Plato's The Republic, Book 1 Discussion, Part 1 (ILkO1Eb1K3s)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=ILkO1Eb1K3s

Okay, so yeah, so the thing that I wanted to do is first introduce the idea of intention setting right so Kind of I’ve been going over the group intention right so as a group we want to bring in things that we either personally found moving or we struggle with right and then we bring it up for discussion and Then I also want to have an element for personal intention and The personal intention is is something that is supposed to facilitate your growth right like it’s supposed to facilitate your interaction with what’s currently happening and And also like it’s trying to highlight what you’re trying to get out of out of the text right and so I Want to state what intentions are not? So intentions are not promises right so we’re not holding ourselves to standards or not making Requests of ourselves of others like an intention is not a requirement Right so it’s not a thing that you have to do It’s it’s a thing that will guide you in in your participation your intention is also not a goal My intentions are ways of Interacting right and you don’t know what type of expression they will find and that’s also part of their purpose But just they open up a different type of participation so the way in which I wanted each of us to Set our intention and also have ourselves introduce ourselves a little bit is State why we’re here right and like when When we’re stating why we’re here then that also implies what you want to get out of it right so you can Particulate that as an intention for yourself In your current participation right and then that also introduces Each other so I’ll start this off and then I’m just go around I’ll call the next person by name So I’m here partially because I still need to catch up on play-doh It’s a lot with play-doh, but I don’t think I actually read it That is a thing and and the other thing is like I’ve been Trying to facilitate these things and trying to figure out what it means to facilitate it, so this is an opportunity for me To To learn about how people participate how I can facilitate that participation and how that fits into the framework that I Used to to understand these things and so that’s that’s also my intention going to be like this Attempt to the way that people are participating and I’m trying to lift up That participation in the best way possible Adam? Well I’m I’ve Had a bit of interaction with ancient Greek philosophy But I’ve never I’ve never read never in my life read the Republic and so I think this is probably now is now is as good a time as any to familiarize myself with that with that part of play-doh and Yeah, and then just to sort of see what what what other? Sort of people think about it and how other people relate to it and how I can relate to that and the text and see what I can get out of out of What I might be able to see from from all of that in my own life No, you’re playing that someone else Oh Mark Thank you Adam Yeah, so my intent with this is I don’t think I’ve ever read the Republic and I find the book clubs, especially the ones that I participate in Manuel to be a very rich way to slow down and interact with the text in a way that I cannot alone right inside a single perspective and Being with other people and Hearing their perspectives on the same words in many cases even if it’s a different translation right for the same spirit of the text and Being able to interact with that live with a real person is for me much richer than merely interacting with the text by myself and I get it a deep a deeper more full sense Especially because I am slowing down and reading the book at a pace Which also helps to absorb the book instead of trying to like power through it or or whatever and So that’s my intent is to have that that deep Rich Multi-perspective distributed cognition sort of experience with the book rather than merely reading it With that I will hand it over to Danny Excuse me, so I’m here and initiating this because I Started listening to this audiobook in the sauna and I found it to be engaging cool I was totally captivated by the the drama of it. It felt like I was listening like a master perform And I got a feeling that there’s a bunch of cool stuff that I was only able to see like 5% of And then also I was hoping to kind of connect real life with you guys Because I’m too exhausted in my day-to-day life to participate as much as I’d like to So we’ll see how that goes But you know, I was also kind of hoping to create some some new connections as well And so but yeah, I’m definitely here to kind of you know, just learn from the book I listened to the whole thing through and I listened to chapter one several times So I posted a summary of this morning that I just wrote up real quick That’s just the facts but the facts like I mentioned I’m glad um Beatrix brought up the translation thing because I think for me it does matter because for me the actual emotiveness of the words is Everything, you know and just knowing like all the arguments about justin’s and stuff I’m I’m less attracted to but there’s plenty of plenty of awesome themes. I’m looking forward to exploring in chapter one so Let’s see Sally Well, what is your intention? Oh my intention. I’m sorry. Oh so my intention is to Perform an experiment to see what happens with the digital physical thing but then also So I’ve I’m looking I’m seeking what’s already emerged in the last hour which is When I say that I feel like there’s five only five percent of stuff that I’m getting a lot of it is There’s frames that I don’t know and you can apply different frames to solve different problems Right. And so as a group there’s just you’re able to learn your blind spots and You’re able to see your own motivations a little bit more clearly when you can bounce it off other people So I’ve already gotten that but that’s what one of the things I was seeking in the form of participation here Good enough If it’s satisfactory for you, okay, okay Sally I’ve listened to Plato’s Republic before on audiobook I enjoy looking at these type of topics between multiple different parties because That helps me understand what I there and my intention is to get cartoon ideas I think we can go to whack. That’s your real name. Yes. Yes So I’m with Sam I Enjoy philosophy in general, but I Enjoy philosophy in general, but I don’t read it as much as I think must do My brother would Have read already This book and we thought we could think about it. So I was interested in it. I know Plight on platform ideas in general, but It’s very interesting for me to go in depth in His bigger book I did one book club when I was in houston. I enjoyed the process. So my intention is to To go Through the books learning The different perspective of people and having a Way to set up what I need to understand about Hey, well It’s hard for me to answer the intention because I just barely found out about this book club, but Um I’ve actually The idea of uh Book club for the republic has been something i’ve been kind of Fantasizing about for probably a year now. It’s just kind of odd. I just found out about it yesterday Despite personally sending mark a copy of the republic Um The the republic I purchased it when I was listening to a uh, uh A lecture by author holmes On it’s just like it was on philosophy Um ancient philosophy and he says kept telling his students to go purchase the republic and read it He said you’re not educated until you read the public He says probably the most One of the most fundamental texts of western culture saved the bible And after reading it I I understand why he said that because um, if you were I mean it was a It was like the book you read like when you went to the academy you be educated and um in class And that’s uh class right You know what? Um, there is a One thing that was really helpful for me. There’s somebody did a dramatic They have different people speaking and stuff that was really good I would read it and then listen to it on that um There’s there’s obviously it’s been it’s been around for so long Um, so it’s very rich and has a lot of depth to it. But even just service level stuff You can get a lot Just from service level things like you know the problems with democracy You know what it what it means to live a good life? um kind of um A little honestly a little bit skeptical. Um Yes, but you know, especially with the limited amount that i’ve engaged with eastern orthodoxy And actually you guys um learning that um Interpretation is uh, very important and vital obviously because things can be interpreted incorrectly um very easy, I guess apparently it’s very easy to Fall into a gnostic reading of play dough um Something that has really much helped me is uh d.c schindler Which definitely is I would say is a very christian reading Of the republic despite not using the word christ once at all in his entire book um so There’s lots to learn. Um, i’m very excited to the amount that I can participate with you guys um So I my my intention I guess is um To um To capture insight, um in a good to capture good insight which i’m a little anxious about but um I’m I will be optimistic Um, I think I think I think of most people That are willing to do a book club on the internet. I think this is probably good That’s a good a good little batch. So I I sorry for being so long Can confirm So, uh, yeah, then I I wanted to remind everybody of this idea of a container right so We’re we’re all participating in in something that contains the spirit of the conversation And that requires us to have a certain type of participation, right? So One one of the things that you want to do is you want to Try to abstain from contribution when it’s not furthering the spirit of the conversation, right? So we’re here to have the spirit and have it flow and if we’re obstructing it, right like if we’re having a skeptical Like it’s it’s not bad to be skeptical but like if if everything flows through a skeptical perspective then It’s everything what we do gets obstructed, right? So we want to construct something we want to Find the things that are there for us to be found instead of shoot down The things that we don’t like because I don’t think that will be generative um And and there’s also a bunch of symbolism in in the text, right? Like there’s there’s hidden meaning like Talked about it right like only five percent that danny Has seen right so part of part of the thing that we want to do is we want to lift these things up Into the light so that we we can play with it. We can we can bounce it around and we can add to it It’s like we we don’t have to be strictly bound to the text. We can we can add to that as well um And yeah, so so these symbols right like they have they have a relationship between each other, right? Like they that flows out of the text, but they also have a relationship to us, right? and that’s ultimately why we’re we’re doing this right like we’re trying to Implement these things in our lives and and so making these connections and making things relevant to to our personal situation Is is a thing that I invite people to do Then we can by example Make things relevant to the other people in the group Um, and yeah, lastly Staying silent is also a contribution If you don’t have something valid to add, it’s it’s okay just not to participate in whatever’s going on in the moment That is completely fine And there’s no shame there uh Yes, how much time does the book does the session stay? Um two hours three hours I we have not set a time. Um, so Okay, yeah, it’s open-ended so you can feel free to come and go Okay, yeah Um need to go in one and a half hours just to let you know Yeah, we’ll we’ll manage I think we’ll be exhausted at that point as well um Yeah, so so danny do you want to you said you had a summary? Um, so like Maybe there’s someone who wants to say some introductory things or danny wants to Get us going from from the start of the summary Do