https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=NcTGRYn8Ri0
When I was in Toronto recently debating your fellow countryman, Malcolm Gladwell, who I went in, I went in to debate him at the Monk Debates having a very low opinion of him and came out with a much lower one. I thought he was a totally frivolous and fraudulent man. But he subsequently had a sort of breakdown, as far as one can tell, about the event because he performed so catastrophically. And he did a podcast, which I listened to some of, in which he tried to analyze why he had lost by the largest margin in the history of the Monk Debates. Ooh, that’s rough. I still don’t feel pity. But he did say there that Douglas Murray had been trained, if only I’d known him, trained the rapier wit and the cut and thrust of the Oxford Union. And he presented it, first of all, I wasn’t, I just learned how to do it by listening to people who knew how to talk. Wow, and also by thinking. And by thinking. But mainly by example, people are listening very, very closely to how they did it and learning their tricks. Even people I disagreed with. Gosh, that’s very good. You know, that sort of thing. But it was very funny because Gladwell presented it, not only was he wrong about my training as a public speaker, but it was so funny that he presented it as if being trained at the Oxford Union is an unfair advantage. But his own disastrous, disastrous performance wouldn’t have been disastrous if only he’d have had this advantage. And of course, he’s had every advantage in life. He just is a fool. So, so what did, what did you do right in that debate? And what did he do wrong? Oh, I listened to him. Okay. And he didn’t. And he didn’t listen to you? He didn’t listen. He spent most of the debate, I had Matt Taibbi on my side, he had Michelle Goldberg on his. And I said at one point- He wasn’t so good either, fine. No. I said to one point to Matt, I said, I said, what’s Malcolm Gladwell writing? He spent the whole time scribbling on this pad and then would say something utterly inane. Right, right. So he wasn’t there. He would say something he’d already said. He kept pretending that Matt was a white supremacist because Matt had in his opening comments mentioned the era of media trusts exemplified by Walter Cronkite. And so Malcolm Gladwell kept coming back to Walter Cronkite and your great, large love, Matt, of the white male presenter. It was so preposterous. And we were bored of it and the audience was groaning. And I actually said to him, it’s very weird seeing you try to debate, Malcolm, because you listen to nothing we say. Right. Nothing. And in his sort of post-match analysis some months later, he said, I should have listened to my opponents. You think, no, you know, yeah, that’s a clever realization. But I was listening very intently. Well, that is the issue, though, of being there, right? And this is a trick to writing, a trick. It’s not a trick. It’s the secret to writing and it’s the secret to lecturing as well is that you have to be in the moment, you know? And you don’t think up what you’re going to write and put it down. I mean, you might have some sense of where you’re going, if you’re writing in a manner that’s going to guide your reader through the material, you have to be doing the thinking on the page so that they can do the thinking along with you. You can’t just present them with a bunch of foregone conclusions. No. And also on the debate stage, and I’ve ended up doing a lot of debate in my life, although it seems to be increasingly hard to find people to show up. One of the things I have noticed is that listening to your interlocutor is crucial because also the audience know in the same way that if in conversation, I mean, we’ve all had that, if you’re sitting at a dinner table with somebody and you say something and you can see it’s made them think of something that they want to say. And often it’s a joke or a story or something like that. But you can see that after they’ve locked that in, they’re not listening. Right. Right. They’re just waiting to play their record. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s not good. And it’s terrible. It’s like, it’s a sign of a bad conversation. You’re not actually with me. You’re sort of slotting your bit of Lego in and then you’re expecting me to… Well, that’s part of that instrumental use of language that we discussed before, which is the person is waiting for their turn on the stage and they’re doing that for the social kudos that go along with making the point, let’s say, instead of playing. Yes. Because it should be a play and the play should be dynamic. I mean, I had great fun smacking him around because he made himself such an idiotic target. And he, among other things, I mean, he made a fatal slip as well of being really rather rude. And I believe very much, I believe Lord Tarnak of Civilization’s lovely conclusion to that series that