https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=nNznk7hl9Pg
If you have a big five personality assessment on somebody before you interview them, it would be very useful. If you’re about to interview somebody who’s high in extroversion, you need to know that during that interview you’re going to have an inflated view of their competence because you will automatically conflate confidence with competence. If somebody is high in neuroticism, it’s good to know that in advance. They might not appear very confident. They might require a certain amount of coaxing to come out of their shell. They might be nervous. It would be useful to have a tool to know that in advance so you can essentially counteract the hard wiring that you have as an interviewer. You talked about brutal selection methods and people might react to that and I would say well here’s something for people to think about. Hire stupidly and put people in positions where not only do they fail painfully over a long period of time, but they compromise the performance of everyone around them while doing so. It isn’t whether it’s brutal or not. It’s like which form of brutality do you prefer and I would prefer the preventive brutality approach rather than the consequential brutality approach. Hello everyone. I recently had the wherewithal and the honor and the privilege to discuss the business and research and personal arrangements that I’ve had with a couple of my closest compatriots, Dr. Robert O’Peel, my former graduate advisor at McGill University and my former student, Dr. Daniel M. Higgins, who graduated from MIT and under my supervision from Harvard. We walked through our business, professional and personal relationships as they’ve unfolded through many ups and downs over the last 30 years and I wanted to bring them into the picture because I have worked with them so closely. I’ve worked with them particularly on two projects that I wanted to also draw attention as they form the basis for much of the discussion that’s to follow this clip. One is self-authoring.com, self-authoring as in S-E-L-F, authoring as in writing, self-authoring.com and it contains a number of programs, past, present and future authoring that help people write out the narrative of their life, their biography, their virtues and faults in the present and then a vision for the future and that’s a very useful program as you do live out a story and it’s a good idea to know what story you’ve been living out and know where you want to go in the future and that’s self-authoring.com and the other project that we developed on the commercial front so that’s publicly accessible is understandmyself.com and understand myself provides a very thorough description of the fundamental elements of human personality, the five major traits, extroversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, conscientiousness and openness differentiated into 10 different aspects so it gives you a relatively simple shorthand for your personality but also a differentiated view of who you are and so if you take that test which doesn’t take very long about 20 minutes or so then you get a detailed description of your basic temperament but also if you have a partner and then your partner takes the test then you can join the test together and get a separate printout, a separate report that details your comparative similarities and differences and this is extremely useful. When you establish an intimate relationship with someone there is some utility in your differences and some utility in your similarities and there’s some additional utility in understanding what those are because you need to understand who your partner is and you need to understand when they’re different from you that they’re actually different and that there can be value in that and so understandmyself.com can help you understand who you are, it can help you understand who your partner is and it can understand how you differ and what you might do about that and so well with that we’ll move onward to the discussion itself so that’s selfauthoring.com, past, present and future, biographical writing and the development of a vision and understandmyself.com which helps you understand your personality and maybe understand your personality and relationship to the person who’s closest to you so thank you all for your time and attention and onward to the discussion. So today I have two people to talk to who I’ve known for many many years. First Dr. Robert Peel who was my graduate supervisor at McGill from 1985 to 1992 and with whom I’ve had a friendship and business relationship ever since, very intense and multi-dimensional relationship both on the intellectual well on the intellectual front, the personal front and the business front and so we’re going to talk a little bit about that today and also Dr. Daniel Higgins who was a student of mine at Harvard after getting his engineering training at Trinity and at MIT and who also got involved with Bob on the business front and helped me develop, helped me and Bob develop some of the measurement devices that we’ve been attempting to use in the corporate world and more successfully using in the private sphere and so I thought it would be well fun for me but also hopefully for my two guests and for everyone listening to just walk through what we learned as we’ve worked together over the last 30 years on the scientific front and the business front. I started working with Bob in 1985. I wrote him a weird letter when I was applying for my graduate training. I’d finished my PhD or my bachelor’s degree in psychology, my second update really to my first bachelor’s degree concentrating on psychology and decided I wanted to go to clinical work and I wrote him a, everyone, I applied to a letter that actually told people what I was like which I’m sure scared off a hell of a lot more people than it attracted but for some reason it seemed to twig Bob’s interest and he called me one day. I really wanted to go to Montreal to study and asked me if I wanted to come down and study alcoholism. We actually had a compatriot in common, a man I had met in Fairview years ago, the town I grew up in, happened to be a student of Bob’s and when the letter showed up on his desk he asked this person, Dave Ross, if he knew who I was and luckily I got a positive review which was quite the surprise. So I really enjoyed working with Bob. What do you remember from the beginning of those days, Bob? Well first of all I remember the letter and I remember that colleagues advised me that I should not select you as a graduate student but it was exactly the non-traditional nature of what you wrote and the deep thought that was implicit in your statements that drew me to it and that along with a basic instinct to be a risk taker was the reason why I accepted you as a student. Yeah well you know I spent a lot of time thinking about that letter A because it was a calculated risk. I think I wrote if I remember and I can actually remember some of this I think I wrote that I like to drink copious amounts of red wine and could type like a mad dog and I knew that wasn’t exactly standard graduate school application letter language but you know I thought first of all I also indicated in the letter that there were some deep things that I wanted to pursue you know that I was interested in assessing the nature of human malevolence and and that I had broad philosophical and psychological interests so there was a real serious part and there was a real I would say well comedic part in some sense and provocative and I thought look I’m gonna be working with someone for a long time and I want to find someone who actually wants to work with me and so it was it was it was a calculated risk like the one you took I guess when you accepted me and it’s funny you know because people have had that kind of reaction to me I would say ever since which is that some people like you are quite happy with the opportunity to work with me and other people think you know that they should keep me at a distance with a stick and I think maybe it’s not obvious that the lat people in the latter camp are wrong anyways um yeah so you called me up and asked me if I wanted to do some work on alcoholism which wasn’t really the specific field that I had evinced a tremendous amount of interest in although I was interested in motivation but we started to work on on motivation for for drug and alcohol abuse and on antisocial behavior pretty much right away why do you think our collaboration was so successful oh well it comes down to to who you are and how many degrees of freedom you’re allowed and the nature of the challenge and challenges in front of you jordan are produce great rewards so I think it’s as simple as that yeah well for me you know I was really thrilled that I had the opportunity to come to mcgill I really wanted to come to montreal and then you were an ideal supervisor for me because you were very practically oriented right you had a great administrative hand you had a thriving and unbelievably productive lab how many papers have you published bob um I honestly don’t know george uh 100 and a half 200 something like that yeah I think it’s more than that bob so yeah so so bob’s lab was famous for its productivity I would say and and also for the for the morale of its graduate students I mean one of the things that was really remarkable about you and often in distinction to other graduate supervisors is that you were very generous with credit you know and you gave your students a tremendous amount of freedom and you really helped all of us through the various administrative hurdles you know clearing the ethics hurdles for our research and then encouraging us both simultaneously on the career development and the intellectual development front which is a very thin line ethically right because obviously to be a successful academic there is kind of a marketing element you have to publish you have to meet people you have to communicate but at the same time you’re supposed to be assiduously produce pursuing mathematically grounded truth in so far say as you’re a good statistician and those often come into conflict and you are very very good at letting all of us know I mean you’ve produced a lot of very successful graduate students uh sherry stewart and patricia conrad and jean cigan and peter fenn a lot of very successful academics and you did an extremely good job of helping us know that it was our moral obligation to stick with the data no matter what but at the same time to develop our careers and for me also the fact that you had an unbelievably encyclopedic knowledge of the relevant psychiatric and psychological research was that was extremely useful it made our discussions extremely fruitful because I could talk about more philosophically oriented issues and you could immediately bring that down well bring it down move laterally into the scientific realm and help introduce me into the approach to the appropriate biological and psychiatric literature the current administration’s new year’s goals are to tax spend and turn a blind eye to inflation if this is at odds with your goals if you’re tired of the government playing games with your savings in your retirement plans then you need to get in touch with the experts at birch gold today for over 5 000 years gold has withstood inflation geopolitical turmoil and stock market crashes with help from the experts at birch gold you can own gold in a tax sheltered retirement account birch gold makes it easy to convert an ira or 401k into an ira in precious metals just text jordan to 98 98 98 to claim your free info kit on gold and then talk to one of their precious metal specialists birch gold will hold your hand through the entire process text jordan to 98 98 98 and protect yourself with gold today with an a plus rating with the better business bureau thousands of happy customers and countless five star reviews you can trust birch gold to help protect your savings text jordan to 98 98 98 today two rules of thumb first was accept good students and get out of their way that is just provide them with what they need to do what they’re interested in and secondly if they have really good ideas don’t ask the bureaucrats just do it yeah well you know as we work together that got more and more difficulty and we could tell even back then that the university was starting to close in on its researchers because when i first started working with you the ethics committees the so-called ethics committees were kind of a encumbrance that whose whose dictates you had to please but could in some real sense dispense with quite rapidly while attempting to stay in the proper ethical domain but as we continued to work together the constraints that were placed on our research became more and more onerous and that’s a process that’s just continued and accelerated since then but you could really see it coming back even in the in the late 80s yeah no it’s true i’m somewhat happier that i’m not there now given the kinds of constraints that researchers have to go through yeah well it’s so odd a because as we got more and more efficient at running studies and this happened a lot when i was working with daniel too we got more and more efficient at running studies and designing them partly as a consequence of being able to use computational power and so we could do studies much faster the bureaucratic impediments to doing studies multiplied to such a degree that it became more and more difficult to do them because of there were so many hurdles that had to be leapt over before you could even begin the process of an investigation and so it’s really hard on people who are quick-minded and sharp because their orientation is to do interesting things as rapidly as possible and then to be confronted continually with a bureaucracy