https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=jKeyywzRG94
Do we want to as a group sort of recap from last week? What did we talk about? And then briefly, and then let’s overview that and then we can talk about reflections from last week and we can discuss intentions for this week. So I recall where we left off at the end of we got into the three virtues of wisdom, courage and temperance and we were on a quest for justice. Does anyone else recall what occurred before that? I recall there was discussion of music and gymnastics again. And then we there was some kind of coming up, coming down from the frame of the state back into the individual as though they were offering commentary on the soul. Did anybody does anybody else kind of have any? Remember what stuck out to them? Yeah, I think that was part of the theme was this going up and down again, right? This back and forth between the view or perspective of the city and the viewer perspective, the individual and how those two things interact, right? This seems to be a lot of issue about interaction and exemplification through this must be so. And if this person were perfect and this must write these other things must be true. Right. So that that seems to be like a big a bigger theme in Book Four than it than it has been in the past. Right. And wealth and poverty and luxury and all those concepts, just to see how that all works together. Yes, I remember we got stuck on happiness for a while and we underlined this point they made. We’re aiming. We aren’t aiming to make any one group outstandingly happy, but to make the whole city. Make the whole city so. Remember that. Yeah, the state set up for the good of the whole, which is a utilitarian perspective. One thing I noticed from this morning was that they mentioned like, should we beautify the eyes to degree such that they are no longer eyes? Like we have to keep proper proportions of things because we’re getting the harmony with temperance. But they did mention like they made they made a mention in the top of the chapter saying like the eyes ought to be purple and then getting into today they talk about purple. Like if you’re going to dye a garment, you need to start with pure white. As though to me, I interpreted that in terms of like purity. They may say temperance or proper proportion, something like that. But I think there may be there was some kind of foreshadowing around this concept of proper proportions or something. We happen to know what the Greek word was that they use for temperance or moderation. Casey looked at up twice. It’s on. I don’t remember the Greek word, but Casey has it in some commentary. I don’t remember the Greek word, but Casey has it in some commentary. So that is actually last week I was saying, you know, balance was kind of like one of my themes of engagement and. I don’t know what happened in my week, but I feel really good. So I don’t know. I feel really good. I feel better than I felt in a long time. Well, I’m still not 100 percent. I feel like 70 percent, but that’s better than I felt in months. So I’m starting to come back finally online finally. Balance is really important. I’m starting to come back finally online finally. Balance is part of that. Why were you feeling bad before? I was working a demanding job and working all the time. But then there were also a bunch of other issues. I had some health issues. And then there were just a bunch of emergencies, like a bunch of different emergencies. So. Sorry to hear that. But part of balance is knowing what your boundaries are, what you’re willing to do, for what. Knowing, you know, what you’re willing how much of your energy and attention you’re willing to spend on certain things. So part of that is kind of like, I mean, I don’t know if knowing thyself is a way to put it. That’s a that’s a degree of it. But also knowing yourself in order to know yourself, you also have to participate in the world and know where you are in a story. What what is my role when I’m particular? When I’m engaging in this group or at work or, you know, what is my role in this little story? Each story is a little bit different of, you know, so. And that’s part of that’s a skill. And part of it, part of it is not a skill, but part of it is a skill. Like, you know, like if you if you if you get locked up at home and can’t have to wear a mask for a long time and can’t go out, you’re going to lose social skills. And and that’s going to maybe change the way that you view yourself with respect to people your age, maybe even so. All right, so I’ve been doing kind of lots of rambling. Anybody else have any reflections on last week? Um, there was the one we spent some time on this. Uh, they’re kind of going over some of the laws and, um, talking about where we’re looking at the spot here. What is left for us to deal with under the heading of legislation for us? Nothing but the but the Delphic Apollo. It remains to enact the greatest, finest and first of laws. So I remember we went over that. They’re saying we we have no knowledge of these things and in establishing our city, if we have any understanding, we won’t be persuaded to trust them to anyone other than the ancestral guide. And this God sitting upon the rock at the center of the earth is without a doubt the ancestral guide on these matters for all people. Something that modern people would probably tend to skip over that little section. So in other words, there’s you can’t just you can’t reason is limited and it must be well for them it’s coming out of out of the dead. But it has to come somewhere that’s not reasonable or not not rational, right? Ancestral guide. Another thing I don’t know if it’s it’s I mean it is irrational to some extent, but one thing that like the guardians are known for having a strong self restraint. And I think one one theme that it hasn’t really like I don’t think hasn’t really come up at all. Certainly not in like a mature, more mature way like motivation. I mean, they talk about the concepts of self mastery. But one of the things that I’m kind of interested in is from for the Greeks or the or this tax or the ancients like what is that gusto? The thing where you go from being at rest to not at rest that that strength like what is it that force? What how do they view what you know what we would call maybe like, oh, I’m in a state of motivation. Because I you know, that’s that’s also kind of where my mind is that too. I’m starting to kind of. Heal up a bit. My vitality is coming back a little bit. It’s not back yet, but I’m getting I’m. You know, probably four weeks from now. I’ll be turning the corner to like all right. I want to I want to really like work as hard as I can. I’m feeling like I want to work as hard as I can at something. That’s kind of something how to determine like what’s what what what should I pour myself into? What’s worthy? What’s a worthy mission, you know, or or whatever it is. How do you even come to form that discernment? Yeah, that’s all. So that’s something I’m I’m interested to maybe explore. Maybe that’d be my attention for this week is that’s something I’m kind of curious to explore. Learning discovering the passions getting maturity with your passions or whatever, however, you want to put that. But that was kind of a theme that sort of is crept up in in some in the past little bit. So that’s kind of where my mind is for this week. I think if there’s anything in here regarding that no, it’s not not for Yeah, yeah at the end. Um before Which one you mean at the end or like so they they they talk about the the three virtues wisdom courage and temperance And then they kind of and then they talk about the the nature of desire They have they say there’s the simple of desire and then there’s a qualified desire Like if you’re thirsty and they say because we’re on a quest for justice For the for the sake of for the sake of what we’re after which is to explore justice We want to just talk about the simple desire of thirst as as an exemplification of something I don’t know exactly but there is like anytime you have like a desire you can Right, they talk about a desire. They’re not talking about the passions. So yeah, fair fair enough I was I was really interested to know what word they used when with for desire in this text. Um So I’m curious about that I don’t think it’s when they’re talking When they’re talking about that they were They’re kind of setting something up so they could examine justice I should have come through this last night Um, I I know I remember what you’re talking about they’re like, okay, so Doesn’t that which forbids in such cases some into play If it comes into play at all As a role of rational calculation while that drives and drags them to drink as a result of feeling feelings and disease apparently I think you’re under sorry Go ahead. Oh, I think you’re close with there is an explicit line where they say good is the universal object of desire And I think that’s what they were using with that qualification metaphor Is oh sometimes if it’s cold you might want a hot drink and if it’s hot you might want a cold drink We could qualify the concept of desire for thirst but for us for the I think for for the The metaphor that we’re using we’re just going to want to say, um Justice is then i’m actually having to connect this. Um If good is the universal object of desire Justice is I can’t remember they get they this is actually this is at the end of the chapter They they connect these dots for you. Actually, I just didn’t finish it Anyway, I guess we’re kind of jumping ahead here, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah All right. Yeah, do you You’ve got an intent do you want to uh, did somebody else want to do reflection and intent? Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize that’s what we’re doing Yeah, we’re still beginning. Yeah, I mean I can I can reflect I mean I don’t know that uh, I don’t know that much uh much around book four came up for me this week, but it’s always uh You know helpful to have that framing that they use Because it is a unique framing Uh, you know when you’re thinking about other things And then uh, yeah, I my intent is just to get a better understanding of The second half of chapter four because actually I kind of struggle Where they were going with all this You know where on me with the well if you have one man then it must be so and then All this for the city and it’s like, oh, what are you guys talking about? Why are you being crazy? Crazy Um, so I think that’s just wearing on me But uh, but yeah That’s that’s what i’ve got for reflection and intent Um Reflection Yeah, um It seems like they’re there Reflection on the four virtues of three virtues The three parts of the soul And how to Sorry, it’s gonna sound dumb. It’s probably been the same thing for me How to become be a more just soul Cool Probably the same thing i’ve kept saying Um, yeah, I really wish I would have come through this again Wow Hey, what did we do now go ahead if hey, did you have any thoughts about chapter four the first half of chapter four? and Or thoughts on how you want to engage with the second half of chapter four? Um, I actually don’t remember what I read but um, you were speaking about desire I remember in the symposium Socrates said that you only desire what you don’t have What you are lacking? So if you desire goodness that means you are lacking in goodness if you are already good Or you believe you are already good you don’t desire goodness, right? Because it’s something that’s part of you already Similarly when we think we are lacking in money then we desire money We we liking love then we desire love And if we lacking governance self-governing we desire governments To govern or to be governed Hey kz Hey, we’re wrapping up reflections from the first half of chapter four and then so good intentions for second half chapter four Um Did you have any did you want to did you want to offer any thoughts upon? things you recall or things that struck it stuck out to you from last week Or last week how you exacted any of it? Or if not, you know how you how you want to engage with second half of chapter four Nothing immediately comes to mind Okay exacted or taken from it this time, but uh I had a lot of trouble like understanding not a lot of trouble But like understanding what exactly is going on with the with justice in the second half of part four So I want to see if we can pick it apart Casey’s on my side good. I’m happy here actually. I really struggled with the second half. So yeah All right, so we’ll get started then um I will go through the remainder of the notes I had from last week over the three virtues And then beyond that i’m not super well prepared so but just bread get to be the breath first overview They talk about you know, they they establish a methodology Where they say okay, we’re going to introduce three virtues which is wisdom courage and temperance aka moderation And then after that we’re going to go search for justice We’ll see if that colors anything Once we do that, they say well, whoops our methodology didn’t work. It was broken Uh, we got to come up. We got to figure out what else to do Then they kind of talk about desire for a bit and they kind of talk about their method and then they adjust the method a little Bit in some ways. I didn’t quite understand then finally at the end of the chapter. They basically Have okay. We have our first kind of proposal for a definition or they kind of put the idea of justice explicitly on the table for the first time So let’s kind of roll back to the three virtues we didn’t go through this too much But i’ll just kind of start to resume where we left off So wisdom is this idea of it needs knowledge, but not the kind of knowledge of a good carpenter if you have epistemic Okay epistemic And they propose that Wisdom is exemplified by wisdom courage and temperance And wisdom courage is a kind of a way of saying Epistemic and they propose that Wisdom is exemplified by the perfect guardian, which is the guardians, which is the smallest class Um, and they say that it’s the kind of knowledge which resides in presiding and ruling over over one over a part of oneself so I they seem to be establishing a self mastery as an integral part of Or or maybe a prerequisite to something like that to wisdom They’re the ones exercising judgment it seems Yeah, the guardians would have to right they’d have to be the ones That’s interesting. There’s only one It’s judgment is reserved for the one class and the least amount with the least amount of people in it The top of the triangle That’s not that’s yeah, that’s not surprising. That’s how it has to work Like you can’t have everybody in charge. So Yeah, it reminds me of like so throughout my job, you know I show up you do you’re interacting with customers and stuff and they want to like they want to know a bunch of things about what you’re doing and Like why was my delivery late or something like that and they want to know where were you before this? It’s like I thought that’s information that I’m not going to give to you because you’re not equipped to make a good judgment, you know Because they don’t have awareness of the whole situation You know, they don’t they’re not taking into consideration the whole job whatever blah blah blah like i’m sure it’s a lot worse with like, um, like if you’re a doctor or a contractor or something like that and The homeowner’s wife is in there over your shoulder. It’s like what are you doing there? You know, it’s like listen like this. You’re not you’re not a contractor You know, you’re not in a position to make judgments on these these things. You don’t exactly know what i’m doing You don’t have the perspective that I have Yeah, and especially with with like deliveries like what came before is too small a piece to worry about in some sense, right? Because you’re yeah, it’s like the whole path It doesn’t concern you, you know, like you It’s not it’s not that it’s like i’m trying to keep something secret It’s like this information isn’t going to help you make a judgment because you you you can’t make a judgment on this right So the idea that you just mentioned is that the guardians exercise justice This is part of I wonder I wonder what kind of concept the greeks had for this idea of motivation It’s like what’s let’s suppose you you’re why you’ve been instructed properly such that you know What justice is and you can discern properly like, okay. I know the state’s headed in this direction. I know I need to do this thing Did they not have this concept of like I mean, there’s augustine for sure. Yeah, like august like I do the things I hate Did they not ever introduce it like this idea of like cognitive dissonance or Uh, uh this idea of like my heart You have the passion. Okay, it’s all passion. It’s all passions. Yeah, we’re ruled by the passions in the ancient greek thought and We can manage the passions to some extent and it’s all passion That’s that’s what’s actually driving people is passion. You guys can do a much deeper allegory and of that later in In In the republic I think like the man the lion and the beast that’s much I don’t know if that’s in the republic or if it’s in the The tripartite I think it is in the republic Right here I don’t know if he makes that analogy though I don’t know if that analogy is in this book, but the tripartite is definitely here tripartite is is in the book. Yeah, I don’t know about the Was it the lion the man the monster or whatever? Yeah, I don’t know about that vicki talked a lot about that though. Yeah So after wisdom we have courage So there’s one other thing that I think is important They mentioned on wisdom that it the difference between the wisdom of the guardians is that it’s ordained by the law As opposed to the like the barbarian or something like or the brute or something like that where they can kind of act They can kind of act in a way that’s similar to the guardians, but it’s not ordained by the law What’s there what’s the what’s the word for a law there then because Let me see This is right i’m we’re always confusing law of man with law of god In