you want a breath first? Do you want to walk through it a little bit slower? Like want me to zoom through the whole chapter? just at a I want I want people to I want to go here to the structure of the story and when when things Okay are are relevant to people we want to talk about So, okay first socrates runs into this guy named cephalus some old rich guy And he makes some comments about how passions specifically sexual passions Received in old age and that frees him up to have a calmness and a sense of freedom Um, he talks about they talk about wealth I I can’t remember from memory because it’s not on my notes, but I don’t recall if this is a chapter or even the book where talk to these talks about how Companionship is like a higher virtue than like the pursuit of money. I don’t remember if those comments are made in the chapter but cephalus says um that One of the advantages of having wealth in an older age is that he just feels the need to not have to deceive other men And he also talks about how in later in life There’s the fear of a bit of punishment in afterlife. It was a laughing matter when he was younger and now it’s more serious um, then the conversation after those are kind of neither here nor there that was kind of just Character building it seems like character building from what I could tell. Um, well Yeah, let me let me jump in here real quick. So I want to make one quick note because I think it’s actually super important, right? This whole thing starts with the religious um Ritual right? So there’s a religious ritual that starts the whole thing off Right, and so we’re ending the religious ritual and then we’re walking down the road and then we get stalked and then there’s an interaction That I found very interesting which and adam was talking about this with us yesterday, right where it’s like Socrates you’re gonna come with us and socrates is sort of no, please help. I feel depressed like literally It’s really funny. It’s actually quite an amusing, uh interaction and He gets as a result of that he gets cajoled or drawn in or or however you want to frame it and it It’s it’s almost cheeky in the book, right? The whole it’s campy, right? and and the whole idea behind this is That you’re going from that more serious religious frame Into this sort of jesting relaxed um Would you call it communal mode right where it’s like come be be in our community, right? And and you notice he is treating it as an imposition now. I haven’t read ahead that far So I have a feeling this is going to come up later when they talk about community I’m not sure if i’m pretty sure right so That contrast between the very serious religious thing that it starts with and I did ask um his youtube channel is uh lantern jack My buddy jack about this um I I all of the philosophical texts seem to mention and possibly start with a religious reference I don’t think that’s a coincidence from the from the greeks I think they’re saying something very important about the relationship between their religious ceremonies whatever random paganism they happen to subscribe to or whoever You know whichever philosopher is telling the story and the philosophy they all seem to be grounded in that religious tradition And then when you get to the point of the old men talking That is the contrast so you have the the past being venerated in the religious tradition Right, it’s just that’s just implied and sort of glossed over because taken for granted because it’s probably part of everyday life for these folks Right because well, I I want to I want to comment on that because I don’t think so, right because what what he’s doing He he’s descending from the city with his body like and like his body is I think representative of upper class As More more haddy type, right? So so so they’re the two of them descending. I think it’s into the harbor, right? And it’s the trations in the harbor that are doing this Sacrificing towards the god right and he’s specifically interested in how they’re executing their ritual, right? So so in some sense he’s coming coming down away from from his high place to observe Common man and and and then he gets caught By by the common man, but but also it’s it’s it’s not It’s alien right? So it’s it’s not atons that that is represented. It’s the trations that do Religious ritual right? So that’s also an importing of the outside in in into the community Can I just say on the comment on the piraeus it’s very strange if you look at the ancient Construction because piraeus is contiguous with athens See if you look at old ancient port cities, there’s generally a sort of green space in between So the walls of the city will stop but as as distinct with athens You will see in ancient depictions you have the city around the acropolis and there is a wall There is a curtain wall on either side all the way down to the piraeus And so it’s all if you want to think think about it. It’s all contained within Athens piraeus is kind of you want kind of like the porch Another porch of athens. It’s a porch onto the water rather than porch onto the rest of greece There’s that sense of integration too of this integration of the highest and the lowest yeah I I didn’t focus so much on the religious perspective, but How I thought about it is I asked myself the question why he speak first with this old man and uh and for me the old man is I agree with most but he’s of what he say and I think he represents toisies in general Because he uh, yeah He has an age where he have no more desire and so he’s more in the phase with stoicism and it’s like Socrates found his good old friend That are not historic and that’s the beginning of his uh, his like big book. That’s how I perceive it uh, because he doesn’t add much at At the book I mean the perspective is become a different subject Uh, it’s not directly justice uh, and that that’s how I felt about the beginning of the book it’s the We start with stoicism and uh, and this mindset in a way Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely that time that timeline right and then they’re establishing in that conversation wisdom Right. They’re establishing this wisdom gained through experience Which I think is really important or going to be really important to the story, you know further on And and it’s from that Where the oldest sort of hands it off Right, and then it gets handed down again But I don’t want to get too far ahead of danny’s uh danny’s outline here Yeah, but but I think the old guy was also the one who extended the invitation to socrates, right? So He he’s also fulfilling the role of the divine feminine in some sense. He’s creating the space in which Socrates can manifest his education because without him granting uh that that flowering or that field in which to be flowered, uh Socrates would not have been had that opportunity to to engage in this mission Um, i’m not sure if sephal maybe it doesn’t matter but um the context To add what you guys are saying. It’s actually vitally important uh socrates was offering to a god that A I believe it was a hunting god a goddess of hunting So that’s very important because that’s what he’s embodying because he’s going to be hunting truth um, he’s leaving the he’s leaving the the the the service or celebration whatever it is and he’s caught by these guys and They Kind of forcibly make him come back to their house and you know, we could say oh his socrates He would have done that anyways, that’s something he wanted to do but you have to read it you have to appreciate that there that there’s a element of drama to this and Socrates is playing the role of a philosopher and the philosopher will as we read on We’ll see that a good a good king or a good ruler has to be compelled to rule He can’t want to rule on his own volition because you know, it’s a good indication that he’s just seeking power Um, he has to has to rule out of an obligation to to a higher virtue also the fact that um The the light it’s the end of the day, I believe and it’s getting dark. So the party that they’re inviting him to Is going to take place after the sun has set They they he mentions that with uh, the torches and the horse races and stuff like that So that’s important stuff. That’s the the dramatic context the um of the scene here And the goddess the goddess it’s a hunting goddess, but it’s also It’s in my footnote here and I checked it in wikipedia. It’s a hunting goddess, but it’s a thracian goddess So it’s a foreign foreign god. It’s a new god that they that they’re a little unfamiliar with So I don’t know how maybe you guys Can have some insight on there, but it is a little bit of a unfamiliar god goddess Yeah, and and the thrations are very far off in in in the ancient greek world this time the thrations are Far to the north in modern day bulgaria. So if you can imagine the amount of distance that would separate That those peoples that’s kind of if you want to kind of on the very edge That’s like the edge of uh, if you want in the ancient greek sense of kind of the edge of of barbarism Yeah And and so it is going down to the to the port to the port kind of to the Port of of chaos to kind of say to interact with this goddess And how how often do we are over reminded of the the motif? I think we get from pageau his brother that um, how Vital the the strange is to come in and revital Re-renew everything so there’s that the inside coming in Uh the foreign coming in it’s almost like a a re-fertilization or something. So there’s that to think about too so it’s um, yeah It’s not just a there is definitely a dramatic element to it Yeah, that’s all great detail and pretext so thank you everybody for all that um, if you want to proceed through the narrative As after that after socrates meets cephalus They get honored they get talking and they introduce the first definition of justice and he proposes it’s paying debts and telling truths and over socrates provides some examples where Like if you have if you give weapons to a friend and their friend is mad It’s it’s not it’s not just To give the weapons back to your friend when he’s mad, right? So he gives some examples of why that’s not the case So that’s kind of the first uh Time that the concept of justice is introduced So maybe we want to reframe That right so like the association session that I got is is like restoring order in some sense, right? like the paying that is like that is Disordering and then you you read you read put things in the proper place Um Do we have different associations with with that Yeah a debt a debt you’re if you’re loaning money to somebody it’s you’re loaning you’re giving of your own kind of Substance and part of the restoring of order and that is the reciprocation of that order back and I didn’t really get much more than that out of it. In fact, i’m not sure Uh where that is in the text this does this happen after this is this is after um They they got talked the socrates and the older man was we’re talking initially right this is after they interact No, they’re still talking. It’s right after they talked about about the role of wealth and I don’t okay But i’m not clear why they set up the role of wealth but but you know effectively I think that’s going to end up being a literary trick right or or or even a trick of dialectic where What they said about wealth, which I think again is going to be important later, right is that If you’re an ordered person Then wealth is good But if you’re not an ordered person then wealth is not good And so I think they’re doing that to exemplify this dichotomy of justice that socrates eventually sets up and gets into and Recalling chapter two here, right the interaction with uh pola marcus Where where basically what What what’s happening is you can’t judge the thing in and of itself. You can’t say wealth Has this quality or property and in the same way what I think they’re saying in the initial characterization of justice is you can’t reduce justice Down to a simple equation of paying debts and telling truth So guys in