that works out counter purposes to that certainly ensures at least to some degree that anybody who’s fast and sharp just wants to get the hell out of there yeah because you know you said this is so cool one of your management principles and this is a good thing to pursue on the front of the joint relationship between scientific endeavor and entrepreneurial endeavor you said your management principle was to hire really good people students let’s say and then get the hell out of their way and one of the things i really admired about you and never stopped admiring you for and you were a great model in this regard was that you were you know your students had areas of expertise always that you didn’t share like sega for example was a was a near professional musician you tended to take in a lot of students who had non-traditional backgrounds in some sense in relationship to psychology and i never ever saw you what would you say engaging in a turf war for intellectual preeminence with any of your students if they were operating in an area of expertise that wasn’t your area of expertise you know you you were always able to maintain like a calm authority and never be threatened by the fact that you were willing and capable of bringing around people bringing people around you who knew some things you didn’t know that was a relief and that is a great management principle well less a principle and more a realization that they were all brighter than me yeah well that that remains to be that remains to be determined so we started working on alcoholism that was really useful for me because alcohol unlike most other drugs doesn’t really target a specific brain area or set of neurological receptors it it flows through the brain like water and one of the consequences for me was that that meant that i really had to delve deeply into biological neuroscience because alcohol essentially affected every physiological and neurophysiological system in the body and so part of what i learned to do at McGill apart from developing a certain degree of statistical expertise not my forte by the way was to delve deeply into the biological literature and you were very interested in biological psychiatry so that was extremely helpful yeah remember that paper we did on genetics for the u.s congress yeah i was amazed at how quickly you were able to grasp that literature and that was a very nice piece of work yeah well it was one of the things that that was great for me at McGill you know there’s this idea in psychology of construct validation and the idea is you know how do you determine if something that’s abstract a psychological concept let’s say like neuroticism or self-esteem how do you know if that’s real rather than just sort of a metaphor or a linguistic placeholder and one of the answers to that is well it’s real if it if it’s a pattern that makes itself manifest across a variety of different modes of measurement and i had been reading a lot of psychoanalytic material and mythology when i came to McGill which definitely put me in a minority and then as a consequence of having the biological frontier opened up especially with people like Jeffrey Gray i started to see parallels between the deep biological literature neuro hard neuroscience work and animal experimental work that was done on rat brain functioning and and on the neurochemical front i could start to see real deep parallels between that in the mythological material that i had been reading and that was really what i started writing my first book when i was at McGill maps of meaning and pursued that a lot while i was working with you sort of as a side project but it was an attempt to integrate all the biology i was learning about with the with the mythology we were also studying anti-social behavior at that point and this sort of segues into my relationship with Daniel and we’ll we’ll get to that or interrelationship so Bob and i were working with with the sons of male alcoholics who also had an extensive family history of alcoholism a very specific population that eventually became essentially impossible as the dictates came down from above that half our research subjects had to be female which was a real problem for our research enterprise because we were actually researching a particular kind of primarily male psychopathology and our subjects had to be young men who weren’t alcoholic who did drink who had alcoholic fathers alcoholic grandfathers so they had to have an alcoholic father another close elk and at least another close alcoholic relative male and not an alcoholic mother because that would have exposed them in principle to fetal alcohol syndrome and and we were looking at the biological basis of the proclivity the alcoholism and we’re interested in the role of disinhibition in that right so you might say well one of the reasons people might drink is because they’re biochemically responsive to alcohol in some manner that’s either directly rewarding like cocaine or anxiety reducing like valium and barbiturates but another possible hypothesis is they’re just not very good at impulse control and so an impulse would be a biological impetus that wants short-term gratification like lust or hunger or thirst or the desire to breathe for that matter and obviously you have to abide by those dictates or you die but if you only fall prey to them then you’re impulsive and that dysregulates your medium to long-term survival so we’re interested in impulsivity bob and i started to investigate the neuropsychological literature a lot of people at mcgill were working on the assessment of so-called prefrontal cognitive ability and had developed a lot of practical tests for brain damaged people to see what focal cognitive deficits they had as a consequence of their neurological condition or the brain surgery and we started to apply that to the analysis of anti-social behavior right and jean seguin was very much involved in that so what got you interested bob in the in the anti in the realm of anti-social behavior well alcohol and aggression the the relationship uh if if you want to really understand aggression understand the relationship between alcohol aggression because alcohol is involved in and in half of murders rapes and uh general assaults most situations of violence and so it was a question of what is alcohol doing to the brain that in fact is increasing that propensity so as we were turning to sons of alcoholics and the problem of alcoholism it became the same kind of question of was there a difficulty in producing inhibitory behavior in producing inhibitory behavior as these individuals also tended to have a series of cognitive deficits as measured in terms of those scholastic performance and and psychological tests and so that’s where you started looking at the montreal neurological institute and the the measures that they were using to measure for example frontal lobe functioning as its importance in generally controlling uh social behavior right well that was the first that was the first paper i published with jennifer jennifer rothfleisch and phil zelazo right we we put together a neuropsychological battery and then we had people who were drunk at two doses of alcohol and we used high doses of alcohol in our lab which was one of the things that made it rather unique we looked at the specific patterns of neuropsychological deficits that alcohol produced and alcohol doesn’t interfere with things like vocabulary understanding or color perception but it has a walloping effect on the ability to move information from short-term storage into long-term storage even at relatively moderate doses and it really interferes with complex motor coordination although it doesn’t suppress um uh let’s say it doesn’t shorten it doesn’t lengthen reaction time per se simple reaction time and had no effect on at all that’s right so we started building a neuropsychological battery first of all to see what the nature of the overlap between criminal and aggressive behavior and the proclivity to alcoholism was but also trying to investigate why alcohol made people aggressive because it is one of the few drugs and your research was was part of what it demonstrated demonstrated this that alcohol actually does make people more aggressive aggressive i remember a study we discussed that you devised where we people were put into a bus aggression task i think where they were asked to administer shocks electrical shocks of a certain duration and intensity to their competitors in a game-like scenario low levels of shock and they weren’t actually shocking a real person that was a sham but um one of the hypotheses was that people who were drunk just didn’t know what they were doing so if i remember correctly you had the drunks the people who were alcohol intoxicated write down or otherwise record the level of shocks that they were administering and the duration to make that conscious and what happened was that actually made the drunk people more aggressive rather than less so it wasn’t merely a matter of alcohol induced stupidity it was there was real facilitation of aggression that seemed to be associated with something like disinhibition indeed and we even tried to pay them not to be aggressive and found out that that works very well with people who generally have higher iqs but not with individuals with lower iqs yeah yeah well you know the thing is people in their real life in some sense are paid not to be aggressive when they’re drunk and the way you get paid to not be aggressive while you’re drunk is by not getting in trouble and that certainly doesn’t stop people it’s worth just dwelling for a moment on the statistic that bob cited you know we did a lot of reviews of the relationship between alcohol and aggression and it’s i think you could make a pretty strong case that almost all sexual assault and almost all and a tremendous amount of general interpersonal violence would just vanish if people weren’t overly alcohol intoxicated there’s a massive relationship between drunkenness what half the people who commit murders are severely intoxicated and half of the victims of violent crimes are severely alcohol intoxicated right it’s indeed it’s always been amazing to me that when we talk about sexual assault on campus you know we talk a lot about sexism and not and toxic masculinity and not very much about the fact that it’s almost all alcohol fueled at least half of it is george yes right right at least half of it is so so we were also you and i were also talking at that point about entrepreneurial ideas you know because i guess we both had a bit of an entrepreneurial bent and one of the things that was always noodling away at us was whether there was anything that we could do that might constitute the grounds for the construction of a of a business and i remember we talked about the possibility of investigating treatment for hangovers on the pharmaceutical front and went down that rabbit hole for a while but we never really at mcgill we never really settled on an entrepreneurial idea i think one of the ideas that we had discussed too was to start a consulting business to help people who had health problems do an objective review of the scientific literature bearing on their particular health problem and that’s still a good idea although we never did do it and well anyways after i was at mcgill and i think bob and i wrote 15 papers together which was something of a record at that point for a graduate student and and and advisor collaborator i was thrilled to receive an appointment to harvard which was quite yeah that was quite the event and i went down and started pursuing the same line of research in some sense that i was pursuing with you but it had become increasingly difficult the national institute for alcoholism and alcohol abuse which in principle was designed to facilitate research kept making it impossible to bring people into the lab and actually give them reasonable doses of alcohol i mean i remember by the time you and i were done our research we were having to keep our damn subjects in the lab for like six or seven hours after we got them drunk the the nia required that we bring their their alcohol blood alcohol level down i think their eventual recommendation was either 0.04 or 0.02 half of legal intoxication they wouldn’t allow us for example to send them home in a cab and nobody wanted to sit in our damn lab and sober up miserably for six hours you know while staring at a wall and it made it pretty much impossible to bring people in repeated times because the experience became too onerous and there was all sorts of other restrictions that were emerging that made it made it impossible for us to do what we had been doing and we we got a long way on analyzing the effects of alcohol associating with opiate reinforcement and starting to investigate potential biochemical treatments like naltrexone for alcoholism so and we did it on a shoestring budget too which was also an interesting thing to do no so i went to harvard and i wasn’t making a lot of money i had to teach a lot of extra classes my wife couldn’t work because she didn’t have a green card and i was just kind of existing on the threshold of survivability you know in a in a comfortable sense but but i didn’t even have magazine subscriptions when i was a junior professor at harvard and i rode this old i drove this old rust bucket of a car that was barely holding together and i remember i phoned up the dean at one day and i said uh you know i don’t know what your policy here is at harvard but you guys hired me to do research but i have to do a lot of overload teaching just to be able to survive here because it’s relatively expensive like what the hell’s the rationale for this i was probably slightly more polite than that and he said well most of our people consult and i thought well that’s not