modern times we’ll say and that’s a problem because the ancient Greeks didn’t think of it that way a natural law They have a differentiation between that. Well and some people make three differentiations, okay I’m sorry They mention this on courage, but I agree for I suppose that you mean to exclude the mere uninstructed uninstructed courage Such as that of a wild beast or a slave. This is in your opinion is not the courage which the law ordains And ought to have another name I think it’s probably closer to natural So I looked up the word that the that was being used lawlessness and that was um, Paranomia which Is translated in uh, and I can’t remember which bible as iniquity I think in even translated as transgression in in a bible translation. So it’s it’s There’s a It’s a type of moral transgression I think so I I would have imagined that would be the same thing here Um, oh by the way, okay right here Let’s see then is there some knowledge Possessed by some of the citizens in the city We we just found that that doesn’t judge about any particular matter but about the city as a whole And the maintenance of good relations both internally and with other cities So I think that’s a good thing I think that’s a good thing So There we go good relations So we could I mean we could spend some time on that what’s a good relation maybe not Is it related to the courage or was that well, I think good and it’s like I think once we get deeper into goodness, we you know, we could flip back to this and talk about good relations, but um anyways I put a pin in it. So that’s a good question. Like maybe maybe first we could we could Ask what how did the text describe courage? I’m not sure I actually have an explicit definition in my notes But one thing that jumped out to me in my mind It’s like courage is like the thing that you would that you’re compelled to do You die for and and so let me read this passage Of the opinion respect respecting things to be feared What are they and by what nature which the law implants through education? And I mean by the words under all circumstances to intimate that in pleasure or in pain or under the influence of desire or fear a man preserves It preserves and does not lose this opinion. Shall I give you an illustration? I think that they’re basically trying to define courage is that thing That thing that you stick you stick when you when you stick to your guns that that’s that thing underneath that I think is what they’re saying encourages And they give some illustration and so is What’s Do you does that does that what yeah I guess what’s the difference between somebody who sticks to their guns and doesn’t have a right relationship with something though? I mean, I don’t know but that’s That’s the foolishness foolishness, right? So so like the slave or the brute or whatever is foolish if they’re sticking to something that’s saying not a principle Or something they can’t properly embody or whatever Okay, um Yeah, that makes sense preservation of the belief Has been in Inclicated by the law through education about what things and sorts of things are to be feared so if you think of like Well, if you think you know like honor your mother and father you know when You would well part of you wants to think that oh my my mother or father’s Being behaving inappropriate or not. I’m not even gonna say that is um annoying me or making me upset having courage and and Remembering that law of to honor them and that you honor them irregardless of anything else So, you know something like that. Like I know my mom is Really upsetting me right now But nonetheless, it’s the law and I must adhere to the law to honor her Regardless of of her annoying me or or or doing something stupid or whatever It almost a sense to look past the thing look past the thing in you that’s trying to identify her as doing something stupid Um in favor of honoring her That’s what i’m thinking what I get from this That courage to adhere to the law Yeah, that idea of courage is the preservation of belief I find interesting one time when I was in college Uh, I heard a good definition for anger in a bible study once at a presbyterian church It was they said anger is when they’re talking about jesus You know overturning the tables in the market because they’re turning that they’re desacralizing the temple by Towing it into a marketplace taking something that’s sacred and doing you know, that’s our uh, I heard here Anger is energy expressed in defense of something. I remember I heard the definition and it kind of stuck with me for life Um, but i’ve always conceptualized anger because because it could be good or bad, you know, like it’s it’s like that fuel where it’s like Oh, man, I I need to I need to defend we need to defend you know um So that’s interesting. I’ve never i’ve never thought of courage In a similar way of preserving a belief Uh, but i’ll have to play with that So, I mean, I don’t know does that mean anger is connected to courage in some way. I don’t know Um, I I think we can we can definitely at least say this anger is wielded by courage Um, in fact, they actually get into anger later in the book, um They get into anger later on how it um, it can be wielded by I think they say that anger is actually associated. I think you’re right. I think if I remember correctly They associate anger with the middle part of the soul which is um, and they say that it can succumb to the bottom part the the passions and it can also succumb to Um The top part and I think what they they resolve on is that it ultimately is the servant of the top part For the sake of the whole we’ll have we’ll have to remember this when we get into that section of this book though They one thing I did that did stick out to me on on courage is they said it’s a kind of salvation And they said like about the nature of things to be feared and not feared So like right it’s like there’s that they they introduce that fear element again um But they I didn’t really know what to make of the whole concept of it. It’s a kind of salvation um I mean they’re using very extreme language Can we think of it? Can we can we think of like it? Well, they’re they’re speaking of these eternal these are very heavy eternal like is a kind of thing It’s like if you have a heavy eternal Way of looking at things it’s gonna cause you to look at things differently, right like Yeah, I mean we we talked about the extreme absurdism in the book, right? Where they’re totalizing everything in universalizing everything and like if we have one good man, it must be so right? He must be perfect. Oh the implication the implication is that in order to be courageous you have to have an eternal lens If courage is salvation of what ought to be feared then you can’t be courageous without having that on your mind You have to be thinking about this thing. That’s Should make you fearful. Otherwise, how can you be courageous? That’s That’s on reading text, right? I would say that’s all that’s true for all the virtues That’s why they say it’s through good education and physical training and know the right things Let’s think about maybe maybe maybe this will help let’s think about this this class This is going to be the warrior class. And what does the warrior class do they go out and they um they They preserve the identity of the city And to to their death, right? So they’re they’re they’re completely staking their life on the preservation of the identity of the city That’s why they’re warriors Yeah, that relationship to the city is I think is important it’s not so that they can get a good payday Because they did they uh won the battle, you know, they’re not mercenaries It’s not it’s not a relationship of a mercenary it’s a It’s interestingly um on that I think that the the lower class if that’s what we want to call it the the bottom class one at the bottom The merchants and the the laborers that’s actually where all the wealth is held in this just city The the upper two classes don’t possess any wealth All the money is in the lower class I’m not sure how much money but um the the wealth of the city and so much that it has wealth is held by the lower class They talked about the difference between those other cities that are not perfect have the problem of well There’s they they’re divided into the rich that are going to war against the poor in in in this model What is it kind of uh, is the wealth relatively uniform? I guess I don’t know if they mentioned it Is there more of a stronger equivalence among people? At least some with regards to what that’s how they start the book is there a book for isn’t it? Yeah, okay. I just didn’t remember. Okay Um, yeah The guardians yet they derive no good from it. It’s the argument they start Derive no good from it. Where’s the argument? The guardians yet they derive no good from it it’s the argument they start Derive no good from it. Where’s that? At the very first paragraph at the beginning before yeah, that’s the opening That’s what uh adamantius says They derive no good from it. Yeah, you’re right I think they’re well, they’re speaking