are cattle farmers or were cattle farmers, and I’ve heard, I’ve heard of the cattle before, and that’s just, that’s, that’s a risk waiting to happen. That’s, you know, that’s me at 30 getting kicked, getting, uh, you know, kicked by a cow and not coming home that day. So, um, I’d say, you know, relative, like there’d be some, some sort of nature, but I don’t think I go full farming. I don’t have the knowledge and a lot of farmers, you know, those guys are, they have the knowledge that I’d have to, I’d have to ask them and they wouldn’t really be too forward with it, you know, cause I’d have to learn from them and, you know, they mightn’t want to facilitate that. So I’d probably be doing some sort of technical profession, um, you know, maybe not, maybe not electrician, but something to do with electricity or something like that. Cause that’s just a bit of knowledge, a bit of technical know-how that I have that’s relatively, you know, commonplace. Okay. Like is, is there, uh, something that we missed, like something that you might aspire to, that we want to touch upon? Like maybe activity in actual church, for example, like, uh, would you want to have an educational role there? Um, that depends on whether there’s the space for it, to be honest. I, I, there is, there is, let’s say space there right now, but am I, I, I, I, am I, let’s say educated enough? Have I, have I had enough stuff passed on to me where I’m, I’m sort of fit for that role? I don’t think I have yet in five years. In five years, I don’t even think I’ll have that. Um, but if nobody else is going to do it, I suppose I could give it my best try, you know? So, so, so there’s a humility there. It’s like, yeah. So, so I guess a different way of saying that is you don’t feel suited for that role. Yeah. I mean, I’d say so on account of the fact that I was convinced atheist for most of, most of, most of my, my youth. And I’m only really beginning on the journey of, of that sort of life or relationship. Yeah. So I’m, my pastor was a convinced atheist at the start of his life. Right. So there is a flip, uh, that you can make. And I think having, having been there, right. Like having had the experience, having the contrast, uh, allows you for a different and probably deeper appreciation of, of what is right. Because, uh, yeah, I had this idea recently is like, okay, like, let’s just remove an aspect, right? Like a virtue from the world, right? Like what would things look like? Right. Like, um, and, and so if, if you’ve, if you’ve never realized the absence of a thing, right, like there’s an appreciation or, or an understanding that, that you cannot participate in. Um, so we’ve, we’ve been talking about faith crisis and, and, and meaning crisis, right? Like those go literally to, to these lacks of, of certain understandings. Um, so yeah, like, like maybe you have like a specific niche or something, because, because I think, I think that’s where we always end up, right? Like we always end up in a niche, where we’re like, okay, like, like I can do this and like, I know I can do better than other people because whatever reason. Um, and, but, but you’re not there yet. Like you’re, so you’re, in some sense, you’re still looking up and you’re like, okay, there’s a big mountain. Like, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m looking at. Uh, when I’m looking down, it’s like the swamp, the swamp of sorrow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that’d be, that’d be, I’d say if you said that to me, and most of my friends would be like, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Okay. Um, so yeah, I want to ask you like, like, is there an insight that you’ve gained by going through this trajectory in your life? Yes. Um, don’t, don’t let, yeah, let’s make it simple. Don’t let, don’t let unnecessary obstacles get in the way because there’s something on the other side and it matters what’s on the other side. Um, and you need, you need to find out what that is. So you made a qualifier unnecessary. Um, so now I’m interested in other necessary obstacles, like, like how are you making this distinction? But the, what’s I said, I said, don’t let unnecessary obstacles get in your way. Okay. I don’t know why I use that. Don’t let obstacles get in your way unnecessarily. Yes. Okay. That, that’s, that’s, that’s the proper way to frame it. Right. Cause cause there, there are necessary obstacles, uh, and you need to deal with them. But if, if they’re, if they’re in the way and you get to get around them and they, they’re not, they don’t need to be there fire ahead. Cause otherwise, otherwise you’re just going to stay in the same place all the time. Well, that’s the beginning of wisdom there. So there’s hopefully. So, um, yeah, I want to ask everybody else to respond to their takeaway so that Adam can get more insight in, uh, in himself and his journey and that we can give him a kickstart up until this, uh, what was it 16 number family or 14, 14, 14, that is 16 because there’s two adults there. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 14 children. So, yeah, thanks for being a guest. Um, I hope you enjoyed it. And thank you. See everybody next time in the next episode of Unfolding the Soul.