true because junior professors don’t have time to consult so that’s just not true but okay if that’s the damn game then what the hell do i know that might have some economic value and i thought we had talked at that point about starting to use our neuropsych battery which we’d started to computerize on on broader fronts right we used it to investigate alcohol and then anti-social personality and then i thought you know maybe we could see if this battery of neuropsychological tests would predict corporate and academic performance and so i called you and and that’s when and we had a talk about you know potentially putting together a company that would be designed to do exactly that and we did like the late 1990s yeah and that’s when daniel showed up and so daniel you had done a you had done your engineering training at trinity and then at mit so let’s walk us through a little bit about your about your academic and intellectual background um i was uh i did civil engineering at trinity college in dublin and then i came over to the u.s and um i found it was incredibly difficult to find a job just to go through the the the mechanics of it so i thought well maybe i’ll just go to graduate school instead which sadly it was as shallow as that um no it probably wasn’t but uh i went to mit and i did a degree a master’s degree in civil engineering but at the time it would have been around 1991 92 93 um use of computers computer technology was getting cheaper and so it was more pervasive and so obviously while i’m there i’m not going to be busting concrete beams or cubes i’m going to be looking at what the um what the current computer technology is ai and so on and so forth people were much more optimistic about ai in the in the early 90s than they were in the late 90s and um and so i had been doing computer programming and then uh i went over to take some classes at harvard with you um i think the i think it was would have been 1995 i may have been in your first personality psychology class or your second i’m not quite sure and we started programming the um the the neuropsych stuff um the work that um that you guys had done and that jean segan had done in montreal had used a paper and pencil version of the of the psych tests and those psych tests were they were kind of modified from use with people from with clinical issues and with experimental animals so it was it was an interesting kind of a transformation of using something to detect clinical differences to detect individual differences and at the time the idea of a prefrontal cognitive ability really didn’t as far as i know it didn’t really exist people spoke about executive function but they didn’t speak about it in individual differences terms um they spoke about it more in a uh in a sort of a global like what would happen if executive function did or didn’t exist um and uh and so we were using we computerized the uh the the types of tests that you’d been using with the sons of male alcoholics and that jean segan had been using with i believe impulsive children if i remember correctly yeah and um and then uh we did the i think it was 1997 we you were teaching the personality uh class and we did the uh online computerized personality lab right right which was um and that was early web days and so we we did that we had uh i guess we did like a hundred experiments at once we did something that was right when net that’s right when was it netscape what was the first browser it would it was pretty much right after right after netscape came out it was it was fairly early um in computer days it was when pearl was the way that you would do pearl cgi programming was the way you were doing you do web stuff and um and so we essentially set up a bunch of experiments um my wife alice lee and i programmed them and um and all the kids in the class took them um it was like i think probably about 140 and they divided up into groups of five to do the analysis so we did a soups a soup to nuts um uh set of uh as you said maybe 15 20 different experimental questions yeah yeah yeah yeah well it was and it was it was this this battery of tests that i had developed with segan and bob um it took like a lot of it required gadgets and lights and boxes and it was very mechanical it also took about nine to eleven hours for a trained neuropsychologist to administer the test battery but when we computerized we got when we computerized it we got the whole damn thing down to 90 minutes and so then then we were interested in we thought well we could use this um test battery to assess psychopathology impulsivity but then could we use it to assess normative or even excellent performance and daniel and i and bob started to investigate the possibility of using prefrontal cognitive ability tests to assess academic prowess at harvard and at the university of toronto as it eventually turned out and we also started to move into the corporate world and so that was part of a an entrepreneurial vision at that point as well because we thought well i i had started studying papers that were produced by god now i’m not going to be able to remember unfortunately the names of the people who who who who produced the initial equations relating increased accuracy of selection to economic hunter and schmidt hunter and schmidt yeah absolutely crucial papers showing that so one of the things we learned for everyone watching and listening is that a tiny minority of extremely high performers produce almost all the economic outcome of a given endeavor so it’s actually the square root of the number of people involved in a given endeavor do half the work it’s like the 80 20 rule is almost a very small minority of your customers produce all your profits a small minority of your workers produce all your productive outcome a small minority of creative people produce almost all the creative output a small number of criminals commit almost all the crimes and so what that means is that if you can tilt your selection methods your hiring methods towards the upper end even a small amount and thereby increase the number of extremely top performers that you have in your organization the economic payoff to that is unbelievably dramatic so i think schmidt and hunter estimated at that point that if the u.s bureaucracy the government bureaucracy switched to accurate assessment for hiring which they’re actually bound to do by law they would save an amount each year equivalent to total american corporate profits and i read that and i thought oh my god if we can develop a new way of assessing ability that’s accurate we should be able to go to corporations and say look you know for a relatively small amount of money we can radically increase the productivity of your employees and i thought we could just make a statistical case that the payoff for that would be so great that you know people would literally be the path to our door and so that was a very naive presumption now you were put right in the center of this because in order to pursue this for your for your phd you decided to come and do a phd in psychology you had to master the neuropsychological literature you had to master the literature on iq testing because one question that came up was well was there a difference between prefrontal cortical ability let’s say the ability cognitive abilities that are dependent on the the forward part of the brain the part that abstracts action before it’s implemented what was the relationship between that and iq and most of the neuropsychologists regarded iq tests as these dusty you know ancient technologies that had been superseded and just assumed that what they were measuring was something separate but that had never really been rigorously tested and then you also had to become a master of the relevant literature on personality because personality traits like conscientiousness are also useful at predicting performance and so why don’t you talk a little bit about the development of your thesis and also the fact that you wrote your thesis at the same time that the bell curve came out and that was quite the political nightmare all things considered so let’s why don’t you walk through what you did for your phd research in your thesis well we sort of hit a perfect storm in a way because hernstein and murray’s bell curve had just been published which was the most vilified book of the 90s if you like and hernstein and murray were both at harvard although hernstein had just passed away and we had been the neuropsych guys had been speculating on the way the brain works under normal circumstances based on research that they had done with clinical populations and they essentially completely ignored the statistical methods that are required to talk about individual differences in cognitive ability and individual differences in outcomes differences across situations and so in some ways we caught a certain amount of flak from the neuropsych guys because we weren’t cutting up monkeys which seems okay to me but and they didn’t they weren’t interested in the in the iq stuff because the the intelligence research had was tainted in psychology it which was very strange because it was the most well developed from a scientific perspective and has been area of psychology and the tools that people used throughout psychology personality psychology for example were developed by the early intelligence researchers charles spearman developed a factor analysis and it was later enhanced by that gentleman from the uk i’ve forgotten his name but in thurston is it thurston yeah and and so it was very weird for somebody coming into psychology from from engineering to look at the situation and see well the most rigorous research programs that i can see in this this is probably going to irritate experimental psychologists a bit but i don’t know how else to put it were despised the area that that those things that that was essentially despised and and and a lot of academics in psychology were trying to figure out how to essentially throw stones at intelligence research even though it would be like that mean where it’s like nobody nothing and then jerome cagan iq tests are biased it was just it was that opportunistic it just to just to come out and make it and make a statement against that so suddenly i found myself and you did also being with the pariahs when we didn’t even know that there was such a situation yeah yeah it was really weird a because in existence we were driven to 100 no we were driven by two things like first of all we had an entrepreneurial curiosity about this but bob and you and i were driven i would say apart from that 100 by nothing but the desire to try to find accurate predictors of measurable performance academically and and industrially there was no not only was there no political agenda as you said we didn’t even know a political agenda existed in some real sense till you started writing your thesis and the bell curve issue blew up and we were also interesting might people might find this interesting so the neuropsychologist had really claimed that what they were measuring with their specific tests was something completely independent of iq or at least importantly independent of iq and then as we delved into the iq research and you took the forefront on this endeavor daniel we realized that all cognitive measures converge to a single factor and that really means all right it means you can’t come up with a go ahead daniel if you’re speculating about the higher cognitive functions like alexander luria’s the higher cognitive functions of man and if you’re working in that tradition and you want to you want to speculate about that in intact humans you’re like two questions away from g essentially right right you’re like well how does this manifest itself in the real world well it manifests itself in individual differences between between performance okay and what do those things have in common a lot they’re all inter they’re all positively correlated with each other right you’re at g you bake congratulations it’s 1904 you’ve just rediscovered the g factor but yeah but no we’re not going to ask that second question we’re just we’re not even going to ask the first question we’re just going to speculate about about how important things like executive function are without without saying well can it be formalized measured and does it um does it does it spread are there individual differences and then once you ask those questions it is incumbent upon you to explain why it is different than the g factor right right well that was hard on us too because we had already put years into working out the proposition that these prefrontal cognitive tests were in fact assessing something interestingly different right and then i push when we did go ahead i pushed the prefrontal cognitive ability as a construct um measure it by the prefrontal cognitive ability as a construct um measure it by the um by the neuropsych test that we had essentially stolen from the um from the neuropsych guys and the animal research guys um and developed into an individual difference construct and i pushed that as far as i could as an independent construct from g um and when i wrote up my dissertation i i and the paper the one that we published in the journal of personality and social psychology um essentially i didn’t collapse it and i pushed it as hard as i could but after coming away from that i i would not sit down with anyone and tell them that prefrontal cognitive ability was independent of g because it had a different heritage yeah well or so on this is a good indication of the kind of price you can pay for scientific rigor i mean bob and i have put six years into the development of this prefrontal cognitive battery and there was some utility in it predicting disinhibition and then you and i put in years developing the battery itself and then our discovery