Relative good. Yeah, they’re talking in terms of wealth Yeah, right, okay Right, it’s just wealth, right? Yeah But socrates is like making the argument that they have to be the highest in virtue in the rule and they have to sacrifice In terms of material goods wealth and things like that in order for that to happen I think it’s book five. We’ll get into it but I think I think even go as far as to say that the guardians aren’t even allowed to have Any personal possessions possess any material? Yeah, but but but but you can’t equate the books right because they’re different cities They’re not taking book four and adding to it they’re starting over again in each book And what makes you say that oscillating Because that’s the whole format of the book is they just keep postulating new versions of city Okay, well I can see that Yeah, so it’s not like they’re taking because they they danny mentioned this earlier, right? Like it’s not like they’re taking this they destroyed it. They said oh no, this didn’t work. We got to start over Yeah, socrates I think he says somewhere near the end of book four It’s like well if there’s one thing wrong with their conception of justice and we’ll tear the whole thing down and build it anew Something right and then they keep doing that over and over again. That’s that’s kind of the format of the whole book So Well at the end of book four they’re like he’s like, okay, let’s move on to what bad cities look like That’s actually the beginning of book five Take a little detour. That’s at the end of book four Is it oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but at the beginning of book five they’re like wait, hold on a second. Let’s take a little detour Okay So anything else on courage? Yeah, so I mean well they they give I I noticed that the connection between There’s an influence of desire or fear to courage, which I again I don’t really know what to make of it But they keep bringing that up if you think about courage as being this A thing that is the function of courage is to defend us in the guardians is to defend the identity of this city Then I’m just thinking like why is that not the case of the the husband men? You know like the husband men, I guess his mind is not really there I guess his mind is like it’s kind of like maybe like a more I mean like why is why is the carpenter? Uh, why is why is the carpenter not burdened with this? I guess what need for courage or what is it? Or just a lack of is he just a less courageous person like they they do go on to say Well first, I don’t know if we want to pause because later they they get into the purple analogy Which I let’s go let’s go through this first because I don’t know how it’s relevant, but it may be relevant But it may be relevant, but they they said in when dying a garment purple, which they’re saying is an illustration for courage Uh, you have to start with pure white if you don’t start with pure white there’s a solvency to taking on the dye and I don’t know if that solvency of like What does it mean for a guardian to be pure starting or a person to be pure white? And then what does it mean for the like the solvency of or the stick to itiveness for courage to stick? when there’s The appropriate fear or desire. I don’t know. I don’t know exactly but that’s kind of what I Uh heard in that in the in the purple They’re illustrating the principle that You can’t just take purple and apply it to anything and get purple And there’s two reasons for that like one is the blending of colors as such which is you know That’s understated and the other reason is because not everything can accept the dye And so you so let’s suppose you had a justice like let’s just suppose you had a justice or some justice paint or something Right. You can’t just hand that off or slaver it over something and get a just thing That that’s that’s the analogy and that’s correct at least according to the the outline that they have here right, but by courage is really the the the What would you call it the override of your desire for the things that you have to keep some principle in place? Right the courageous man is willing to risk his life Right for whatever principle it is And so it’s really about sacrifice Right. It’s about yeah You’ve got all these desires like the desire to live or the desire not to not to have conflict or whatever But you’re willing to throw all that aside to make sure this thing that’s bigger than you is protected Yeah, i’m kind of going off an outer space here but I like when you said you can’t just put justin justice paint anywhere I’m thinking about like, okay. Well if i’m gonna paint a layer of layer a couple layers of primer that’s that sounds very like I don’t know repentance or like submission or like What is what is it? What is it? What is it to you know, what is it to paint on a layer of primer in your life? I don’t know you know I don’t know if they mentioned that at all To sacrifice something you have today, right to prepare the surface prepare the way for for tomorrow And you know that might be meditation it might be prayer, you know That there’s you know, I guess I guess the christian argument would be yeah, that’s christianity, right? It’s paint. It’s it’s preparing you the way for the eternal uh Dance or whatever, right? Inosis emptying Yeah, something like that There’s some stuff here. Okay And pleasure is much more potent than any powder washing soda or soap. Okay. I found the spot that you’re talking about The power to preserve through everything the correct and long Implicated belief about what is to be feared and what isn’t is what I call courage unless of course you say otherwise so yeah, the the the the the appetites are the Are the most potent in the ability to guard against those? um Something else worth noting here Um says then I accept your account of courage accept it instead as my account of civic courage And you will be right we’ll discuss courage more fully some other time if you like at present our inquiry concerns Not it but justice and what we’ve said is sufficient for that purpose. So there’s a little Or i’m not i’m not sure if they come back to courage in the republic or Civic courage By the way, there was another disclaimer at the end of wisdom I noticed uh Right before courage he says then we found one of the four virtues as well as its place in the city Though I don’t know how we found it I think it’s interesting that he puts those little Those little disclaimers there not to be an absolute not to claim absolute. Um knowledge on it Yeah, that is interesting Yeah, even their methodology itself just sounded like they were describing some ambiguous circumambulation When they say okay Well, you can start by talking about the thing itself and then start talk about things around it Or you can talk about things around it and then hopefully you get to the thing itself Right and then they and then and then they go on to say oh our method actually was wrong After they go through the three virtues they say that somewhere. I don’t remember I didn’t write it down but you know, they get to the point where they’re like, oh the whoops Like we got to come up with a different message because this didn’t work but But yeah, yeah, it’s it’s so you know, like you mentioned like where where are they standing? Though it you know, you keep saying that ethan like how are they able to see these things? Where’s the monotheism coming from or you know when they say this whenever they say an ought? Like what what are they standing on when they give an ought? Or yeah, you know, it’s a good question. I don’t know. I mean to to certain to the people that were reading this Maybe it would have been a little more obvious than to them than the people reading this were reading it. But like You know the greeks back in the day Obvious to them that were a little bit closer to the culture that this came out of But to us moderns, maybe not so much Uh, there is another disclaimer this one’s for john vervecki and um There’s a disclaimer about the limits of dialogue which I thought was interesting i’ll i’ll bring it up when we get to it Yeah, I think that’s that’s really the You know the the crux of things is the fact that In ancient greece, they were all Polytheists like there aren’t the the all the axiomatic assumptions that philosophy is based on to the ancient greeks are Assumptions that come from their religious practice And it’s very much things like the republic are very much a struggle with that economy between our assumptions from our practices Right and like and again, it’s right in the beginning of the book What is the framing for the book the framing for the book is a celebration of? some polytheistic crazy goddess or something and Everything proceeds from there. It’s not hidden It’s not it’s not accidental. It’s not entertainment. They’re being explicit about something very very very important It’s definitely not that’s your point. Ethan. We don’t have that framing Something that we’re missing Um books you can’t you can’t really you can point at it and hint at it, you know in the