the pretext of of the setting the fact that there’s this religious ceremony and the gods are changing essentially Does that is that saying the world’s in a chaotic place? Or is is like that like there’s a change in guard or like, I don’t know Maybe adam might know a little bit about this is that is that I’m wondering if there’s a connection between the context that we talked about and the role of wealth And like the idea that we some said stoicism like like if that represents the stoic position Then is this is a perspective on wealth or this perspective on justice? What’s the relationship to? The circumstance that they’re in like is there any okay? Uh, I can add something. Um But how I saw this counter-argument of socrates Saying that a mad person Don’t give Back his weapon. Well, he for me it’s to set up. It’s like a simple counter-argument. That is that work And it’s a way to set up Distinction between human and how they deal with their soul Uh, because afterward there is categorization of Soul and who is able to rule or not? And I think it’s just a an instance of this bigger argument So he begin with that For me he just dribbled like a little bit. He just Talked at the beginning with people and set up his bigger arguments That’s how I saw it but I didn’t make a connection between uh The tradition and the religion at the beginning of the book uh With the with the discussion of justice. I didn’t make a I think it’s just a setup uh Of where we are and who we are That’s how I see it and Maybe it’s an indication of how people in In Sicily at the time think how how we are because he met people and he discussed with them. And so They are what we They live in certain area and so this area take their thoughts The way of living how they would question and I think it’s just a way to set up this But maybe So I I know that they went down to the harbor Right because that’s that’s where you go down to the place next to the sea and the harbor is is the place where? Aliens come into the city, right? But it’s also the place where trade happen, right? So that’s where you make money um So I think there’s a connection to money there and and yeah, like like the alien is is the the introduction of change right and like In in in language of creation we can find that there’s good change, right? like there’s change that that gets integrated and then there’s change that superimposes itself upon the structure, right, so um And I I think I think you have to keep that in mind that change is not necessarily a negative Yeah, and it’s interesting too that they start with wealth in the land of trade Right or in the space of trade I should say right and then and then that that gets them right into justice Right, but it also exemplifies the difference between say the simplification of something like debt right So you’ve simplified justice to debt through money and then you go Oh But when it’s a weapon you can’t apply that principle anymore that principle fails and that’s what gets exemplified here At least at the end of chapter one, right where it’s like Oh, this is a problem, right? Conduct then cannot be defined as telling the truth and restoring anything we have been trusted with It’s like oh well, that’s That’s a problem, right? And then This is the point, you know, it’s the end of chapter one the beginning chapter two, right? Where yes it can paul marcus breaks in at least if we believe simonite eyes, right? and um, that’s where he You know that that’s the the the turning point From the setup of the story into the actual back-and-forth discussion where the socratic method gets, you know, basically, uh Used abused and uh road hard and put away wet for sure Uh, I really enjoyed chapter two because of that. I just got like sucked right in I didn’t pay attention to what I was reading anymore. Like wow, this is so much fun So so yeah, it it It sets up this Journey, right? It sets you on this journey from the hill now Right, and then and then now you’re going into the land of trade and and now you’re talking about justice because trade It’s all about justice, right? You need justice in order to To be able to do these things like trade Yeah, well, they’ll go into that later in the book as well When they’re talking about cities, right and when you have a harbor right like now the requirements of what what you need to do in order to Maintain justice change But does does it make uh, I forgot that does it say uh something like Uh well, uh depth is must be uh Regulated by uh justice and trade between people not not regulated by justice something like this. I forgot No He’s talking about Yeah, I really like the um way when he’s discussing should you return? Um arms to a person Not in their mind and then even they kind of switch it to should you were told return gold to someone not in their right mind And this is a like if you were using christian terms, this is the application of grace Because yes justice is a thing but it doesn’t mean just because it falls under the black and white law That it is correct And it’s really fascinating to find that argument here when you’re used to seeing it from the christian frame Yeah, so Another thing that stood out to me is like I think the old old guy is like like laying a foundation Uh for the conversation because I I talked with danny a lot about the three characters the three young guys that are representative of of the more passionate nature and then the more heartly nature and then more mindy witty nature and and their capacity is to relate to certain aspects and not to relate to certain aspects of the argument But but the first character that that is being introduced in into this argument is is well, yeah the stoic old guy, right and in some sense He He is lecturing right like he he is an authority and he’s he’s not His relationship at least the maybe i’m wrong about it But his relationship to socrates was also a little bit different. Okay, and I don’t think he really got into the To the investigation as much as as these other guys were When you feel appropriate I know I found that illustrator the the the the man the beast monster I found that Super useful. Um, I’d like To hear that unpacked for everyone. I think people would find value in that If that’s a greek idea, you know the context too But I know cephalos and socrates they refer to each other’s friends, you know, like they were traveling Hey, you should come see me in my old age. I can’t travel as well anymore You should come see me more often, you know, so there is some intimacy between them um, so Adam what you’re saying? I was just gonna say that um the There is a kind of assumed. Um There’s it’s implicit kind of that. Oh this this old man, uh cephalos can can actually offer something to socrates um And specifically about old age. It’s like, you know in in the translation i’ve read here. It’s kind of to the point It’s like he goes straight to the question. He says something like, um, you know, you’ve reached the threshold of old age He says, you know, is it a difficult time? You know, what is your report about it? It’s kind of you know He just he just cuts straight to what he wants to know and there’s a kind of there’s a kind of mutual um, uh kind of a mutual not just respect but kind of um Hierarchy between them where it’s like, of course this old man is now going to teach the uh, uh teach the younger man What what you know, uh answer his question essentially? There’s also a standoffishness of course because afterwards you’re manuel you were pointing to kind of you know, he kind of Cephalos kind of fades out and passes it off to the younger men. He’s kind of Cephalos is kind of you know, it was a nice distraction, but now he’s kind of going to go back to his kind of normal regular Barbecue, yeah his barbecue He’s good, he’s going to enjoy his uh his his time, uh, you know enjoy the the Things that he can that he can in old age I’ve noticed that the other than among certain types of old people is that they’re they they get to the point Very deep points very quickly and they’re not really afraid to go very deep very quickly We said I don’t remember if you ever had the opportunity to meet might michael low from houston, but he exhibited this trait, right? I don’t know. He was he used to be this houston simpati orchestra director You know, he was you know, did you ever meet him we some? I don’t think so. No, that’s too bad amazing person um But anyway, I I do notice that pattern for what it’s worth and There seems to be something about those types of people They seem to be looking like their entire lives. They just there’s something very different about those types of people you know, I don’t know what to make of it, but Well, and you see you see that here in that The two older men who are friends and have this to your point dan a intimate relationship Are just some extent toying with the younger one, right? Because he’s handing it off, right? I said well, i’ll bequeath the argument to you Right, which is kind of like go ahead dude. You think you’re gonna argue with socrates have at it, buddy I’m gonna go back to the barbecue because I know how this is gonna go right? There’s very you get that sense immediately. It’s very few words In the two translations i’ve read very few words. It’s very concise and right to the point But you very much and and this is where you know, some of the symbolism Is important, right? You can you can say oh all of this, you know the first part of this first chapter this setup stuff is just Not important to the argument But actually I think it’s everything to the argument because like a good play it actually matters where things start And that starting point and the process of handing things off and the cleverness with which it’s handed off because it does go the two old men Sort of start this discussion on something very deep and draw everybody else into that discussion effectively and one of them’s just like You got this i’m gonna go over here and have me some food I think have a blast right? He really is abandoning the youngins to their to their whoopens, you know, because you know, the whoopens are coming Right and so part of that is just the context of you know Now we know about the public we know about the socratic method we know You know what’s about to what’s about to transpire here? Like we’re we’re well aware of how socrates does what he does and so This whole framework setup starting point is really important Symbolically in allowing us to interface with recognize and engage with the argument to come in a way that That makes sense but but also You know and as you stray into chapter two, right also what becomes clear? Is that there’s a setup that’s been that’s been done, right? There’s and and it it may not be explicit, right? It may be oh, well the kids are gonna are gonna get caught in this trap of argumentation That’s common amongst we’ll say the rhetorical form of the day And that’s going to not end well for them because socrates right This one’s Yeah, I think There is there is I’ve seen this myself There is an element in which the older men when they get into the more leisurely part of their life That you’re right. This you’re right mark. They kind of set up a base And and there is a kind of there is an aspect of messing with it But I don’t think it’s a messing in the sense of a kind of cruel messing of like, you know I just I just want to throw a wrench in the thing to kind of see it all tumble down. It’s more like it’s more like What is it like? It’s kind of like drawing people’s attention to Something by virtue of kind of just the the draw that you might have as as a man of that age And then kind of running off so that you don’t kind of you kind of allow them to explore it And and and kind of figure it out for themselves Right. Well, that’s the that’s the that interaction is the interaction with the creation of curiosity Why is these old men just blathering about and they say something really interesting and you’re like Well, they were just