was we didn’t know enough about the psychometrics of intelligence to be doing what we were doing and that there was no escaping from the black hole of fluid intelligence in some real sense i mean we did get evidence that the battery had incremental predictive validity in relationship to predicting grades at harvard and the university of toronto and also on the corporate front but what that meant at best in all likelihood was that perhaps we had expanded the domain of cognitive measurement to some degree into areas that hadn’t been precisely evaluated although it might have just been that it was just a secondary consequence of additional testing with the start of the new year upon us what better time than now to start building a habit of prayer just like physical exercise daily spiritual exercise is critical to your well-being especially in a world where attacks on faith and religion are happening all around us every day hallow the number one christian prayer app in the u.s. and the number one catholic app in the world helps you maintain a daily prayer routine it’s filled with studies meditations and reflections including the number one christian podcast the bible in a year download the app for free and hallow.com Jordan you can set prayer reminders invite others to pray with you and track your progress along the way make this year your year for spiritual growth and peace get an exclusive three-month free trial at hallow.com Jordan that’s hallow.com Jordan well we we we had for our g measure of g we only use you know the ravens progressive matrix right exactly you know the block the fluid intelligence components like three of them of the of the waste so um a uh a real uh intelligence researcher like ian dreury for example is that that’s his name isn’t it yeah ian dreury um he would say you haven’t you haven’t tapped g at all you’ve you’ve only you’ve only taken two or three sub tests and he would basically want to um to find the whole thing but anyways one of the things that you said at the time was every psych uh experiment should use iq tests and that would have been if that if that reese if that sort of maxim had been used from the start uh we probably wouldn’t have um been as naive as we were about about getting away from it that’s not to say that executive function and prefrontal cognitive ability are reducible to some magical construct in the sky gee um it’s just to say that uh in psychological research things just don’t fall along the nice little neat theoretical lines that you build your career around that they’re messy right yeah well what i concluded at that time was that every psychological experiment run that involves analysis of the differences between people should by what would you call universal uh fiat be required to use both iq tests and and likely personality tests because we have these basic constructs general cognitive ability which is a walloping measure and also pretty decent measures of temperamental proclivity and they’re really basic the same way the elements in the table of the elements are basic physically and we shouldn’t be talking about any other constructs in psychology until we can be absolutely sure that we’re not just remeasuring constructs that have already been discovered and that is kind of disheartening on the psychological front because both iq and the big five i mean you can argue exactly about the parameters of the big five still but fundamentally there are such black holes that they tend to suck in every other bit of research and and invalidate it in some sense like i mean i remember we looked at the self-esteem literature for example and concluded pretty rapidly that self-esteem was nothing but low neuroticism with a bit of extroversion thrown in and there was no need for the self-esteem construct at all and i mean that just obliterates the careers in some real sense of of the people who are proposing these alternative uh constructs as real the other thing that happened Daniel when we were at when we were working together was that the multiple intelligence and practical intelligence people especially at the harvard school of education under Gardner were beating their drum extremely loudly and Gardner was proclaiming that what had always been regarded as talents there’s multiple talents let’s say although they might be united to some degree by g that he proposed renaming talents intelligence and then pursuing this multiple intelligence idea which was really just a political scheme right from the beginning because he never developed a single instrument of measurement and that was scandalous from our perspective too it’s like what the hell are you doing you’re talking about multiple intelligences in the face of all this documentation that intelligence is actually a unitary construct and you can’t measure it at all and now you’re putting this forward as the basis for some kind of educational doctrine that was also politically shocking well the gardener had written a book on the the emergence of cognitive neuroscience and in that book i don’t recall the title of the book he identified faculties in the mind that the neuropsychologists had had that cognitive neuroscience had uncovered and then his next that was a successful book his next book after that was frames of mind which is multiple intelligences book and i think that what he essentially did was there’s a very weird thing amongst um academic psychologists i’ve always found this striking um the people that they value the most are the people who are the most intelligent um you can see this in the way they interact with their students um they’re unaware of it many times but it’s it’s it’s quite noticeable but then as i said they don’t like the whole idea they um there’s a presumption that i think it might be if i may be a bit freudian about it there might be an unconscious recognition that they are conflating intelligence with value as a human right with moral virtue with moral virtue just as just with value and and that leads them to um to see this conflation everywhere even though other people aren’t doing it um i personally don’t consider people to be more valuable if they have a higher iq score but i think that there’s there may be some sort of guilt at the bottom behind that i never really understood it so what gardner did was he plucked the the the the construct intelligence out of the psychometric realm and in the psychometric realm intelligence and iq are very clearly understood there are very clear procedures for having these phenomenon phenomena appear as construct in your statistical analysis tool set to put it as precisely as i can but he just took that and said reducing if i remember correctly it was something along the lines of reducing um the sort of prospect of a young person down to one number an iq score is is of is unreasonably cruel he offered well j gould was making the same kind of arguments right in the mismeasurement of man what gardener didn’t do and he should have done and i would and i would criticize him ethically on this one is he didn’t explain that he was using a well-defined individual difference psychometric construct and he was tearing that from that domain and essentially appropriating the term for his own rebranding of the faculties yeah without without carrying through with the required research that would be necessary you want to call your frames of mind intelligences you’ve got to show me the tools that will produce the spread of variance so that you can use it as an individual differences construct in your statistical analysis for your research project he never did that he just no he just hand waved it away he said well i’m not interested in measurement it’s like well then you should shut the hell up about intelligence and you should not pollute the entire educational psychology literature with your preposterous propositions multiplying a construct that’s already extremely well understood technically and muddying up the waters like unforgivably in some real sense and stephen j gould did the same thing you know when he talked about the mismeasure of man and i’d started to understand with my limited statistical and mathematical ability started to understand factor analysis and the sorts of things that we were pursuing more and more mathematically deeply and i thought well stephen j gould is criticizing the hypothetically abstract construct of intelligence it’s like well what’s the abstract construct here well it’s a single factor oh he’s criticizing the idea that the average of a group of numbers is real because really what what it boils down to just so everybody who’s listening knows if you take a hundred questions any questions that require abstraction to answer and so that could be formulated verbally say or pictorially in some kind of abstraction if you ask a hundred people a hundred questions and you sum up their answers and you rank order the people in terms of their accuracy you’ve already produced what’s essentially a test of general cognitive ability it’s that robust and so iq in some sense is the rank ordering of people in relationship to their ability to ask to answer abstract questions or to learn abstract concepts corrected for age that’s all it is and it’s a unitary factor and so the idea that this is some sort of statistical abstraction that doesn’t really exist is the same claim that the average or the sum of a group of numbers isn’t real and any that’s preposterous scientifically i thought ghoul’s book was pretty dishonest he used the the maxim that correlation does not imply causation which you know of course correlation implies causation what it doesn’t do is it doesn’t elucidate the causal mechanism right it doesn’t prove causation and so essentially he jumped from there to the idea that that because this statistical regularity didn’t you couldn’t point to a brain area that we had illegitimately that people had illegitimately rarefied it so all right so on the entrepreneurial front and this is where things got well interesting and more complicated for all of us at the same time daniel that we were working together on the scientific front we started talking about the possibility of doing this commercially and so we built a battery that assessed people on the neuropsychological front and had a personality test built into it and you tested it at harvard and the university of toronto and bob and i went on the road to find companies that would allow us to test it in the real world and that was very tricky now bob had a brother-in-law who ran a factory in milwaukee hatco and we went to hatco and we talked to the people there and said look we’re interested in predicting industrial performance will you allow us to conduct a study in in your institution bob do you want to pick up the story there sure well on numerous occasions we went and we applied the battery of tests to all the managers basically that the entire staff and it was it’s a mid-size corporation and we went back what we did is to validate it is we wanted to look at our test results relative to the ratings that the internal ratings of the corporation which are done twice a year i believe and so we over a two-year period it was that jordan i went and tested individuals went through all the data collected the data and passed it on to daniel right right and so and then daniel published this wow i think it was brilliant thesis bringing together the neuropsychological literature the iq literature the personality literature and then laying out these three extremely difficult studies right it was hard to do the studies at harvard these were practical real world studies it was difficult to do them at the university of toronto it was difficult to do them on the industrial front and you you published that paper as you said in the journal of personality and social psychology it’s a very highly ranked journal and i remember the reviewers of your thesis even though they weren’t necessarily politically aligned with with this research protocol let’s say were uniformly extremely positive and with regard to their comments on the quality of the thesis i remember that a couple of them had told me afterwards that that was one of the best thesis they had ever read and it was something we had very much thought about and still do talk about from time to time making into a book one of the things that was so lovely about working with you daniel it’s something i like about engineers is that you virtually never said anything you hadn’t researched right to the damn bottom and you know if you’re a computer engineer you have to build something from the code level up and it has to work and one of the things i really liked about you as a graduate student was that i knew if you you didn’t say a lot i had a lot i had students who were a lot noisier than you and but if you ever said something i knew perfectly well that you had bloody well investigated it right down to its atoms and you knew the entire logical sequence of ideation that produced that conclusion remember for example you referred to john galtin a fair bit in your thesis and you actually went back into the original writings and familiarized yourself with galtin in a manner that was well that distinguished you distinguished you completely from anybody i’d ever met who talked about galtin at all your thesis was really a masterpiece of of depth and courage and clear thinking and so anyways we started oh i had a side question for you why the hell did you switch from engineering to psychology like you came over to harvard and took my class and i don’t remember exactly did you start working with me when you were still an undergraduate as an undergraduate project how did why did you come over and start working with me i mean you were a perfectly qualified engineer and on the computational front you had a you know an immense potential