courtesy is the thing that makes civilization. I love that sentiment. Nevertheless, I have a rule on it, which is if you’re courteous to me, I’ll be endlessly courteous back. But if you’re rude first, I’m not one of those pacifist conservatives. Right. So I hit back pretty hard and humiliated him and the audience liked it, of course, because he was being so rude to us. He couldn’t even pronounce our names correctly. It’s not good when an audience is pleased that someone is rude to you. No. No, no, that’s not good. Well, you see, he made the mistake, he couldn’t pronounce Matt Taibbi’s name. He kept on saying Matt Tiabi. And then he started calling me Doug. Oh, yeah. Now I know that, as you know that, it’s a deliberate way. And I corrected him twice. I said, it’s Douglas. Yeah. And he kept doing it. Now I know what that is. It’s just a nasty little way to diminish the opponent. Oh, that’s like a nine-year-old trick. It’s not even a good bullying trick. Michelle Goldberg had her own version, which she does the little girl thing of, hmm, I was interested to hear. And you know, you’re not interested at all. Yeah, yeah. You’re not remotely interested. You’re gearing up for some nasty little attack. But she was totally hopeless. I don’t know why they asked her back after the one you did with her. And I actually said to her on the platform, because again, she wasn’t thinking on her feet. She misrepresented something that Matt Taibbi had said immediately after he’d said it. And I said, you’ve just misrepresented what Matt Taibbi said in front of all of these people in this hall. And I said, and it doesn’t surprise me because the last time you were here, you were on stage with Jordan Peterson, and you misrepresented what he said in front of everyone in this hall. So, sort of your habit is just lying to large groups of people and assuming you’ll get away with it. Like, why do you think that’ll work? Anyhow, so- Because it works at the New York Times? It works at the New York Times, yeah. Yeah. The Bible is the root of all wisdom, inspiration, and spiritual nourishment. The Hallow app empowers you to explore the Bible’s profound teachings and to effortlessly incorporate them into your daily life. A great place to start while you deepen your understanding of the Bible is to check out Father Mike Schmitz’s Bible in a Year, available on the Hallow app for brief daily readings and reflections. Here you can dive into an extensive library of Bible reading plans accompanied by insightful reflections and audio-guided meditations. Whether you’re a seasoned Bible reader or just starting your journey, Hallow provides a platform for you to engage with scripture like never before. Studying the Bible’s literary brilliance has influenced countless writers, poets, and artists throughout history. By studying the Bible yourself, you’ll gain a deeper appreciation for the power of storytelling, symbolism, and metaphor, enriching your understanding of literature across different genres. The Hallow app also helps you connect with a community of like-minded individuals, sharing experiences, insights, and encouragement along the path to spiritual growth. Download the app for free at hallow.com slash Jordan. You can set reminders and track your progress along the way. Enrich your education and nurture your mind and soul today. Download the Hallow app at hallow.com slash Jordan. That’s hallow.com slash Jordan. Hallow.com slash Jordan for an exclusive three-month free trial of all 6,000 plus prayers and meditations. But no, so I, but I enjoy, but I enjoy public debate when it’s a real exchange of ideas. And my, the disappointment I’ve had actually in my public speaking life has been how few times you actually do turn up with an honest interlocutor, you know. Unfortunately, because of podcasts like this, we can have a conversation which gets somewhere. But if there’s one person who goes in like Malcolm Gladwell did that night in Toronto, deciding that, and he said after, he said, I thought Murray in advance was a piece of shit. If you go in with that view, all you can do is try to kill the other person. And then nothing can happen because the other person does like a cat-like response and you’ve both just got your backs arched and like, what’s the point of dialogue like that? But that has been one of the disappointments in my life as a public speaker is I had hoped that we still would have a public culture in which ideas were fleshed out, including between different people with different ideas. And I find that that culture in America and the wider West has almost completely disappeared. Well, you know, like, like you said, you pointed to the podcast realm and that’s a place where it might well make its comeback and has. And I think there’s some really promising developments on that front because people are willing to sit and listen to a conversation like this, for example, for very long periods of time.