having this kind of banal conversation. Oh, it’s like to be old Now that you’re old You know, it’s going how’s that what’s what tell me about it, you know, and he’s ah, well this and that Oh, tell me about wealth. How does how does wealth like you think money’s just good? Look, what’s what’s up with that? Right so they’re drawing their curiosity and right there it is It is a moving of attention, right? It’s time energy and attention And so it’s a moving of attention. And then what’s happening is It’s sort of withdrawing and making a space For the old guys not to just go oh, yeah, of course Of course, that’s how well of course that’s what justice is. Of course. That’s not the totality of of course You can’t reduce justice. They don’t want that because they’re they’re not to your point adam They’re not setting them up to knock them down really they’re setting them up for proper education Right, not training. They’re not training them There there’s an element of training but they’re educating them by grabbing their curiosity Inflaming their passions because that happens right right at the end of chapter two That’s happened, right and then and then putting them in a situation where they’re drawn into this this, you know They’re sort of like drawn into this hole that’s much deeper than they suspect right and by way of Curiosity and that’s what engenders the education Yeah, I also think it’s it’s important to realize that that there’s an archetype there that’s important Right, like it’s like the wise old king or something. It’s like oh, there’s the next generation And I’m gonna put them on on a quest right? I’m gonna put them in a place where they Will have to fend for themselves so that they can find out who they are and and become something more Will have to fend for themselves so that they can find out who they are and and become something more And yeah, I think I think we might have need more of that in in our lives and I also Figured back like I think there’s gonna be a recurring pattern of trees Sets of tree Because I I think with there’s three types of cities, right? But The there was also three Three types of worlds that were accentuated or types was maybe not the right word But like his his granddad was the guy who made a fortune effectively, right? Then his dad was the guy who tanked it and then he was the guy in the middle, right? So there’s a there’s an element of humility that he puts in there, but there’s also like I’m not incompetent Uh, so it’s it’s it’s interesting to to maybe see how these these trees Keep popping up in the way in which they’re used Examples or given either Yeah, I I like that catch I didn’t catch the threes in the beginning so that that was useful And also like right at the end here of chapter one, right your part then will fall to me as your heir Yeah, right and then it’s like by all means and a big smile, right? You can just see it in your head, right? It’s like he’s giving a wink and a nod, you know Exactly. And with that i’m out of here But off to the barbecue off to the food Right. So and and and so you get that sense of passing down the baton the knowledge Right passing down the interaction, right? Because this whole idea of inheritance Is right there in that in that final you’re not just inheriting the money Because that’s what’s discussed earlier is the inheritance like I want to leave my sons at least as much as I was left Right that that very much that goes back to manuel’s excellent point and it’s also in the horse races actually before that the handing off Oh, yeah. Yeah the the goddess the festival All the symbolic theme about handing off the fire at night and yeah on horseback, which sounds interesting indeed Wow, what an interesting thing. Why would it be interesting to have stuff handed down to you, right? And and and yeah, I mean I suspect later we’ll probably touch on the whole idea of what things supposed to relinquish to his son Uh, because that’s probably going to come up because that’s very much what’s hinted at when talking about handing down You can see Hopefully or sense maybe or intuit all of the rich Symbolism in the setup. It’s very subtle in some points And it and it’s really stark in others But it’s in some sense because there’s subtlety going on, you know with all this background knowledge of understanding that You know the city is unique right because there’s no separation Between we’ll say that the margins and the center, right? Which is very very sort of ultra democratic Athens sort of style right Athenians sort of socks sort of style and then there’s also the sense that Things are flowing from the religious tradition out right out of that and then there’s this sense of That being the thing that exemplifies through the passing of the torches this whole idea that is culturally You know super important of handing down and handing off and it’s it they taught they start with wealth It’s like but i’m not really just handing off my wealth. I’m also handing off My arguments my my rationality in some sense Well, actually they go they go back into that a little bit later, right? So it’s like like What are you giving me for for my arguments? And then so could he says I give you praise right like so hear you on consider the difference in imagery between A torch in a house or a torch still or a torch on a lamp post And a torch on running horses Yeah, you’re you’re creating a trail of light through the darkness Because it’s running horses at night like that’s explicit. It’s at night and that creates a different imagery entirely And then it’s a difference between if you’re thinking about the torch as the thing being gifted It’s the thing being gifted experiencing the effect of time in the environment Well in time’s a big theme right time’s a big theme because it starts with the old men talking right and and It starts with this ancient ancient ancient ritual sort of Engagement, even though the ritual itself may be new the idea of celebration ritual engagements. It’s vulnerable Like a torch on horseback you drop that it’s over Like yeah, yeah Yeah, and like the thunder of it the noise of it it’s loud Um, I don’t know just strikes me intense visuals Yeah, the thing that I was thinking about is is that it Leaves an after image right because it’s a moving light. So so there’s there’s this thing that remains Where it’s no longer there? So there’s you’re interfacing with an image which goes into the theory of forms later on right with the image being the least real Well, I I really looked at it as overlapping what he said about wealth too, um Because his grandfather had a brilliance in represented by this money and then it was lost and then it was regained And that’s like torches Moving through air There’s gonna be a waning and a recurrence and just all of that and like it could just went out Like it could have just went out with socrates. He could have just continued to dwindle like his dad and like sometimes that happens um, so it’s just uh I So when I read these kind of things I become more aware. I had this with marcus aurelius, too Um, I become more aware of the attention to the blossoming of life that the ancients were just better at um They just were it just seems like they were better at it like that that oh be aware it blossoms for a time Um, and I see that in these torches is like, oh, it’s a continued maintenance And I and the reason I think that’s important is um, the same reason I think people should plant stuff is like Humans interaction with nature and maintenance of nature is more important than what we build Like I mean what we build is part of that like it’s part of nature and it’s like just because something will decay Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t build it and it’s being part of that whole participation pattern Yeah, the handing off theme is everywhere but again, I think it’s part of the framing it’s part of the important part of the framing Right. It’s not just some ancillary Arbitrary setup that could be replaced with something else that they are setting up this thread through time Right and exemplifying that thread through time by carrying it in a certain order And talking about it symbolically through the torches on horseback at night And and you know that theme is woven in symbolically through the whole uh chapter And again, it may seem like this banal sort of random setup that doesn’t matter to the argument But in fact the whole idea of having this discussion is is completely uh constrained by contained within and um driven by this framing It doesn’t actually if you take out this first chapter this framing and start with chapter two The motivations don’t work anymore. It’s not some objective material reality that you can just Arbitrarily jump into it really requires the engagement with the first chapter and the careful consideration Of these, you know seemingly minor Interactions with the fact that there’s no wall right and get right down to the Uh to the to the area of trade. This is a foreign celebration, but it is a religious celebration Right the conversation between the old man. It’s kind of fluffy and then it’s not now It’s a very deep trap that they’ve set for these for these poor little poor little uh empty minds that are about to be filled or overfilled with uh, With uh with knowledge and rationality Is it uh Okay, is it a non-menu or we say it’s a non-menus image Non-menus scenery because it seems like the characters are in Fear a little bit socrates Because he’s really good at debating and afterwards you feel this fear with the The arm is good. Yes. He jumped at Socrates and he say You must be You you must tell us the truth. You must be straight Stop asking question It seems like characters are fear with conversing with socrates and maybe this image is something Scary setup Because socrates is coming maybe I don’t know So this this is one of the things I loved most like the detail of the non-abridged version, you know Manuel mentioned oh socrates pays and pays and praise but like the way the way in the detail of of like He’s got a back socrates has got a backbone like when when It’s there simica’s and like it’s like one of the most badass western quotes i’ve ever heard When there’s simica’s I have it I think I could have it here. Um They’re putting pressure, you know theresimachus is saying behold. He said the wisdom of socrates He refuses to teach himself and goes about learning to others to uh of others to whom he never even says Thank you and then socrates says that I learn of others. I replied is quite true, but that I am grateful I wholly deny money. I have none and therefore I pay in praise which is all I have and how ready I am to pay Uh to praise any one of you who appears to me to speak well of you, uh To speak well well to speak well you will very soon find out When you answer for for I expect that and that you will answer well Sorry mess up that reading but basically he’s saying like, you know I expect you to talk back to me like he he’s getting put under pressure by all these people and like he he’s able to like Con like it’s just I love the way he does it. I’m sorry. I just I just found that so cool, you know uh, I agree I botched the reading there but uh And it goes but that goes back to money and the attachment of the money to the to the value And that interaction right because again the setup There’s a setup there for a reason and I get the feeling that every single component and aspect of that setup and all the Symbolism in it is going to get wrapped up in the book later on because I haven’t read it yet So i’m reading it right along with the first time here, right? So I think that’s what’s important is like well, what’s valuable is money valuable and socrates would say of course No, he also say knowledge is invaluable. I agree on both accounts, right? And then that’s what’s important is that he is Like the setup of this is not done by socrates Right. He’s a character inside this frame Right inside this container and and that’s