career set out in front of you well i had been reading uh i had been reading carl young and sigman freud and alfred adler and stuff like that and and i had taken i i i altered it with psych horse at at mit so i went over there to take your personality psychology class and and then i went up and talked to you afterwards and said this is interesting what are you doing you know shall we do something together and you said yeah sure why don’t you um why don’t you construct this instrument to help us um i believe um cook you know um code reactions of people who are in an alcohol experiment with the computer and then it just went on from there then we did the first version of the neurocognitive battery um then before we went to um hatco etc we did we redid it to make it more intuitive and easier to use you remember this summer in i think it was 1998 you and alice and i were in porter square working on that um stuffing ourselves with pastries in the mid-morning good times and yeah that was just at the dawn of the point where all this stuff became possible on the computational front so that was exciting too to learn how to do all that right oh just um to clarify something it wasn’t the the people at the jpsp said that the um that the paper that the submission was well written it was the people at harvard um that that that gave the positive feedback i don’t think you should be smirching the people at jpsp by suggesting that they thought there was anything particularly special about my paper right right no no it was it was the reviewers of the thesis at harvard no no that’s right all right so we we started then bob and i once your paper came out we could calculate the economic return that would be available to companies if they used our test battery so basically what we showed was that on the managerial front if you were scored highly on the neuropsychological assessment so which is something like an elaborated assessment or no something like a variant assessment of fluid intelligence and you were high in conscientiousness that you were much more likely to be a successful manager and that what predicted on the line worker front was more purely just conscientiousness and that was in accordance with the relevant industrial organization literature which we also had to master at the same time right because we were trying to find out what were valid predictors of industrial performance and to calculate the economic returns on that and we we armed ourselves with a set of scientific facts so what bob and i and you decided to do was to go out into the corporate world and try to sell these tests and the pitch was we can assess your new employees within about an hour and a half we can tell you who’s going to be a good manager statistically more likely we can identify a pool of people who are statistically more likely to be high performers as managers and as line workers using slightly different measurement techniques and the economic payoff of that is going to be like 500 times as much as it costs you to do the testing per year over the hypothetical five-year period of their career and we use that five-year period because people tend to switch jobs and so in our naivety we presume that if we could go out into the corporate world and say look here’s something that you could do that is really inexpensive that will generate a lot of money that people would just fall all over themselves to do it and so bob you and i went on the corporate road for god five years do you think trying to sell these damn tests and what was the consequence uh zero um experience and uh uh traveler points pretty much right uh the the uh i i recall our trips uh to chicago phoenix um we we even uh went to a uh national football league team and tried to sell them the test and they were very interested but uh right well they were using iq tests hey yeah but but the big problem with them was they they figured they would have difficulty getting the players to sit down and actually uh invest an hour and a half at any one time right right right yeah well it turns out that the better quarterbacks tend to have better general cognitive ability tend to have higher rqs yeah so what so that was also our first encounter bob with the realities of human resources and we used to joke bob and i met a tremendous number of women employed in hr named debbie and they always got in our way like we would we would attempt to lay out the case that we could evaluate people on the basis of their capacity to learn and that that was that was an element of merit and the debbies weren’t very happy with that idea because they liked to presume that you could train anybody to do anything at all and there was no such thing as individual differences and well we probably talked to 300 companies something like that mostly at the middle management level and what did we learn we learned talking to middle managers is absolutely pointless if you’re trying to do anything entrepreneurial what we learned that if you’re a middle manager go ahead bob we were debbified yes exactly exactly and i i think that’s been replaced by the epithet karen now and so other people obviously encountered more karen’s but we encountered a lot of debbies and so well we learned that talking to middle managers about anything entrepreneurial wasn’t going to fly and the reason for that was that most people in middle management are not risk takers at all and so if you go to them and you say look we’ve got this new thing that could have a spectacular outcome all they hear is i could get a lot in a lot of trouble if that goes wrong and the only question they really want to have answered is who else is using this and that was so interesting sociologically because i didn’t realize at that point how much people relied on consensus to make their judgments instead of logic like as naive scientists we assumed that if we just went out the business world armed with our statistical arguments we could demonstrate incontrovertibly the economic utility of this approach but then we assumed that people were motivated by economic utility that they would be rewarded for taking a risk that they would understand the technical arguments and that that would guide their decision making and every single one of those presumptions was wrong yeah so we didn’t sell any of those tests not really not until we started working with the founder institute and that was like 10 years later well and the experience i had trying to demonstrate to pharmacists and to pharmacies i did we did studies with pharmacies who made medication errors serious errors and were able to demonstrate that on this battery of tests those individuals who made the errors compared to a control group of pharmacists scored significantly poorly particularly in something like working memory because they just weren’t able to keep a lot of things in their head at the one time and a pharmacist’s job is one which is very dependent on being able to keep in mind that they’re filling a prescription at the same time that they have to deal with a customer at the same time that there’s a phone call there’s all of these situations that are occurring anyway our tests were really appropriate in being able to raise red flags about individuals who were going to have trouble and so we even talked to large pharmaceutical chains at the directors of personnel and the issue is they didn’t like our tests a because of the time and b because there was no face validity right right they didn’t look like yeah yeah they didn’t look like what a pharmacist was doing right right right yeah and so that as bob pointed out that’s known as face validity the test looks like it’s doing what it says to be doing and lots of accurate psychological tests don’t have that quality so we also started to understand more about the political landscape on the corporate front in america and and also why innovative technologies are difficult to get adopted i mean first of all if you’re going to go out and sell something to a corporation you have to actually talk to the people who can make decisions and that is not an easy thing to do and that’s almost never middle management and before people think that i’m down on middle managers i should also point out that they have every reason to be leery of risk so i remember one company that we dealt with they were growing by like 100 employees a month they couldn’t keep up and they really needed a technology to screen their applicants before interviews and our technology was perfectly situated to manage this but we wanted to charge them i think it was 30 dollars a test or something i think they had a budget of five dollars and we said look we just can’t do it for five dollars there’s just no utility in this whatsoever for us and we already demonstrated that you’ll get like a 500 to 1 return on investment at the price we’re charging why the hell wouldn’t you do it and they said well look we get evaluated on how much we spend per test and some other part of the company will be rewarded if there’s more productive people so we bear all the responsibility for the risk and get none of the reward for the outcome and i thought well oh my god that’s fatal and so many companies are set up like that like you’re not going to get your hr people to be incentivized to hire better employees if they get punished for taking risks when they’re assessing them and so well we learned a lot about how the corporate world functioned and and also i i learned for example why why people when they’re making business deals go play golf for example and the reason for that is a lot of the way that people in business evaluate one another for the possibility of working together is on the basis of personal trust and compatibility like they’re not doing a technical analysis of the utility of their processes hardly anyone thinks like that right some scientists think like that some of the time but other people use all sorts of interpersonal heuristics that we were in some ways unaware of when we were overestimating the degree to which pure logic could be used as a sales technique in any case bob and i went all over the u.s and canada for a long time a long long time learning about the culture of business feeling like complete bumbling fools because of course we hadn’t didn’t really have any business experience at that point and then well then we then two things happened i made contact with adai oresi at the founder institute in california and adai was trying to set up business schools for budding entrepreneurs all over the world and he really wanted to predict entrepreneurial ability and so we ran a study with him that we never published it was a private study for us showing that we could actually predict entrepreneurial performance with a quite a high degree of accuracy and then we started testing people all over the world with a modified version of our neuropsychological battery a much simplified version that concentrated more on fluid intelligence than on hypothetical prefrontal ability and we tested tens of thousands of people for adai quite successfully and that kept exam core going now that was it was hard on the business front because we pulled daniel into the business and we we tried to fund his research through grants and we threw some private funding at him although we didn’t have a lot of money and weren’t generating any capital and that you know at that time the universities were really pushing on professors to to uh commodify their research why can’t the universities produce more businesses and we went out and tried to produce a business and what we learned was that’s a hell of a lot harder than you think because the product is only about five percent of the problem sales and marketing are more like 95 percent of the problem and we also learned that the the people who were pushing this idea that scientists should produce more businesses were people who’d never discovered anything scientifically and had no idea how difficult that was and who had never produced a business and who had no idea how difficult that was and then had absolutely no idea whatsoever about how difficult it was to jointly do something scientific and entrepreneurial and the reason for that in part is those are very different domains like marketing and sales is such a big part of the of the industrial domain of activities compared to the scientific you have to understand marketing and sales deeply to be successful as an entrepreneur and and also we also ran into a fair bit of friction it was often very emotionally demanding because we had in some sense a conflict of interest especially in relationship to Daniel because we were trying to move ahead your scientific career and we were trying to produce a business enterprise at the same time and it wasn’t easy at all to keep the the ethical line straight you know how much to pay you how much we should be concentrating on your scientific career now you had got somewhat disenchanted with the idea of a scientific career but we’re very interested in pursuing the development of this battery and at the same time just to make the story a bit more complex a lot of the managers we were talking to they would dispense with any interest in the predictive tests for the reasons we already described but they kept asking us the same question which was well you say we should hire better people but we have a lot of troublesome people that we’ve already hired and we need to know what to do with them and our answer always was well we don’t know what to do with your troublesome people and the managerial literature says you should spend all the time with your best performers not your worst and so we don’t know what to do about that maybe there’s nothing that can be done but we got asked that like 200 times and so we went into the literature to see if we could find any evidence that there