text But you ultimately can’t write down You can’t you can’t You can’t explicate framing like you can’t explicate context. I mean there’s Certain things but you can never wholly contain context within text By the way, there’s another reminder Of that coming up here when we get to justice. We talked about it last week Um Hunters um using the hunting analogy So is there anything else here on um courage um Should we remember that this is the account of civic courage Um And again reminding ourselves that this is kind of a a whole holistic view of the polis so The spirits the spirit of courage is going to be more embodied by this class of people What do you mean about holistic view of the polis what does the polis mean Polis is just the city. It’s okay. The people yeah the group of people that are grouped Yeah, I guess let me I I tend to go ahead I’m just didn’t get hung up on the word city Is that are we not even supposed to I can’t remember are we supposed to call this a city or not supposed to call it a city? It’s a polis technically I think yeah, I think because remember I got hung up on that word Anyways go ahead danny I was just I guess in my mind I I tend to think much more that the the concept applying trying to apply the courage the concept of courage to the individual like it’s commentary on the soul now If it is civic courage like if it is the case that we’re defining civic courage I think the if they’re defining it for the purpose of applying it to the individual Not for the purpose of having it function in some political frame Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well the thing is we’re you know, we’re kind of we’re projecting this on a polis so that we can get a better idea of the spirits these these virtues courage and And whatnot and those these virtues exist independently of any individual they don’t come from the individual There’s things that the individuals adhere to Um, so so whether it’s big on the the scale of a city or small on the scale of an individual, um Nonetheless, it’s still the same thing Um, but later on in the book, you know, they’ll contract they’ll um Condense it that’s the right word or contract it down to These these four virtues to the individual they actually do that at the end of the book here well, what’s interesting what I mean by that is like The first when they mentioned courage the first exemplification of that they say Uh, here it is right here. Why I say, uh, everyone who calls any state courageous or cowardly Will be thinking of the part which fights and goes out to war on the state’s behalf, right? Like ideally if we were in this ideal utopia, there wouldn’t be war amongst states, right? Maybe so maybe right if we were only concerned with like singing holding hands and singing kumbaya Uh in our in our philosophy we wouldn’t make that our first move in defining our term, but they do right which I uh Right is and therefore like what I take away from that is that there’s something about that aggression That is an important aspect of Courage in the individual that’s that that’s kind of how I read that Does that make sense what i’m saying? I’m talking about the way that they the way that they introduce the concepts I don’t think that they’re like I don’t I don’t know if they’re saying like Literally effect in fighting Is the thing that we’re trying to optimize for when we introduce the idea of courage Like courage is the thing that the guy who’s the best at fighting that oh, that’s that’s the most courageous guy I don’t like that’s what they said, but I don’t think that’s what they’re getting at You know, um, yeah, I would get hung up on it. Um, I mean you can it’s it’s Think of what it’s analogous What about they say Does who would call it who and calling the city cowardly or courageous would look anywhere other than To the part of it that fights and does battle on its behalf It’s a different statement. What’s the what number is that? I don’t have the numbers. It’s like a third. What are you looking for mark? Is that what you’re looking for? 429b. I think Yeah, that’s 429b Well, i’m just trying to I need to contrast with my translation here let’s I So I just think it’s a funny way that they bring about the concept of courage, right because Anyway, so I guess like in my mind I would only do that if I I would only introduce the concept in that way if I thought that there was some kind of facet of aggression that’s important Right. So that’s I guess that’s that’s the way that my mind reads this text a facet of Aggression that’s important to to to undergirding the yeah courage like the content of courage saying he’s saying like from the outside You know like your carpenters are courageous. You wouldn’t call the whole city courageous It’s not peacetime ideal like it’s not the ideal State at peace because it has alliances like they already mentioned they said like the thing the thing is there’s no such thing as peace Ultimately, I mean if you think about it, I mean they’re not they They don’t have this here but in a fallen world There’s always going to be something like for example, like, you know one thing that comes to mind is Remember that a couple months ago, there was a hockey player I think he was a Russian Orthodox or something and he’s like, I’m not they they wanted the team to go out there and do a warm-up for Trans rights or something like that and he’s like, I’m not gonna do that that goes against my principles Like that’s the type of I think that’s the type of courage Or that’s the same courage that we’re talking about here is to is preserving those higher laws Calling out evil like it, you know, that’s something that we say a lot here, you know First of all when you’re calling out evil, it’s in a it’s it’s Forgive this word It’s relative to the higher principle to a higher principle that you are adhering to so it’s like that is bad To Keep it keep it out of here, you know, like And it’s a potential sacrifice Like and that’s that that’s what makes it courageous like the man who loses nothing by speaking up is not courageous Yeah, yeah exactly not there has to be an element of the potential of risk of the potential for loss of courageous I don’t see this. Yeah, what what you read is not in my translation. That’s for sure Here relating You know their ability to fight with courage It’s okay So right after that they say then courage is a kind of salvation salvation of what of the opinion respecting things to be feared What they are? And of what nature which the law implants their education and they go on and and I mean I already read and and I mean by the Words under all circumstances to intimate and pleasure and playing blah blah you stick you stick to your guns no matter what right? There’s that there’s that stick to itiveness that that resolve And they’re describing that as a kind of salvation So, I mean, yeah, I guess our starting point doesn’t really matter but my translation says preservation I think right Um, could you think of it this way is like you have you know, we see a lot of tv shows and stuff with That take place in medieval Monarchies and whatnot like someone important. They have a bodyguard, right and The bug up the purpose of the bodyguard is to preserve the royalty or the important person I’m wondering if you could think of it that way preserving the higher thing Yeah, well they swear fealty, right and they’re gonna fight no matter what and yeah Yeah, um I remember Last one I watched was the new game of thrones Um, and there’s they have some really interesting themes in that show because you have two different people um That that these two two, uh, whatever we’ll call them warriors are sworn to right? It’s some really interesting themes because the people that they’re sworn to their their actual principles Or what they represent may or may not be questionable. But what is not questionable is that they’re subordinate warriors They are they are 100 embodying this virtue of courage and they’re like it doesn’t matter to me what The the person it doesn’t matter to me what my master is if they’re a good or a bad person. I’m still committed What i’m committed to Is my virtue which is courage and i’m going to defend them to the death. That’s my purpose and my role and these two guys go out and And they’ll they’ll fight each other, you know Irregardless of what the the higher principle that they’re serving is because it’s not really their concern They’re not arrogant enough to believe that they can make the determination. This is exactly this is where it becomes difficult for people Looking down looking looking up from being down at the level of the person You can’t tell the good from the bad But we always look at stories as we know which is good and which is bad And then we infer a character behavior from that, but that’s all hindsight bias Like the good thing is good until he goes bad Right, that’s like this is the deep confusion over hitler Hitler saved germany he saved Lives And then it’s like well, why do people follow hitler? Well because he saved germany it’s not like you know he was You know