why they talk about money at first And then they Take that principle apply it to justice, right and jump dump everybody in the justice bucket without their permission effectively Or their understanding they have no idea what’s happening and and and you you do have to imagine too Like everyone in zootalka cheese is he’s the troublemaker. We all know this already, right? And that’s why that’s why the passions get inflamed at the end of chapter two, right? Like what are you doing? Why aren’t you? uh You know, why aren’t you just answering the stupid question? Why are you playing the stupid game like you always do because it it is it’s like you always you always do this Why are you doing this to us? We’re well familiar with your with your nasty little tricks, right? And I and I don’t want to jump ahead too much because there’s a lot in chapter two We could just do if we want to go there but but yeah, I mean there is that sense that you know, everybody knows this guy They know they know they’re familiar with with his ways, you know He’s at least got a reputation that precedes him and and uh, and and they’re they’re sort of used to this Even though they fell for it again Right. They’re sort of used to to to this or at least hearing that this is what happens when you’re around this this troublemaker Yeah Or sorry Is chapter one book one or is chapter one? Yes. Yes Actually, that’s the question on No, no, we have four chapters. So I think I think it’s the four characters, right? So you have There’s only dialogue with two people really in book one, which is cephalos and thersemachus No There is more but there is two of those Yeah, I know it gets it gets it gets divided out right because paul amarcus is chapter two So every time they introduce a character they’re dividing it into a chapter in this particular Uh, there’s a little section in the middle with paul amarcus, but um, i’m okay. Yeah, i’m sorry, but it does end with thersemachus um Yeah, I was going to just uh to add what you said mark most people Today would have already finished with book one like they would have just like all right Let’s get to the philosophy but book one is tremendously important very important So yeah And even like I said the the the thing I I was I was resistant at first to this chapter thing I’m like, there’s no chapters. Like what are you guys talking about? And now i’m like, oh Oh no Because in in play if you want to talk about plays and I don’t know that much about plays I’m pretending to be an expert but there are things that I I have heard people who do know about plays, right? One of them is that there’s no non-characters in a play Right, and so the setup of the play the fact that it takes place in a house for example, or At somebody’s house for a barbecue is a character in the play Right, so plays are all characters. There’s no non characters. There’s no npc There’s no non-character players in a play a play is all about that and so the the the chapter one is not like the character of of With encephalus or whatever, right? It’s actually the setup And then really chapter two is the introduction of the first Character as we would see them even though the quote the other characters or the main character in socrates has already been introduced So if you think of it as a play it’s like oh because there’s all sorts of different literary Tricks that they use when they’re writing a play as opposed to a regular book or a story, right? Which which is different or a a myth, right? They all have different forms that they take and so when you think of this as taking the form of a modern play Maybe maybe it’s an ancient play again. I’m not a play expert or anything, but it’s like oh, okay So there’s a character here in one which is the character of the setup of what’s going to unfold, right? It’s the container into which everything Uh gets gets uh gets drawn right and and placed and and then it’s like oh I can now I can see the chapters I’m like, of course there’s chapters here. It’s a play So this chapter two is after they arrive at the house and this conversation was so cephalus, right? For chapter one was the very beginning after Chapter two is at the end of the thercimachus discussion about justice being the advantage of the stronger It’s when they conclude that discussion somebody have a can you Write down here where the ends of each chapter is there should be End of chapter one is the handoff from cephalus, right to polimarchus That’s okay. Yeah that’s the end of chapter one and then the end of chapter two is basically when uh What’s his name gets all upset right? Thercimachus My audiobooks got 10 chapters. I was in chapter one like three four times probably Am I really off on this? Oh, because that’s all Really? I must have messed up. Yes Me too. I’ve read the the first book Means like because so the first book is four chapters as you say, I think I’ve read all the four So the so yes, so the first chapter is only the setup It’s not really going to the discussion Yeah, the argument doesn’t start until chapter two Okay, everything everything else is kind of set up and then the the argument starts when the hand when he hands it down to his son To take over and have his fun or or have his interaction with socrates and that interaction is what causes the the dust up with uh Theracemic gets there, right? Yeah, and yeah There’s also markers here All right, most things should have it’ll say like, uh, um 331 abcd Yeah, those are those are manuscript markers, right? Exactly. Um, those those should be universal for every translation Yeah, that’s up to yeah, it is so 326 is where the chapter three starts Yeah So my my book the end of book one for me. It takes roughly 44 pages And it’s at the at the end of the theracimicus stuff Which that’s about one-tenth of the book. So an audio book, you know 10 chapters each one hour That’s that’s what i’ve got here. Uh the end of the theracimicus stuff On the end of book one. Is that different from you guys? It sounds like it’s different Yeah, I don’t know I think the same but I think different from okay Did so what do we do did we want to proceed with paul marcus? So paul marcus is sephilis’ son and he goes to the next justice idea. Do we want to proceed that way man? Manuel, what do you think? Yeah, no like we can go on like Yeah, that’s fine. Okay. Yeah, why don’t why don’t we at least cover that? Yeah Are you guys gonna get into theracimicus today or next week? We should pause For time next week. Yeah Yeah, that’ll give me some time to read it again because that’s the good stuff too. So That’s where the beatdown happens It’s an argument with the postmodernist. So that’s very Seriously, well, so I I want to catch on to this idea, right? Like that that there’s this adversarial thing or whatever there’s this this thing of being scared but like I’d like to reframe it differently right like like these people they come into the conversation and they have their strength right So what they’re doing is they’re establishing their arena because they like socrates like you can play in my my play Play art like i’m not i’m not gonna play your game You’re gonna have to come and and drag me out of my game and because I I know my game and like You can’t beat me at my game that’s effectively what I feel that that is happening And and I to to go back to these to these three personalities right like they’re They’re they’re starting from different principles right and like the way that I I framed it for danis. I I think they’re like like some sort of evolutionary pressures, right? So so If you have your gut right like your your emotions right like your basic emotions they’re they’re gonna Train systems in a specific way, right? So if you have uh an embodied entity that can stress test the system from from the passions perspective, right and then The heart is is more related to the social realm right like to social relations living up to things And and you have to stress test on on that level as well for for a system to be functional and then And the headiness is is more on the ideal right on the abstraction side of the equation and and every system that is functional also needs to be able to to to resist that and I was I was playing with daddy around it was like yeah, like maybe Maybe that is correct. Right? Like maybe that is actually the three frames that you need to impose upon Something in in order to see if if it will hold like if it is actually true and like if you if you can’t Have these these frames go here Or if you can’t account for all of them, then you you have Something seriously lacking right like so one of the things that I I want to find out is like, okay, like what is what is socrates actually doing right? Like is he’s He’s obviously privileging a certain contextual framing In in order to make his argument or let his argument make itself, right? And is is is he correct in in the way that he’s approaching that like or like like What what is the reason that he’s choosing? The angle that that he’s taking on these things All right, can you can you summarize real quick manuel the three the three frames that you’re outlining for determining say truth good and beautiful Uh, yeah, right. So so one of is is the passions, right? So So when when there’s a society like there’s people That that aren’t emotionally developed right and like they’re basically children I think they’re gonna they’re gonna put the drugs in their arm if they get drugs they’re gonna Drink every every evening if they can’t do that, right? So so that’s that’s that’s the level of people that that is going to manifest themselves in society and you need to account for that and then and then you have the people who who are drawn by by Charisma by courage right like there’s there’s this this this social Dimension it’s and and that’s that’s that’s the life in society, right like it’s it’s It’s the communion effectively It’s the emergence in in another way and and and that’s Living in the spirit, I guess the best way to to describe that And and then there’s there’s this intellectual class right like there’s the the bureaucracy which which is Trying to to do discernment towards the future, right like up but also out into the world um, and also back in control Would that just be control uncertainty? So the bureaucracy control uncertainty? Yeah, well, you know it would be the I think he actually goes into this later in the republic as well I it would be be the regulatory right Having these these three aspects right like they they need to have a place right because they have a function Right like they’re necessary in some way um And and so so so you need you need to have a system Where where they can commune where they can come together, right? Like if you if you if you don’t have a system that can hold these three at the same time Then you’re gonna have a problem right like now you’re you’re out of balance the map on I can have in earth mediation in the middle noose same else appetites we you Well, you can loosely map it like that, but it’s not a direct yeah, that was my problem I can’t map it to the three frames, right? I can map two of them and it was like I get the intellectual and like if you think about it if you look at the the soul like you have the appetites or if we’re going to look at the polis the the equivalent would be the people driving the trucks and building the roads and Doing the manual labor and you have the people at the top the the top which are embodying the ideal or The first point of contact to the ideal and then you have the middle which integrates the two Yeah, but I don’t I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s integrating like I actually think they’re separate Well, but yeah I think I think this is the this is the problem if you wanted to make a distinction here And I think you can I think it’s fair to say that there are only three main human draws Right passion charisma and intellect And and all of a sudden that that you could you can fit a lot of