were broad scale psychological interventions that might help poorer performers and we settled on the development of what became the self-authoring battery and we learned that from two different literatures james pennebaker spearheaded one of them and then lockham and late lockham and late latheham and lock gary latheham did that in the goal setting domain in the industrial organizational psychology we we found out that if you had people write about complex about the complexities of their life autobiographically or in relationship to their future that they would perform better industrially and their mental and physical health would improve so we started working with the dale to predict uh creative competence and that gave us a bit of capital and then we started to develop the i think that was the right order we started to develop the self-authoring tests and our goal was to produce tests that were scientifically validatable that were inexpensive that were scalable that would do no harm and that had demonstrated validity in terms of improving performance and mental health and so daniel you want to walk through the self-authoring suite a little bit yeah this the self-authoring suite is essentially a series of writing exercises future authoring past authoring and present authoring and starting with i’d like to start with the future authoring because it’s um it gives you the most bang for your buck and essentially it’s a series of of writing exercises where you’re asked to think about what you want out of um out of life in concrete in more concrete detail than you do typically and to work out some processes um to elaborate on that on that vision of an ideal future and then to actually break up the um the steps that would be required in order for you to start making motion towards that and then to look at the impediments and things that can help you to execute those plans and so the future authoring is a good way to get people motivated and i think maybe you might talk in some detail about the study that we did at college because you’re a little bit more familiar with the details of that than i am we’ll be back in one moment first we wanted to give you a sneak peek at jordan’s new documentary logos and literacy i was very much struck by how the translation of the biblical writings jump started the development of literacy across the entire world illiteracy was the norm the pastor’s home was the first school and every morning it would begin with singing the christian faith is a singing religion probably 80 of scripture memorization today exists only because of what is sung this is amazing here we have a gutenberg bible bible printed on the press of johan gutenberg science and religion are opposing forces in the world but historically that has not been the case now the book is available to everyone from shakespeare to modern education and medicine and science to to civilization itself it is the most influential book in all of history and hopefully people can walk away with at least a sense of that yeah well we did three studies uh you and i and and bob did all these studies and so bob had a student who was working at mcgill who was interested in potentially in the prediction of performance and so we set out to see if we allowed students or encouraged students to write about their future to make a plan to develop a vision for seven six dimensions of their future intimate relationships job career education uh care of mental and physical health use of time outside of work regulation of of response to temptations friendship networks development of friendship networks to develop a coherent plan for those domains in relatively constrained circumstances right i think we had people write for 90 minutes or write about what they had done the previous two weeks for 90 minutes and then we evaluated first at mcgill we evaluated the impact of a goal-setting program on academic performance and we found that we decreased the dropout rate and these are fairly highly selected students at mcgill because it’s a selective university we dropped their dropout rate substantially and we increased their academic performance by 35 percent and you know you’d expect that universities would just jump all over that it’s like that’s a walloping improvement in performance and although they didn’t that’s for sure and then we did some work with Michaela Shippers in the Netherlands at the business school there and ran another series of studies over a couple of years showing that we got exactly the same results for undergraduate business schools but that the results were even more pronounced for men who were underperforming men in general were underperforming and even more specifically for minority men so it was this weird intervention most interventions psychological interventions help people who aren’t doing well do somewhat better but at the same time they help people who are doing well do even better but this intervention had this paradoxical effect where it really raised the bottom part of the performance distribution and that the culminating study in that sequence of studies we did at Mohawk College and we had kids come in for their orientation day and write for 90 minutes about their future or write about what they did for the past two weeks and we dropped their dropout rate 50 percent the first year which was and that that was mostly and it worked best for the men who had the lowest grades in high school and for minority men again and so we thought well this is just a no-brainer people are going to eat this up like mad because well why wouldn’t you want a fifth intervention that’s dirt cheap that reduces dropout by 50 percent and particularly targets minority men like what a deal for everyone regardless of your politics and we worked with Mohawk for what 10 months afterwards retooling our damn software to fit their bureaucratic idiocy and at the end of that which was a lot of trouble for us they just dropped it yeah that was hilarious i i really thought that was very funny yeah yeah well and also very telling man it’s like we gave you a tool it was dirt cheap that took no time that had no negative side effects that doubled the performance of your incoming students and then and we offered it to you with almost no difficulty and retooled it for your bureaucracy and we did the study in your institution and we published it and yet at the end of this whole process you basically told us that you weren’t interested it’s like yeah you you’re bloody well not interested that’s why you have such a high dropout rate among young men because you don’t give a damn and that’s pretty much the situation in universities writ large so so what we decided to do bob what we decided to do instead was just to sell this program the individuals say and we just stopped we just stopped talking to corporations and large institutions all together and that was way better like we have a pretty steady sales record now we also produced a personality test called understand myself dot com that enables people to go and do a big five personality analysis gives them a detailed report on their personality and also they can pair up with a partner an intimate partner say and they can go do the test and get their own report and then they can get a joint report detailing out their similarities and their differences and what Daniel how many how many self-authoring programs are we selling a day and how many understand myself programs are we selling a day on average now about uh i i i’m not sure i i can tell you that in aggregate we’ve probably done about six hundred thousand five to six hundred thousand understand myself um users and possibly um maybe four hundred thousand self-authoring but i could be wrong on that one well it’s no it’s a couple hundred a day anyways on on a regular basis say and the feedback we’ve been getting from people with regards to understand myself is very positive people find the provision of accurate personality information about themselves extremely useful and also on the partners on the partner front because we only launched that what about how long ago did we put the the couples version of the personality test up i think it was 2020 2021 maybe right right so that hasn’t been going that long and people tammy and i did that and did a podcast about it we even though we know each other well and we designed you know i designed at least part of the damn test i still found doing it with her quite revealing and it helped us understand each other better because the wonderful thing you are different go ahead daniel the wonderful thing about the understand myself uh process is that it gives it gives our users what you could call immediately actionable like insight into into um into what they’re like and how they respond to to to various situations and it’s it doesn’t require the same amount of time commitment as the self-authoring so um so it’s very it’s it’s actually quite a pleasant um experience um and i won’t say that for let’s say the past authoring um the people who get the most value from the past authoring don’t enjoy doing it they um and sometimes they even get angry at us for asking them to do it but to understand myself is immediately um is immediately helpful and i think it’s immediately rewarding as well right well the past authoring you know there’s a good dictum from clinical psychology that it’s better to voluntarily face your demons let’s say or the dragons right it’s you you put yourself in the zone of proximal development by adopting a a voluntary stance of confrontation with complexity and threat and one of the things we ask people in the past authoring exercise to do is to divide their life into sections epochs and then to write about the more emotionally compelling experiences right both negative and positive and yeah that’s quite difficult and it does upset people i mean the research literature indicated most of this generated by pennebaker in his and the people who followed in his footsteps basically showed that if you do an autobiographical exercise like that which is akin in some sense to both confession and to psychotherapy is that the immediate consequences are negative because reliving those upsetting experiences is upsetting and can put you into a bit of a spin but the medium to long-term consequences are very positive both on the performance and on the mental and physical health front and so you can think of self-author all of those of you who are watching and listening you can think of this self-authoring set of exercises the self-authoring suite as what would you say as it’s in some sense do it yourself well redemption but certainly do it yourself psychotherapy and you know maybe it couldn’t substitute for extremely high quality psychotherapy conducted by someone who really knows what he or she is doing but it’s a pretty damn good home activity if you want to set your life straight and i mean i think our the response we’ve had from the individuals who’ve been using it well you deal with that more because you’ve handled customer complaints and comments for years like what’s i have lots of people in my lectures who come up to me and tell me you know how helpful the understand myself program was but also the self-authoring program fewer people because it’s more difficult but people often respond to the self-authoring program in a manner that indicates you know that it’s changed their life and i used the programs we developed the programs from my maps of meaning course at the u of t right when we were first walking through the paper and pencil versions i had students write autobiographies and then also write out a plan for the future and i could watch the impact that it had on them it’s really something to be able to develop a vision for the future and really go ahead if any users are watching this and um you know i would say with the with the self-authoring suite because we all have a limited amount of time and a limited amount of energy and so if you if you’re not sure that that you can that you can do the full thing do the future authoring and do it badly and push through it to the very end if you’re doing the past authoring and you think you can only do a little bit at a time do a little bit at a time and then walk away from it come back to it reread it take your time over that one they’re really quite different i don’t think people should approach them the same way uh push the future authoring through to the end and then you can redo it again later if you want to um but with the past authoring if it’s difficult just do a little bit set it aside come back to it again later it’ll be waiting for you when you’re ready yeah right don’t bite off more than you can chew there’s no need to there’s no need to yeah and so yeah so so well we were pretty happy with the way the self-authoring and the understand myself tests have rolled out because we were able to fulfill our vision we should talk a little bit guys about some of the problems that we’ve encountered trying to keep our relationship intact over this 30-year period i mean we hit a lot of situations i mean it’s been a pleasure overall and a real intellectual adventure and a personal adventure and rewarding in 15 different ways but man we hit some pretty brutal points of conflict over the years too especially when we were trying to bring new people into the endeavor and also to retool our financial agreement say because daniel you sort of started out as a junior partner in some sense and then well as our enterprise developed and and you developed the tech the technology of the platform and plenty of the underlying ideas your role grew and and then we had to retool our financial arrangements to take that into account and that was every time we’ve had to address our constitutional agreement and let’s say that’s caused really weeks and even months of