talking about concentration camps and genocide that that’s not what happened And so you don’t understand hitler did lots of good things Until he turned bad and did lots of bad things And the people at the bottom couldn’t measure that You know or couldn’t measure it, you know They’re not capable. They don’t they they’re not they’re not capable of exercising judgment. They can’t it’s not Or they might be capable, but they have other things to do and you you know, look You don’t have time to exercise judgment on on danny’s coding when you’re busy with a family raising kids You know Even if you could do it like even if you could No, you’ve got priorities You can’t do all things all the time and you can’t measure the goodness or badness of every individual’s behavior at all times You can’t do that Let me let me jump ahead real quick um then then it turns out That this doing one’s own work provided that it comes to be in a certain way is justice Mm-hmm So that’s what we’re talking about the people at the bottom that it’s not They’re we’ll just say their expertise or their obligation isn’t in judging That is in the that is in the that that’s in the our what do we call our first class? Right, but you don’t embody wisdom. You don’t want to get caught up in the fact that you can do something leave Of course, we’re we’re we’re we’re Extreme extreme where we’re totalizing things here for the sake of argument But but but yeah I want to pick that apart too and say just because you can do a thing Doesn’t mean you have the authority or that you should do things Yes, because there are priorities and so the fact that you can judge good and bad say in every person Even if that were a possible thing that you could do doesn’t mean that that you’re obligated to and it doesn’t mean you’re authorized to And it doesn’t mean that you should do it and that’s where people get confused in recent times They keep saying no, no, you’re capable of this and therefore you’re responsible for doing it and it’s like no I’m not responsible for doing everything i’m capable of That’s not possible. You can’t do everything you’re capable of that doesn’t make any sense time is a constraint energy is a constraint Focus is a constraint right your attention. These are all constraints and you’re constantly trading off and and making prioritization And one of the nice things about the city is that it or the polis in this case It’s giving you the prioritization based on class. That’s what they’re doing They’re saying yeah, you’re at the bottom. You just follow man. You’re not supposed to be judging good and evil in the king Fair enough Yeah, exactly. That’s you know, again, that’s what I really appreciated about the game of thrones It’s like you have two guys that are fully embodying their virtue that they’re obligated to Regardless of what what their their master is about if their master above is good or bad That was actually really that was really neat to see That’s important because it just really throws people off And which we live where everything’s flat and everybody embodies all every virtue 100% you know, no no No separation Yeah, I think that’s a good insight. Yeah, go ahead I was just gonna say Is there anything else here on courage No, I didn’t have anything on courage I was gonna move into temperance but I just just want to it sounds elementary like a basic observation that like Capability should not be equated with responsibility just because you can do something you shouldn’t that sounds very trivial But it’s something that like in our culture when you think of like self-help It’s like American self-help is like the opposite of that It’s like, you know, you got a 100 gas pedal gas pedal that you can really hurt yourself I mean i’ve i’ve done this so physically I physically hurt my back in the gym once I was dead lifting like I don’t know 650 pounds or something really heavy. I was like, uh, you know, I was like I was listening to this motivational speaker I recall as I got injured listening to this like only those yeah, this was the lyrics of whatever only those who can uh, Basically like who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go and then snap right? That’s how you hurt, you know, and you could do that. That’s literally now it was physical, right? But metaphorically you can mess yourself up if you yeah, you go 100 your mind will mess you up, you know yeah, the self-help culture and We’ll say the united states, I guess has the potential to be incredibly damaging to not only the person but the people around them because it doesn’t take into account any It doesn’t take into account any of these things that we’re talking about virtue or higher goods or It’s just like pick one thing and One thing well, they don’t tell you how to pick the thing that you’re you’re going to work towards Or if that thing is good or not for aptitude like they don’t They’re saying you can do something without knowing you can you do them? I don’t know probably not most people can’t do most things so The assumption that like oh, you know what you can do. You can just resolve your own trauma That’s almost certainly false like on its face But like ken ken are the skills that you’re referencing in your stupid self-help book available You know like maybe they’re not like that’s what I like about pragmatic People like peterson, right? He’s just giving you these pragmatic things that anybody can do Uh, right that are that don’t require specialized skills or specialized understanding or and the whole trick to those self-help books If there is a trick and you know, there’s certainly a trick and some of them is that They give you the framing and then tell you you can implement it So they’re kind of handling you the whole thing and telling you that you’re doing it. It’s like no The book is giving you all this stuff You’re not doing that. The book is is providing you the ability To try it but but that doesn’t mean that you have all the other skills required to implement correctly Right So Yeah, you can tell me all about how I can deadlift 600 pounds, but I can’t do 600 pounds like it’s The the physicality of it isn’t going to work out right but the technicality can And that they’re giving you the technicality the tech name without the without knowing you And maybe that tech name is not something you can use and it’s going Which is the opening of the book right is forbidden knowledge is real and it’s important Doing something that you cannot do You will damage yourself If you have knowledge that yeah, you have to break the boundaries if you can break your back and be permanently disabled Are you sure that’s the right tactic? Like what would you have to know those boundaries can’t you just assume they’re there and stay as far away as possible Because that’s a better tactic for some things not all things but some things Yeah So yes important to acknowledge trade-offs of your choices Uh, no, I got nothing else on courage. Um anybody else anything i’m just gonna move to temperance Wisdom which is judgment Um Regarding good things and good relations so the the higher that that per The king or whatever courage is preservation and the the dying is a great analogy there or a great symbol for us to appreciate that picking the Making sure that it’s died properly to where it’s going to resist all of these other things these other soda powder pleasure appetites Now moving on to moderation Which seems to be the one that socrates is the most uncomfortable with um, and we can Talk, they’re just having a very hard time talking about it. And I think I have an idea why because as you get Further and further away from the from the triangle down towards the bottom things become Like we were just saying earlier. Um, it’s very difficult to you can’t The context and we’re getting further and further away from the point things at the point are very easy to see and articulate and Explicate but the further away you get from that the more the more implicit it becomes so something like moderation is difficult to talk about because it’s It’s not is It’s not it’s a peripheral thing In fact, he even says that um temperance is Is kind of a it kind of exists everywhere Um, it I don’t know. Um, it what does he say here? Exists Unlike courage and wisdom each wise each of which resides in one part making the city brave and wise respectively Moderation spreads throughout the whole and makes the weakest the strongest and those in between Whether in regard to reason physical strength numbers wealth or anything else all sing the same song together and this unanimity This agreement between the naturally worse and the naturally better is to which of Of the two is to rule both in the city and each one is rightly called moderation So is this what you were talking about mark where? um uh well Just because you can see something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s appropriate for you to be taking on that role right Or even just because you know something Right. So so Early in my career, I worked for a company did some groundbreaking so it wasn’t ai