behavior and a nice simple model like that Um So, why did I go there? So just to kind of I can explain why I resonated with what Manuel was saying this is This idea of like the passion intellect and what was the other one? Um What’d you say charisma charisma so thinking thinking about those factors Like as as the argument proceeds like constantly think as it fractures out right thinking about that With respect to whatever frame you’re in that’s something that I it’s kind of new to me I guess like typically I get I get stuck in one of those things And so when I learned this from Manuel this morning, I was like, oh, that’s really cool I’m gonna have to start applying applying that more Let’s see what happens So anyway, that’s that’s that’s why that’s why I found interesting about that. Um Yeah, it’s really cool. But the question is is it correct right like like how do you even figure out whether it’s correct or not? Right. Yeah at some point you have to just employ the pragmatism and I think it’s good right It’s so once you have the larger frame figuring out how the actors are acting within the the passions the charisma and the intellect Which one they’re holding up at the moment can tell you a lot about how they’re going to behave within that within that larger frame Right and then figuring out where their attention is right get get this back to the three frames the stuff I have on On navigating patterns, right which is you with yourself you with nature and you with others, right? It’s like okay. So because the interaction of those things Tells you a huge amount about what’s going on around Yeah, and like like That right now you have you have nine boxes, right? They have three by three and I think I think you probably can set on another tree on that and and then you you can appeal to almost anything universally like like that Well, you can locate something. I don’t know if you can appeal to it. You can locate it within a frame Probably with just the six but maybe it takes a night it doesn’t doesn’t matter to some extent tree by trees nine But yeah, so so but the point is not to to science it right but the point is to Develop the intuitive understanding of of that it’s a valid category that you can have a relationship with and and then you can you can just like When when you sense it, you know where you’re at right like it’s like Grounding you in in your relationship to the other person because you know what they’re doing The thing that Manuel said that clicked with me was it’s reciprocity that has to be trained It’s to gain proficiency where I don’t have proficiency To to understand like which of those things the other person is in Like that that that’s what I found useful from what from what meant what I learned from Manuel this morning is That’s a skill that you could work on right? That’s kind of that’s kind of what I learned So Yeah, and and so to go back to this idea of an intention right like i’ve i’ve had many group conversations where where i’m like Trying to figure out like Where someone’s eyes at and like what are they looking at right? Like like just Be with the other person and be with the way that they’re attending to the world right and like you can you can learn two things Right either I should be doing that as well or like they’re doing something horribly wrong And this is what’s wrong with What they’re doing right and and either of those is is is really useful right because It it it develops And well a way to self-reflect as well, right because like you’re You’re letting lose of of the objects, right? And you’re you’re starting to participate in the relationship right like that people have or that you’re having and that opens a a new way of being Yeah, it gives you that it gives you that sense of you know when when is it what is the point At which I should be self-critical Right, and what is the point at which I should stand to my? And That’s that’s really valuable to people because that’s where they that’s where they get caught up right because they can always go Well, you shouldn’t be standing your ground anymore. You should you know give up to To the other person and it’s like really is that is that what I should be doing? Because I don’t you know, I don’t think so, right? So To go back to the text a little bit So there’s this piece in 33 to I think Physician administers the appropriate dire remedies to the body and then the cook Cannot be described in the same way right? Like I think he’s going into trees there as well Um So Do we have any opinion about about? What’s happening there? Do you mind if I just go through the notes to set the context sure so the polymarcus’s definition of justice is that justice is Doing good to friends and evil to enemies and the reputation of that is that the just man never does email Never does evil even to his friends when something inflicts harm on a horse the horse deteriorates in the excellence of a horse Similarly to injure a man is to deteriorate his excellence, which is justice That’s what socrates says to at least to refute this argument A horse by his art cannot injure a horse nor can a musician by his art make a make men unmusical Similarly a just man by justice cannot make another man unjust thus only unjust men injure other men To do evil is never just So that’s that’s what that’s that’s kind of my interpretation of the polymarcus argument on justice. Now I found the the idea of the art Like the con the the so we he introduces the art and the excellence words here Um, so that’s that’s kind of just one I wanted to frame Uh, well, it’s not polymarcus starts with seminities argument. He doesn’t make his own right? and I think that that’s important too because You know, he you know, it’s explicit that he’s a poet and uh Poetry is especially repugnant to palado And so we have to keep all that in mind because again, it’s all set up there’s a bunch of setup going on It’s very subtle And people people gloss over it like always poetry cares like whatever Like doesn’t doesn’t he could be he could be a sci-fi writer. No It’s very important that he’s a poet right all of these it’s that whole thing about uh, uh, About you know play if you put a gun on the wall, right? You better use it by by the end by the end of the act or something, right? There’s all this so so there are no details in this Because it’s a very concise text. There’s no detail here. That’s worth skipping over like it’s all Super significant maybe not in the moment, but it it is super significant to the overall Unfolding of the story. So the fact that he’s kind of a poet and it’s already admitted sort of up front Well, you know who can really know what poets mean when they talk because we’re kind of interpreting them anyway So it’s you know, it’s kind of like I think I get what he means because he’s a poet but he’s a poet So it’s okay to you know to have that loosey goosey attitude Because that’s actually really important to what socrates does Yeah So one of the things that stood out there to me is that they used the word evil and then in another Translation they used harm. I’m like like why are you putting evil there like because Especially in relation to justice, you can’t have evil before justice like Yeah Yeah, yeah, it’s harm. It’s not evil. That’s that’s for sure What is difficult with I think with reading this is uh, the definition he set up for his terms Uh the perspective of Of socrates at the time was different from us Regarding the definition of the world when he for example says justice There is two sides of it. There is state management side and there is the individual virtue and he jumped on the different notion without Saying to us he states speak about state management or he speak about uh Individual virtue And it’s the same thing for other for injustice adjustment Sometimes I had to think about what Really he’s talk about is there like a sub definition of his term I I don’t I don’t think he’s making the distinction. I think he’s actually the whole book is him saying that those are the same thing Yes, because the perspective is like for example At the time beauty is a virtue For us right now. It’s not a virtue like beauty is like you’re born with it Good, that’s okay or great art But it’s not a virtue itself virtue for us is being under or giving back something but for them just being beautiful is a virtue that’s how they they they They think of it So this is one of the things that slapped me in the face that I thought was really cool about the book in that I was pulled out of mechanistic thinking kind of like how we were talking about money like is money good buy in and of itself Well by by whom for whom are you good? You know like the context matters in the same way with with with with justice um Um, oh my god, what’s my what’s it gonna say? Oh my gosh. I’m sorry. I lost my train of thought Oh, basically the category bending. Yeah, like you said the two aspects of justice So like the way that socrates is able to bend categories it forces My attention on the relationships of everything right? So I have to look at this whole integrated system now Right, yeah, it’s like everything’s dependent on everything if I change one thing I have to refactor the whole system, you know uh, you know, so I I found that to be like fascinating just um personally So so I I would say that maybe that’s always true Right, which you’re just not thinking that way because that’s that’s the thing that I found out like like all of these people And this is the scientific mindset was like what are we gonna just gonna cut cut cut cut? Because it’s like no they’re whole things They’re always talking about the same thing. We’re just relating to the sameness. We’re just relating to the distinction Well, yeah, so at the core of the problem of categorization That’s why I like the introduction of the concept of the art and the excellence in the end the end of the eye sight Right. It’s like you you need those things you need you need you need those things Otherwise, what are you what are you going to build on? So right when we since says today we say virtue and we say justice and we can’t we are not speaking the same language Right because we you know, we’re missing something right? So this is this was kind of the first thing that sort of slapped me in the face and be like, oh, this is interesting I wonder That’s why I wanted to you know, talk talk it out. Um, you know So well that that I would argue that’s the materialism, right? And the science comes in and says well, we know how to deal with materialism because we’re science What you do is you divide things up into these categories categories or self-evidence like whoa, wait what? Right into manuel’s point. They’re not that’s not true Right and had they engaged with socrates they’d know that because socrates The the place where the socratic method works the best is to show you that science is complete garbage And cannot explain the most important parts of the world true truth good and beauty and right to the earlier point like We don’t have a sense Not of the virtues right so not merely of beauty and truth and goodness We don’t have a sense of the concept of virtue That would allow us to engage with true the good the beautiful Right when because I and I had this conversation on my live stream last night, right? Like what do you mean by being as good? How are you justifying that rationally? And I was like no, dude I’m not justifying the rash. I’m taking rationality. I’m shooting it in the head. I’m digging six feet down Burying it and pissing on its grave. Okay, that’s what i’m doing to rationality and i’m telling you that i’m Starting from the point of being as good and then maybe we can talk about rationality But i’m not i’m not trying to rationalize something like being as good But i’m not trying to rationalize what is true the good and the beautiful there’s no rationality that can be applied They’re not they’re not they’re not able to be put into scientific categories And we don’t have a sense for