a fair bit of emotional turmoil for all of us it’s not an easy thing to to figure out exactly what’s fair and and to be able to maintain that across time what are your memories of those processes daniel the process of me insidiously taking over the whole company yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly that um generally speaking the we we had to go through these we had to go through these all right so one of the things that i didn’t want to happen was i didn’t want to be involved in a failed company and and from my intuition was that if we took on funding from outside and we tried to grow the way companies tend to do that we would that we would be dead in six months if we didn’t have something happening something significant happening on sales and i was always attracted to the small business model rather than the big shot venture capital sort of you know story and so that basically required us to do the work ourselves and um i guess what what happened was when we first started there was a i think there was kind of like a basic presumption was that we would be sort of doing this the way most businesses do it they get funding they hire people they pay them and so on but approaching it as a small business thing where all of the partners are doing the work the partners that are doing the most work exclusively on it are the ones that are taking on the most risk if you think of the opportunity cost and so that basically required um you know re over time recognizing that and then deciding that it would a the first thing was is it right for us to try this small business approach where we do things ourselves or should we do the funding route and then be what’s required in order to make it so that everybody involved is going to be sufficiently represented as a player if you like based on their risk and i think it took it was difficult i think because a good deal of the stuff that happens neither you nor bob would see it happening um you would be giving giving a lecture and i would be pounding my head against the keyboard because i can’t find out what this ridiculous bug is or whatever the case may be and and so it was it wasn’t easy for everyone to see exactly what was going was going on i had a pretty good idea what was happening because um just about a lot of the stuff outside of the business outside of the sales things which which i wasn’t part of was happening through me and and a lot of the renegotiations happened after we had decided that the um that the rubber chicken route um of going to conferences and so on wasn’t going to work so um and so that was it and i think that it was a lot of that was basically i suppose you could say it was driven by a certain aggressiveness on my part i thought it was i thought it was necessary and i tried not to be too aggressive about it and essentially you guys graciously kind of acquiescing to my request more like honesty on your part on in two ways hey so the first honesty and this was really interesting you know i’m probably more market and sales oriented bob probably is too than you and i mean that’s kind of how it’s laid itself out in the company and so we would be more expansive we had a more expansive proclivity on the sales and growth front and bob and i learned this too because we we did concept we did consider going down the venture capital route and so that route is something like well you have an idea and you test it and you get initial funding from family and friends and so forth and then you’re ready to launch your idea broadly into the world and so you bring in venture capital you hire a whole bunch of people you try to build your company into something that has a very a staggering sort of valuation and then maybe you go public and you cash out and you have your margaritas and you sit on the beach and in guadalupe if there’s a beach there for the rest of your life and that’s your vision and you are very much opposed to that practically but i think there was an ethical element too and bob and i got quite deeply into the whole venture capitalist and tech incubator scene both in the u.s and canada and what i realized eventually was that it was almost all scam that mostly what these so-called tech incubator companies were doing were was hype now i’m ambivalent about that because i have some real respect for marketing and salespeople where you have to communicate about your product and push it forward but the degenerate element of that is is a kind of narcissism right and we got tangled up a couple of times with tech incubators who were working with some of the junior people that we tried to work with who filled their heads with visions of a 400 million dollar initial public offering and this immense amount of wealth and failed entirely to educate them about the fact that if you really wanted to start a business you should go out and find some damn customers because that’s the hardest part of a business and you were very good at continually insisting that we didn’t do that that we that we kept our vision i wouldn’t say small but not grandiose and you were also extremely good at letting us know when the financial arrangement we had worked out was no longer sufficiently motivating for you for you to be wholeheartedly committed to this project and i would say of the three of us i mean you’ve staked your life on our business enterprise to a larger degree than either bob or i have by a substantial margin and you know we needed to know when you needed to be properly compensated for that so i don’t think that was aggressive aggression bob what do you think about like what did you see as the major challenges in keeping our enterprise going and our relationship over the last 30 years and why do you think we’re able to do it successfully well i think we basically listened to daniel and understood what the issue was and we need to be anchored to reality and daniel was that anchor and the anchor wasn’t being sufficiently rewarded yeah well you you were the one in in some sense that that paid the most price that paid the most price for that technically because as daniel’s role in the company grew proportionately your ownership of the company shrank proportionately mine did to some degree but not as much as yours did and so you know i mentioned at the beginning of the conversation that one of the reasons i really enjoyed working with you and thought it was such a privilege at mcgill was that you were very very fair and judicious in your distribution of rewards and credits and you know you showed that same rather largeness of spirit let’s say when we had to undergo these renegotiations and um well that’s obviously worked out very well for everybody that we’ve been able to serve with these programs but also for the three of us because this is especially over the last four or five years this has turned into a very robust and reliable business and so daniel i don’t think it was aggression on that’s not how i look at it like i really think it was a form of the same kind of rigorous honesty that you’ve brought to the programming enterprise because you’ve produced an unbelievably reliable system like i don’t think we haven’t lost any data and i don’t think we’ve ever been offline except when the microsoft servers crashed crashed and so you brought that integrity of purpose to your intellectual endeavor on the on the academic front and then to your engineering but also to your you had an unerring eye for what the difficult but appropriate path forward was on the business front and so that’s been extremely useful and luckily as bob pointed out we had enough sense to pay attention to that and to adjust when that was necessary it got very challenging again when things kind of blew up around me and i got sick because you ended up both of you ended up dealing not with me so much as with my proxies and well that put another and we also didn’t really know what to do with the fact that i had come to such broad public attention at that point too and how to reconfigure our business bob and i just decided bob and i just decided that we were going to take advantage of it just we have meetings where we talk hey bob have you contacted jordan lately because you know we want to make sure that he still thinks we’re his friend we want to be able to write this guy’s coattails well you know when you when you were talking about the vc thing um you know occasionally a very large window um birds will often try to fly through the window and they they hit the window and fall well watching you and bob trying to sell exam corp was a little bit like that and so whenever whenever somebody said oh hey this is a big let’s do a business plan let’s do this let’s do that and you take a look at the sales situation it wasn’t very difficult to see like what would be different about these people why wouldn’t these also be birds bouncing off a glass window and i didn’t see it it wasn’t it wasn’t easy to it wasn’t difficult all i had to do was say well you all i had to do was basically trust that you guys gave it a good go and then just looking at these other situations it was a very easy calculation to make um you know we’re going to be we’re going to be dead in six months because they’re not going to have any more success making sales um then we have to figure out a very low cost way of keeping this alive until we figure out what the formula is and then we did figure out what the formula is largely you you did an experiment um i don’t remember exactly when it was but you just basically uh put the self-authoring suite online you put together a website with a very simple paypal button and that gave us a proof of concept and from that point forward it was just like um oh we’ll just deal with end users they’re great um they come to us they want to use it they love it sometimes they complain to us about the self-authoring suite being a little bit more painful than they were expecting um but um but there’s no more there but but there was no more of this um you know trying to deal with a corporate structure and being bounced back down to hr and then booted out the door yeah we were able to do that because a lot of the businesses they have no issue at all and this is also this is more of a function of the size of the business they will waste your time right without giving it a second thought and so once we started going to end users it was better well we were we were on the threshold of large business deals several times like we had a a contract pending with a very large organization in new york for the self-authoring suite and it was literally on the ceo’s desk for signature and thank god it didn’t go through because we would have ended up as employees of this company and we we didn’t charge nearly enough money for what we wanted to do in our ignorance and the ceo resigned that day and that had taken us like a year of work to organize that deal and it just evaporated and that happened to us like we did have some sales successes in nine out of ten of the initial stages you know but that was another thing about uh about um the complexity of dealing with corporations is that you know you think you want to land a big fish and there’s a lot of money in that but it takes a lot of time and there’s such churn and turnover in corporations that you can end up talking to someone for like a year and then all of a sudden they’re not there anymore and that happened a lot and and that that was certainly a reason why selling to individuals was better i think our new market is great you encounter these people all the time they’re it’s so rewarding to provide these services for them um i get this through the through the emails that we get but you also meet people at your events and um that’s not that i don’t think that we would have done i don’t think we would have done better if we were working in the corporate world and working with end users no and it would have been way more annoying like the thing one of the things everybody listening should understand is that if you make a deal ever with anyone who has more money than you don’t be so sure that you’re not now an employee you know because you think well i’d like to land a big company and they’d be my client it’s like yeah if the company’s a lot bigger than you they’re not your client you are now their minion and so and maybe you want that right because you have to have a job but don’t don’t ever be convinced that there aren’t major strings that come along with that one of the things i really liked about you and also about working with you bob too on the entrepreneurial front was that i think all three of us were free enough of delusion to understand pretty immediately on the industrial and corporate front that the only thing that really mattered the only thing that was truly real was the in-hand existence of paying customers that’s the fundamental metric is like i don’t care about how your idea sounds i don’t care about the background of your team etc i don’t care about your vision of the future those things are all relevant to some degree but what i do care about is have you even been able to find one person who will give you money for what you’re producing and and we did keep that in mind and that is why we eventually turned to private users yeah people who want to improve themselves or help themselves versus companies when we were asking someone to help other people who may not have particularly wanted to be helped you know have everybody in the department do the future authoring program i remember being in school well enough to know that i wouldn’t have liked that very much right but yeah well that’s the advantage to dealing with these individuals like you said that’s a voluntary it’s a voluntary association yes and they like it and they they they want to do it and they want to do it for themselves as well each one of them is a is