but it didn’t need to be it was better than ai Actually, it was it was very math based Um And what happened was they they had They had made a mistake in their sequel query And I was never still i’m not the best database guy in the world never was but I knew what they had done It’s like oh, I know I know exactly what you’re doing. You’re just getting effectively you’re scanning the tables in the wrong order, right? I’m not their top database guy their top database guy Yeah, it was a decent decent database person and he didn’t He didn’t see it as a problem right When I tried to like bring it up as an issue It wasn’t my place and yeah, that did not go well. I made a lot of enemies um And and that’s the problem is that sometimes you have to live with a problem Because you’re not that even though you’re right about it. You’re not the expert. You’re not the authority And all you can do is stir up trouble and piss people off Rather than just deal with the thing that is not You know wasn’t that big a deal at the end of the day I mean it eventually might have gotten fixed had I not like pushed the issue and then I you know Probably have stayed there longer. I was a contractor but um Yeah, I mean that’s that’s the problem is that when you bring stuff out Even if you’re right that’s Being right doesn’t it’s it’s not it doesn’t say and often those consequences are more than you can bear and so The consequence of putting up with the thing that you know is wrong less than the consequence of making enemies because often it is That kind of reminds me of an error interaction. I had with my boss yesterday at work if it if it seems fitting I’ll bring it up. Um another thing here um I don’t know just what they mean by them, but they are so to speak like tracks Okay, moderation is surely a kind of order The mastery of a certain of certain kinds of pleasures and desires people indicate as much when they use the phrase self self-control and other similar phrases I don’t know just what they mean By them, but they are so to speak like tracks or clues that moderation has left behind in language Isn’t that so i’ve actually really appreciated that because it’s like it’s not this but It’s they’re they’re saying when people say self-control it’s actually a high a hindsight A hindsight observation a post-hoc observation. I really like that. He said that here So it’s a it’s the same self that’s doing the controlling and being controlled. So it’s like that doesn’t make any sense Yeah, it’s a self-control, but it’s sort of a there’s something It’s like hinting at it Yeah, um Exactly. It’s a self. It’s a silly self reference If you had control of yourself, why would you need to exert self control like what? Like wait a minute. What’s more controlling? And how are you doing it if you didn’t already have control and yeah, it gets very circular But there’s literally what they say next or in the next paragraph is what you just said mark It’s like what isn’t self-control ridiculous the stronger self That does the does the controlling is the same as the weaker self that gets controlled so that only one person is referred to In all such expressions Yeah, that’s exactly what they just said Right, right and and and yeah, I I appreciate the point of that out too, right? But but at the same point there’s something about order itself That you’re conforming to And that that’s what they’re pointing to it’s not so much that the the idea of self control is predicated on An observation outside of yourself that makes the self that validates the control, right? Yes, yeah, it’s a very slippery thing Yeah, they say a better a better part and a worse part of oneself and I guess they’d sort of differentiate that later But like the scholastics like Aquinas would say that it’s like the will’s mastery over the instincts or something like that To which they do they’d separate the tripod part a part, you know the head the heart and the belly or whatever Like the head is the smallest part. So temperance is like All three parts in harmony Yeah mark you’re just reciting the book here you got an incredible Ability to retain things The expression is it nonetheless the expression is apparently trying to indicate that in the soul of the very person There is a better part and a worse part and one that whenever the naturally better part is in control of the worst This is expressed by saying that the person is in self-controlled is self-controlled or master of himself At any rate one praises someone by calling them self-controlled But when on the other hand the smaller and better part is overpowered by the larger part Because of a bad upbringing or bad company. This is called being self Defeated or licentiousness and it’s reproached. So like in control in regards to um the proper proper appropriation or proper ordination to to um Proper hierarchy, I guess well Yeah, I think so Here that’s the order Yeah part of order is hierarchy like you can’t do ordering without hierarchy because you have to And see yeah ordination proper ordination something is better and something is worse always Everything in its order Yeah, they’re really What does he say? Is there any is there a way we could find justice? So as not to have to bother with moderation any further. That’s how that that’s at the very beginning right after they finished courage Can we not talk about it? Because it’s like he’s saying Yeah, yeah because it doesn’t have a reference moderation, how are you measuring moderate terms? That’s that that’s why they don’t want to deal with it And it’s still very much the mission of philosophy to sort of To some extent differentiate and throw off the yoke of any particular polytheistic belief Not religion as such just the fact that we’re dealing with all these crazy religions and what do we do? All right I i’ve got to take a break. Um I’ll come back if I can like my my contractors here. So Okay, thank you, sir. Yeah Good to see you back Hope to see that Yeah, well ethan brought up I thought that was interesting I thought that was interesting. Um He like his triangle analogy the idea that temperance is this thing on the periphery that’s and therefore it’s kind of more difficult to talk about I thought that was an interesting kind of way of putting it the way the text said The language of the text that temperance is has more the nature of harmony and symphony, right? And then it’s yes the ordering or the controlling of pleasures and desires We touched on both of those two things or in other words You have these competing principles and when the better is under control we call that self mastery of self Otherwise, it’s called an unprincipled we touch on all those things um They accept that concept up to the state and they say therefore the state must justly be called master of itself If the words temperate and self mastery truly express the rule of the better part over the worse so basically just taking the same frame and thinking about how can I apply this to a state and it’s um Um and and and one thing I think is interesting I guess maybe the reason it’s hard to talk about is because if it is temperance is this is on the whole You have to talk about it in terms of superiority and inferiority of things and you kind of I guess I guess you just start at the daemon. You must have to just start at the daemon or something like that Um in order to discuss such things but the link that I just noticed Um was that um, man, what was the last thing you said self-control? Oh, I’m sorry, man Oh basically, oh soccer jesus finding it hard to talk about After the after they talk about the virtues and they they put the first definition of justice on the table They talk about like the the co-relativity of terms like thirst And how there’s lots of words bigger smaller like there’s lots of words that are co co-relative or you know Relative like you define the word by looking at the correlates, you know, like what does it correlate with who? um, so Um, so I think maybe they’re putting the temperate temperatures like maybe the first time we’re seeing this tool Um on the table or at least it’s explicit to me Um, what do you guys think about that? Like that they’re introducing the concept of relativity For the first time or they’re sort of pointing to an element of relativity for the first time Is that significant at all? Is that the first time I don’t I don’t know if that’s the first time it might be I don’t know if it’s significant I mean, I I don’t know Because they go on to talk about desire contrast, right? They’re using relativity throughout with the contrast So I don’t think it’s the first time it might be the first time they’re pointing to a specific type of relativity What’s the what’s the what where are you in the text? Jenny? I’m all over the place I need to I need to get a pdf that actually has markers on it. Um So i’m also I didn’t really get to the last 25 super deeply Yeah, the pdf the pdf that you pointed to has the markers by i’m in a bunch. I I Long story short the pdf that i’m using right now doesn’t have the markers. I need to get one that does but um How