virtues are the things that are immune to science I Principle because it can’t be reduced past that I think The the the goal of socrates is not to To be just in a way. It’s not the purpose of the first book. The purpose is to be happy Um, I would say like the goal is the happiness And I think he when he said when he talked about justice like in the state management is more about Uh, how do we rule properly? and then for people is how We become more happy. Is it advantageous to be just or just? And so the goal we fix in a simple Implicit way is happiness and he doesn’t debate This is the ultimate purpose here. I think how I perceive it So other philosophers may think differently in making well you have to separate What is just? and um What make me happy And set up different priorities Okay, maybe I need to act uh just Before and then make myself happy but in in socrates he he He just set up he just his goal is to be happy and then he found In a way that being just is your Your emotions to have to be happy Yeah, I don’t know what what definition of happy you’re using but I think already in in in the in the first chapter We we went over this right like he he was saying well like just just being a good a good man, right a good old man with money and like like a good man without money, right and and there was this element where Where there is there’s a A detachment of the good from from the pleasure or whatever, right? But but there’s there’s also A reference to the peace of the soul, right? so if you if you want to if you want to conflate happiness with with peace of the soul But like I I wouldn’t call peace of the soul happiness I would call that something else and and in order to get proper peace of the soul Like if you look at stoicism, right like you need to like go over a bunch of things which which is not a pleasant Experience so There’s a bunch of sacrifice which which is obviously implicit in in the ancient thing, right? Like like you sacrifice is normal, but Yeah, I don’t I happiness is not a modern version of happiness At least the happiness doesn’t come into the book until very late. It’s uh page 39 in this pdf Well, they get into it with theresimachus stuff too when when they say yes the unjust men lead by obligation The unjust man theresimachus makes the argument that the unjust man is happier than the just man when he makes a case that the just Man is miserable and therefore injustice is more advantageous than justice and socrates does dismantle that but this I think that idea flows into the idea of like the Categorization problem is is a mathematician a mathematician when you’re making a math error, right? So the thought leads into that Another like it I think I think it leads into like the problem of how we categorize things again uh There is two arguments. There is the the the most part at the beginning The unjust man had feel dissensation remorse and then he speak about the soul the example of the soul and He say how? How What What is the quality of the soul? and then therefore If we don’t act according to our soul we begin to be unhappy An argument like this. So there is two arguments the rumors and the solace how I saw it and So you’re making a statement about Being just and being just Is more advantageous than being unjust. So I think it’s it’s more like Yes happiness arguments it’s not desired happiness I Would I would maybe call that joy, right? Like yeah, I don’t I don’t buy that happiness is a very modern idea like extremely modern like the ancients didn’t have Yes It’s being fulfilled it’s being accomplished Uh, it’s uh, I would say it’s a bigger version of happiness Mm-hmm. So the distinction that I make between joy and happiness is Happiness is is an egoic thing, right? So it’s it’s it’s errors, right? It’s a fulfillment of errors That’s that’s when you’re happy. Oh, I got my present that makes me happy right while while enjoyment is A consequence of you Witnessing your participation in a bigger body right, so so if you’re if you’re part of a community or part of part of a company that finishes a big project, right and You can have a sense of pride in in in your role in in your contribution in in in Like you can share the honor that is bestowed By by the manifestation of what happened and like that’s enjoyment and I think enjoyment is is the the proper way of Yeah Of being Emotionally fulfilled in some sense. Well, this is yeah, this is actually really important So I just did a bunch of a bunch of quick research very quick research, right? So i’ve got this book which He’s generously sent to me for christmas because he’s the best person ever and I’ve got this pdf and in the pdf they’ve got commentary Okay In the commentary happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy. It’s all a modern person talking about happy. Okay, it’s not in the book Not in the book If you contrast this with this translation actually Oh The translation talks about it differently in the pdf entirely differently so in the pdf it’s um So That they minister solely to their masters advantage and happiness and not in the least degree to their own Okay, that’s a very important wording In this book that’s not what it says at all it says to their masters happiness at their expense Right So that’s a denigration of happiness as it’s very clear. It’s very clear in the alam brisbane The happiness is not is is is not the important part and and this again this is relatively far in the book This is roughly just chapter three, right? It’s the third character that is in yeah absolutely Yes, I want to say say that it reinforces my thing right because this is uh, the the abdomen right like the passions, right? And so what is the passion seeking the passions is seeking happiness, right? So that’s one of the three frames and I think if you’re in in the perspective of the passions happiness is the highest value Yeah It can also be experience or pleasure or Yeah, those all lead to happiness right and that’s that’s that’s a red flag. Ooh, why is the ego the highest thing? Well, well you you can have passion with injustice What You can have passion desire you can feel free to desire with being in just Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I was I wasn’t making a justice claim. I was making a value claim Right, the problem is if happiness is your value you can’t be just the justice right off the table immediately uh Yes, but What is exactly the goal then how how you see it? What is what is the goal of being just like what is advantageous and disadvantages to be to being just because he i’m a bit of uh at the end of the book at the end of first book, maybe this is not the question to ask right now, but No, no, I think no It is the question to ask right now and I think there’s been a great deal of debate over this and and maybe Ethan will correct me if I get this but I think what what my buddy jack said and he’s got a phd in this sort Of stuff. Um, I think what he said in his series is that there’s a great deal of confusion Over what the goal of engaging in things like justice and the virtues really is And that the modern’s modern people and I think jack is actually like me not a fan of of the modern sort of interpretations It’s something like happiness, but that’s actually not the way the ancient greeks would have thought of it And and if you think about it for four seconds, you realize why it’s like well happy when happy now or happy later Because those two things are in conflict all by yourself You don’t you don’t need to get into are the slaves making the master happy, right? Is the master obligated to make the slaves happy and Right, it gets into these difficult or I would argue impossible situations, right? And so it’s worth asking Well, well what what is the goal here? And I think I think actually in the setup They do kind of address this They address this in that it’s a play Right. It’s a play with with with characters and the first set of characters Is the setting of the book, right? And so The the way that they’re that they’re actually playing this out and and and talking about it is as something coming down from above and through the ages via the old people and so the value of justice Is is through is expressed through the emergence from the old man And that’s also again how they draw them in to this conversation, right is they have this sort of banal high level Conversation about something that you know, they’re like wait a minute you you guys are just talking about things like wealth and and how it should work as though You know, you’re leaving all the detail right leaving all the good stuff. How did you get there? Where’s the rationality? Explain yourself, sir. Explain yourself, right and then they and then they Shifted into into into justice right from from money and show that the principle of money can’t be used on the principle You know can’t be used as a principle to apply to justice and so The the the ethos of what they’re doing And this is an ethos we maybe don’t understand it’s pure exploration It doesn’t have a specific aim in the moment Because they’re exploring a virtue and you can’t explore you can’t aim at a virtue and explore the vert Because if you’ve already aimed at it you you’ve set your course in some sense You already oriented a certain direction and that is the socratic trick is to say oh you think you know justice, huh? All right. Well, uh, where’d you get that from? Right, and it’s just the why it’s the three-year-old why Why why why question over and over again socrates just does it a little bit better, right? That’s that’s his ethos. So our ethos would be well, why are we discussing this, right? But I don’t think the ancient greeks have that I think they had that more playful You want to call it serious play right or the more playful attitude towards? Exploration of something they took for granted as important which is a virtue in this case a virtue of justice What do you what do you think? Yeah, I think so and and it’s well It’s helpful as well to see like where do you even get the word virtue from because people might use it kind of oh You know virtue is kind of doing good or something like that. But the as far as i’m aware the greek Use of the word word virtue is is something like arete. So it’s like peak right? So you’re You’re you’re looking to that highest thing And you know, you don’t need to justify that the highest thing is there because it’s that’s just the mountain right? That’s the greeks sweat. Where did all the greek gods live mount olympus? Which was one of the tallest mountains they could see at the time I think and and so that’s That’s something to to to look at as well. So they didn’t have to yeah, they didn’t have to justify and justice as being something that was You know needed needed to have any other place it existed and then it’s just kind of let’s play around that Let’s see. Well, what if we play around with well, how does money how does money relate to it? And this is this is why I like yeah, are you done? Sorry? No, no, go ahead. Yeah This is why I like the thinking along the lines of the the monster the beast and the man is because You can just ask this why question to anything like okay. Let’s take paulie marcus justice is doing good to friends evil to enemies Well, what do you mean by good? How do you know you’re doing good? Well, how do you know your friends are your friends? What do you mean by harm? What do you mean by enemies or if you go to trisimachus justice is to the advantage of the stronger like Well are all rulers infallible? How do they know what their interests are? What if their interests are not what they think they are? What if you’re annoyed at your boss and then it’s actually what you need you need you need that in order to sharpen yourself like You know so that you could take you know, it’s like how do we know how do how do you know yourself? Like they’re all this complication, you know um, and so it’s by That’s kind of what I mean Why why when I when I said i’m like