a mini victory right right yeah well and it’s a lovely thing i mean one of the things that bob and i talked about a long time ago and then obviously with you too is you know we were interested right from the beginning in working on the entrepreneurial front partly just because of the challenge of learning how to do it and god knows we learned plenty by going through the difficulties of banging ourselves against multiple sheets of glass window and breaking our necks over and over and over i mean our vision was to produce widely distributable psychological interventions at low cost with low overhead that would not hurt anyone and that would do people good and i think that we we have managed that to a large degree like the research we’ve done on these interventions and measures has been very solid and it’s certainly the case that the hundreds of thousands of people who’ve used our technologies now have many of them have set their lives on much more productive pathways and that’s pretty damn good thing to be able to to be to have participated in and also to have profited from and you know one thing people who are a bit skeptical about capitalism might be asking is well why the hell didn’t you just give away this all for free how do we know this isn’t greed and we spent a lot of time talking about the right price and it took us a long time to figure out what our self-authoring program was worth it’s like well if this is going to change your life how much is it worth and the answer to that was well it’s worth about what people will pay for it because that’s the actual accurate number and we we we sell it at quite a low cost i mean it it’s not the sort of thing that anybody in the developed world is going to have to strain themselves particularly to afford but we decided not to distribute it for free and we’ve never produced anything for free we’ve always worked within a for-profit model and for me the advantage of that was twofold is like we had to produce the kind of products that people would actually pay for so that was one way of demonstrating their attractiveness and value and then the other thing of course is because we’ve been able to generate some capital as a consequence of doing this on a for-profit basis we’re not beholden to any outside stakeholders governmental or private and we have enough capital so that we can produce additional ventures and daniel you’re working on some on a refitting for example of our predictive battery do you want to maybe we’ll just wrap up with that do you want to just end with a brief description of where you’re headed where we’re headed in the future sure but let me just add to what you’re saying um the people who are users when they come they and they pay for the assessments i wouldn’t ask them to do it for free because i think that robs them of their agency when they pay for it they can accept it or reject it and if they don’t like it they can ask for their money back and um and in my experience i don’t think people want free i think that’s a delusion of um of uh of the computer age the internet age but i could be wrong about that no i know i think that’s right i mean it’s it’s the case often that if i do offer content for free say that people clamor to be involved in some manner that allows them to reciprocate that’s the thing is people have a powerful drive for reciprocity and so if you offer something to someone for free well first of all it begs the question who the hell’s the product here like is it really free and second it doesn’t allow people to discharge their moral burden you know because people don’t have to be beholden to us for having done them a favor and the reason for that is because they paid us and as far as we’re concerned that’s a perfectly equal and desirable trade yeah it’s respectful yeah yeah so the um basically what i’m working on now and i suppose it’ll probably be something like um sometime hopefully over the next 12 year 12 months 12 years is a classic freudian slip there i that’s definitely freudian um but uh it’s it’s to make it so that um my my target audience for this is small businesses if large corporations want to use it it’s fine as long as they don’t expect to call me on the phone because i don’t want to go down that rabbit hole again my target is small businesses because we have a lot of small business users that use understand myself and self-authoring and they use it informally they just go there they go there on their own they purchase it they distribute it to their people it’s all voluntary there’s no there’s no hard sale or anything like that um and so um what i want to do is i want to streamline it to make it easier for small businesses and organizations like churches and so on and so forth um to be able to um purchase the understand myself um and uh and um self-authoring for their uh members or their um their employees whatever the case may be um but also i’m going to use that platform to essentially bring um the harder edged we didn’t talk about selection that much you alluded to it um the fastest and easiest way to um improve let’s say your your your workforce is to use brutal selection practices and everybody understood that until about five minutes ago um that’s why you know harvard and yale used to have brutal um selection processes most people wouldn’t wouldn’t put their their application is in red um and so uh so these ones so the assessment things i’d like to be able to bring those back to um to generally use to make them easier to use so that um so that people can um can do it can use a little bit of selection um when they’re hiring people um so that you know to avoid the situation okay so we never discussed this um but one of the least effective ways of um determining the uh let’s say cognitive ability is important for jobs that are highly complex and so it becomes more this becomes more of an issue if you’re talking about highly complex jobs but one of the tools that a lot of people use to determine whether or not someone’s a suitable fit is an interview and the hunter and schmidt research was quite plain that interviews are not very useful unless they’re highly structured interviews or even if they include some work sample and so um this is to provide people with an auxiliary of the uh to their whole hiring process which may or may not include cognitive ability but will include the big five personality assessment um you know also and um and so the idea then is is to make these tools available for people to use at low cost with low commitment um and hopefully uh the advice that we’ll have for them will be use these tools to bias your decision processes don’t use them to make your decisions just have this just have these in the back of your head while you’re talking to people there’s a lot you can derive from it for example if you if you have a big five uh personality assessment on somebody before you interview them it’s very it would be very useful if you’re about to interview somebody who’s high in extroversion you need to know that during that interview you’re going to have an inflated view of their competence because you will automatically conflate confidence with competence so it’s good to know before you go in there whether or not you’re dealing with somebody who’s highly extroverted if they’re highly extroverted they’re going to present better compared to others and in the in the opposite direction if somebody is high in neuroticism it’s good to know that in advance they might not um appear very confident they might require a certain amount of coats coaxing to um to come out of their shell they might be nervous it would be useful to have a tool to know that in advance so you can essentially um counteract the hard wiring that you have as an interviewer to be bamboozled by the brilliant and to um to to discard people who don’t present themselves in a forceful way right well and you you talked about brutal selection methods and people might react to that and i would say well here’s something for people to think about here’s something brutal hire stupidly and put people in positions where not only do they fail painfully over a long period of time but they compromise the performance of everyone around them while doing so now that’s brutal and it’s a lot more brutal than making an appropriate hiring decision to begin with and so it isn’t whether it’s brutal or not it’s like which form of brutality do you prefer and i would prefer the preventive brutality approach rather than the consequential brutality approach well i think the i think what i brutal is probably a uh too bad wasn’t it wasn’t a good choice of words but i think that it’s essentially if you’re using it’s the opposite would be to have a therapeutic view that you can essentially change people and you can convert them into something that they’re not for example and let’s just keep it in the personality realm you might have a highly agreeable person somebody who’s very high in compassion and that person has been hired by a law firm let’s say and all of a sudden this person has to go into situations where they have to act in a very disagreeable way and you know the the therapeutic way would be to presume that that person will change over time and they can over time but uh but it might be better to uh depending on your perspective to look for people who are low in agreeableness if you want to hire lawyers particularly if they’re going to be doing yeah aggressive aggressive legal action so um putting but putting the wrong person in the wrong place particularly in a complex environment where things are interconnected like for example in software they compare the most productive workers to the least productive workers and they try to work out you know you can speculate on what would be a factor of productivity and as one person said the factor is infinite because not only will an not only will an unproductive worker not produce they can actually introduce bugs and errors into the system that takes more capable people time to undo so they can have a negative impact on the overall situation yeah well the the the management literature that that i reviewed and that was back in the 90s indicated that 60 percent of managers had negative net value to a given corporate enterprise 60 right so it’s not just zero it’s it’s worse than zero and so so and you also do let’s let me just add this you do much less damage to somebody by um by not hiring them if they’re not appropriate then you do by letting them in and then terminating them after six months or 12 months or whatever right right right right so you pay the eventual price for inaccuracy in your determinations no matter how compassionate that motivation might be everybody has to pay the price at the end even you boss man yeah yeah well yeah no doubt bob you’re gonna come down to miami and lecture for peterson academy and so that’s at least part of what’s on your horizon when are you doing that mid-february oh good and and what you’re gonna do a series of lectures on abnormal psychology is that the plan yep it is excellent excellent yeah and so for everyone watching and listening this is part of this peterson academy initiative which is an attempt to produce something approximating an online university at least at the bachelor of arts level and bob is one of our stellar uh uh lecturers lined up to to work for this academy bob was an excellent graduate student advisor but i should also point out that he’s an extremely popular undergraduate lecturer he lectured about abnormal psychology which of course is very interesting field although any bad lecturer can make any field dull and uninteresting even abnormal psychology but bob was a stellar lecturer at mcgill and witty and urbane and challenging and provocative and we’re very happy to have him have the opportunity to bring those lectures to a much broader audience we hope with the peterson academy and so it’s a great pleasure talking to both of you guys today we covered a lot of the ground that we’ve covered in the last three decades and so that was very entertaining it’s been a privilege to work with both of you and quite the honor to have been able to produce a thriving enterprise despite the difficulties that has in fact resulted in helping perhaps tens of thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of people i mean that really was a fulfillment of our initial vision right because i remember we established these principles at the beginning of our collaboration right is that we were going to produce valid psychological interventions and assessment methods low cost widely distributed scalable inexpensive and do no harm and that we’re also going to stay relatively minimal on the employee front which we have because there’s basically us three and and the person that you’ve hired part-time to do customer service and so it really looks like although it took a long time for it to unfold into work it looks like we did hit the target that we had eventually set and so and continue to do that and so i’m going to talk to daniel and bob a little bit more on the dailywire plus platform about how their interest in their respective fields developed and so for those of you who are watching and listening that might be interested in that you’ll have to refer to the dailywire plus platform for that i’d like to thank them for facilitating this conversation and to everyone watching and listening for your time and attention wish everybody happy new year and to say once again thank you you two for the conversation thanks jordan great ride all right so ciao everybody yeah yeah it’s so nice to be able to sit and talk to you guys and uh well we’ll we’ll finish this up on the daily wire plus platform bye to everybody watching and listening hello everyone i would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guests on dailywireplus.com