blown out, you know You get like and socrates does it with like two three sentences, right? It’s so he’s so efficient that he can just quickly like push, you know and blow you out to like boom Yeah, you’ve got to you’ve got to zoom out and look look be more periscopic Um, so right, right and that is that is his trick in some sense But but I think what we’re what we’re actually trying to get at is that so when you say well, what’s the telos? So what’s the goal of of the discussion of the republic? I think the way the greeks view it is that virtues exist independent of relationships to other things And therefore the virtue of justice is worth the discussion irrespective of happiness irrespective of righteousness irrespective of Respect for the gods irrespective right it doesn’t it doesn’t make any sense to put it in relation to something even though Right in this pdf. He does it right in the beginning. He frames everything in terms of happiness Well, that’s not in the book dude. Like it’s clearly not in the book. I mean, it’s clearly a mistake You know what? I I hate to sit there and say well look this guy who knows all the freak which which i’ve never read Is wrong, but he’s he’s clearly this is clearly a modern projection Yeah, go ahead All right, I just just said just he’s what they’re doing is they’re ex Showing that justice or virtue. It’s not a relative thing It’s not in relative to one thing or another and that this they really get into this with uh, um with their simicus later It’s a it’s a external thing If you will an objective thing not a physical objective thing It is a quality of a connection that’s a relationship So so there there you can look at that like there’s an object, right? And then there’s the subject that that is subjecting the object right so there’s there’s there’s a Quality or a directionality of a relationship, right and then there’s the relationship itself, right? and the relationship of itself has Certain aspects right like so one of them is justice right like another one is is I don’t know like humility, right which would go to like okay like the subject How how does the subject look towards the object? Well, if it doesn’t know itself properly like how can it be in proper relationship to to to what what it’s objecting to it, right, so So there’s all of these things and and in order to be in right relationship, right or to have the true nature Of your relationship you have to account for all of these aspects, right? And that’s why justice is important, right? Like justice a a true understanding of justice Allows you to be a right relationship to the world like it is a prerequisite, right? And this is why I use the word peace, right? Because what what? Brings right relationship to the world but brings peace right? Like it means that you’re doing the right thing You don’t have to worry like you’re always gonna be doing the right thing as a consequence of having the right relationship to what you’re doing And and that’s what what what they’re going for like they’re going for a A way of of of resting yourself in something Outside of yourself something that is bigger That is justifying your behavior, right? Because because that’s what what is all going back to right? Like it’s a justification for your action like that’s what justice is right? So it’s it’s an authority And like it’s somewhere and like like I need to commune with it in some way and And the only way that I can commune with it is it I I can get the sensibility to to understand or at least understand the implications upon me of What it means to be just in the moment? Home Yeah How how is how it is the independent parts of That I didn’t saw justice as like a independent block like for me, it’s the the how he set up the Meaning of function and excellency like He give an example of a horse and the horse Is a function is to with guess we run That’s the function of the the horse and so uh the functioning itself like to to Has an independency because all he need to do good is run Like doctor Has a has a heart as a heart and he kill people and the function is healing and so the front the The function has a form of independence Nobody eyes no, but no, that’s that’s not that’s not really true True Like like you can’t do that but like you cannot participate with that Like that’s the problem like you can say well, oh, yeah like Doctor is supposed to heal me right? Like what does that mean? Does it mean that he’s gonna do like like like a laser on my neck or does it mean is he gonna put some salve or? Just tell me stuff it out No, no, we talk only about the function of healing like the the doctor the The doctor there is the person the doctor where he Yeah, I don’t know. He gets a salary. He gets some advantages to to be able to To to have his job, but the function of healing in itself is independent. It’s in a way, it’s What no, but no, but like healing healing as a process might be something but In order for it to be meaningful to me healing it needs to apply to my body, right? And now it is dependent upon me again Yes, not the function of the function of healing is uh, is there is uh the purpose The purpose of the manifestation of healing. Yes. Yeah, the manifestation of healing is Is to heal people. Yes, there is an interaction of people but this interaction is is with it ingrinated in the function in a way For me how I spy I read right now first the first book how I saw it is He gave an example of the eye. So the eyes The eyes function is to see and then the the the optimal thing It can do Is its function is to see and this is how he defined function And so afterwards he defined the function of the soul and he said What we need to do? What the soul needs and what the So the soul need to deliberate and to commence deliberate deliberate between just and unjust And command so what we need to do and if we don’t accomplish that We don’t accomplish the function of the soul. So the function is independent like It’s the one thing and then the Justice is something Uh that we that we get Advantages to be just because we follow the soul and we have a soul and so It’s more complex. That’s why we we reach How I saw it we reach form of plenitude happiness Whatever you call it because we do respect Uh your in a way your soul you respect The need of your soul because you respect the function of your soul Right, but but What What you’re talking about is is like an ultimate state All right, i’m like like I get this problem when I talk to christians as well because because Like yes, right like there’s there’s this point where The things that are important to you are the things that should be important to you And then when you do the things that are important to you, you get a sense of fulfillment and you’re doing the right thing It’s like yes, it’s not important to you. It’s important to your soul. That’s That’s the same thing but like that’s the point that you end up at it’s like when you keep focusing on Doing the right thing for your soul the things that Are important to you are the right things for your soul at a certain point like you will become The person that is an expression of your soul Right, but that’s that is only after you know what your soul needs and like there’s a whole like tons of steps before that and and you you can Miscultivate your soul. So that’s a little bit the problem that i’m pointing to That’s the that’s the middle of thinking that’s actually what soccer cheese destroys It says oh you’re starting with this poet’s definition of justice. Are you? Let me show you Your your error and that’s when he dismantles it Right, and that’s why he does it because he’s a poet and there’s interpretation and Stopping to be wrong and that and and and and that’s why he does it He shows everybody effective that what they’re doing is taking for granted a bunch of things that they’re not correct about their axioms The starting points are incorrect and that’s why they’re not reaching the understanding of justice I don’t want to say they have no justice because I’m not sure that that’s fair, right? But there’s got to be an understanding of justice Their their understanding of justice is right because starting in the middle with all these assumptions Happen and and what’s and what’s right and what’s sold and what’s right? It’s like well, you sure about that because here comes soccer cheese to tell you otherwise It’s a good question we some there’s the the specificest scene gets really into this, you know I think I think we’re for sure going to talk about this next week And you know, so I think we’re kind of jumping ahead Did we want to kind of go ahead adam? I was gonna I was gonna ask if we wanted to kind of start to wind things down I don’t think we yeah, we didn’t really even really dig into the polymarket stuff about the horsemen and art um, but Adam did you want to say something? I just want to say yeah No, I see I I only went up to whatever the chapter one was in that in that pdf So anything kind of past that if you’re talking about throsimicus, i’m I kind of It’s just me following along then in the conversation. So I think i’d be alright with winding things down um Okay, did we uh menwell mark any did we want to talk a bit on polymarcus before winding down or I don’t i’m i’m good. I’m tired. I’m tired. I’m tired everybody good. We we want to kind of terminate this here Okay. Well, yeah, no, I I want to do Kind of a wind down right? So like I think I think uh Well, we exemplified a bunch of things right and like What what? The talking is going to be like, um, obviously the the things the topics that are going to be presented they’re going to Plays in different directions, but I I think the spirit was really good. Uh, I think uh Exploration was was nice. We went in a bunch of different directions, right? Like I hope you guys all kind of got a sense of what it’s like to Have an intention and Maybe hopefully reference back to the intention multiple times and that’s also a skill that I hope you guys Uh will be learning over time um so yeah, uh If if any anybody wants to reflect a little bit on uh On what happened like things they they found Um Good or not good, right? Like you can now have a moment of uh reflection on this so does anybody have Some comments on what happened? Yeah, I didn’t saw the the Religion perspective and the symbolic perspective at the beginning. I was not really sensitive to it Uh, thank you. It was interesting to hear about this and different perspective about this Yes Take a look again through this perspective How Is is symbolism in the beginning of the book it’s a matter it’s important and If it want to show us something Okay, so the thing that we always do after a practice because I consider this a practice is we we take a moment of reflection, right? So We want to reflect on things that are salient within Conversation right like they triggered us in a way emotionally or intellectually And we want to bring these things to mind and then we want to try and connect these things back To our daily lives, right? So so what are the implications of of this in my daily life? Is there a way? that I can use this to Make a change or whatever or go figure something out for myself Um, so the way that we do that is we close our eyes We point our eyes up like a little bit up in reverence and then It takes like 30 seconds to let things come to us So You You To close it off like I hope next time we’ll have more people We might do it in a live stream format or whatever that we have an audience interaction Let’s see How how people will react to this and whether there’s people that want to participate? In this format because I I assume people will You never know Um, yeah, so so thanks everybody for participating Uh leave leave feedback in the comments, um so that we Get your perspective and if you want to participate reach out, um, I think we’ll Provide a link to this discord in the in the video Um, we’ll be doing this on saturday next week So see y’all Okay recording stopped