is that part you should have at the top of the page in brackets? No, not in this pdf So anyway, we can at the at the end of temperance. What happens after that? Does somebody else maybe want to what happens after? After they finish they stop talking about temperance. Maybe better to get somebody else’s take on this After temperance is their uh, their analogy of like hunters Like surrounding the prey it’s like we’ve we’ve got our three virtues here and then justice is somewhere in the weeds around them Right, right. They say if we solve these three the missing component is justice, right? Mm-hmm And then play uh, socrates kind of makes his like imperfect definition of justice being each one doing their own Yeah, the language is sorry. Sorry good Yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say the language is kind of funny. They’re like, all right, we set the stage We’re ready to go find justice now pay attention if you see it like You know if you see it, let us know. All right, it’s just it’s just kind of funny Like we’re like they’re going on a safari and you know, there it is. There’s justice. It’s it just jumped out um, but ultimately They I think they define justice as In my mind, I don’t have any notes on this but basically like doing doing what you ought to be doing Like doing your role or something like that. I don’t know if that’s a that’s very sloppy I don’t know if that’s exactly what they said maybe maybe it’s submitting to the polis Or the something like I don’t know what do you guys think what did they propose that justice was it’s like uh We stated often repeated that everyone must practice one of the occupations in this in the city for which he is naturally best suited Like when socrates was talking about how he’d been talking about it the whole time Right. It’s doing one’s own work is justice. That’s right It’s like what are you what are you talking about? I think it’s talking to glaucon in this right? Yeah Yeah Glaucon says he’s not certain what he’s talking about Yeah, I recall that being a key point that they made and then I also recalled them saying our method was wrong And I recalled him mentioning. Hey, remember when we said everybody should only do one thing Was it was maybe there was was maybe there was a problem with that. They brought that up They said hey remember how when we started talking we said everybody should do one thing Um I think I think they might have made a point off of that observation somehow, but I don’t recall this is a problem when we lose ethan and my My preparation was uh didn’t go to the end uh, and they they And then from what I recall from from listening just from memory they they they introduced like the concept of desire I don’t exactly have notes on that and then they introduced like the the theme of rational principles And right alongside their definition of justice, so I guess question one is What is what did the text define justice as how did they propose that? um If their methodology was broken why and how and then what did they say on desire and what did they say about? Rationality those are kind of the four things that I recall out of the text, although My preparation is weak here. So I don’t really have much commentary on it But those are the themes that I recall being present What do you guys think Yeah, I mean, I mean they talk about desire in terms of food and thirst, right? Or thirst right for drink alone and hungering will be a desire for food Right, and then they kind of agree on that, right? and And then they and then they equate that with goodness, right? Alleging no one desires a drink but good drink Nor food, but good food, right? Which I would say is carrying things too far because You know, they’re using desire from a from a certain standpoint But you’re right. They make a relativistic claim based on that right crater and lesser And they make some commentary on the nature of desire is that it’s composed of this attraction and repulsion thing desire and aversion it’s it’s desire I mean I have well I would you not allow that ascent and descent desire and aversion attraction and repulsion are all of them opposites Whether they are regarded as active or passive for that makes no difference in the fact of for of their opposition Yes, he said they are opposites. Well, I mean, I guess that that’s kind of what i’m getting at. Is that like And this is on the tail end of the temperance thing. I think because I think what they’re getting at is that Yeah, I see that section. Okay, that’s that’s 437b. That’s kind of before they mentioned like Oh, you know how you can have the desire for thirst? Well, you can qualify that and we can but we have to stop the qualification Other what you know, like we don’t want to be computationally explosive about this Uh, right. That’s the they’re right. That’s where they get into relativism relativism causes combinatorial explosion That’s what relativism combinatorial explosion in which you can’t in a relativist framework, but But yeah, and that was right after saying, you know the city, right? And so he says you can’t mix classes in the city, but also relativism. It’s like, whoa, wait a minute How are you going to resolve that now? Because you I don’t recreated that that problem So it’s a part of the image of temperance is like well, what if you’re 30? Is could there be such a circumstance where you’re thirsty but yet unwilling to drink right? um This is kind of where my reading actually left off unfortunately, but they’re connecting some themes in some way that i’m not quite sure Yeah, they talk about striving and impelled towards right And then they’re saying drawing back from thirst when you’re from something to drink when you’re hungry is you know It’s an opposition of action, right? So therefore it can’t be the same thing Right. So again, they’re denying that paradox. They’re saying now it can’t be the same thing And they do get into this theme about the war between the heart and the head Uh, and they they say and and are there not many other cases in which we observe that a man’s desires violently prevail over his reason He reviles himself and is angry at the violence within him within him and that in the struggle Which is like the struggle of the factions in a state the spirit is on his side Is on the side of his reason but for the passioners I could go on but Right, but he separates he uses that argument that argument about thirst and not being willing to drink To separate out things and say So we won’t be irrational, right? If we claim the two are different for another naming the part of the soul which calculates the calculating the other part which hungers Thirst is agitated by the other desires the irrational so he’s saying there’s two parts There’s the rational and the irrational part, right? And so that’s his point. His point is The fact that you’re thirsty doesn’t lead automatically to drinking Mm-hmm Because there’s a rational and any irrational part of your soul and they are not always in alignment So I think what they’re doing is they’re trying to point to some kind of concept of like nobility of spirit and they’re crying I’m trying to say like hey, maybe that’s what justice is justice is like You’ve got to balance the three things. Um, and I think that’s what they’re essentially trying to do Yeah One who is just does not allow any part of himself to do the work of another part Or allow the various classes within him to meddle with each other And now they’re really like pulling apart their analogy of the city to like apply it to the individual where it’s justices Each of these individual parts Doing what they’re supposed to be doing while still working together as one Yeah, there was a guy who topped on I think it was uh, I watched a recap of mark You were on the live stream of uh, father eric’s live stream. Somebody talked about how like and you said hey You know what? We need to stop giving single Answers to questions because this guy said hey, you know, like I don’t know of uh, I haven’t studied all the different type of causes But you know like like I guess apparently all we talk like what we ever talk about is efficient cause But then you’ve got like final cause you’ve got like lots of different ways to explain causality of something right in the same way A combination of formal and efficient cause together. Yeah and the four causes right as efficient material formal and uh, finite Yeah Kind of brain brain’s like ha i’m gonna trip you right now. It’s like you son of a bitch brain My desire to whip them all out in order correctly, but uh, The irrational part of the uh got the better of me there. Yeah, I I mean that’s that’s that’s important, right? Like make final cause great again is my little joke for that um Which father eric is a big fan of? But yeah, I mean because once you put in multiple causes Everything changes and that’s sort of what they’re teasing apart here is a lot of the this is just re-enchantment It’s you may think that you can boil the world down to a desire for thirst But actually your desire to thirst doesn’t necessarily lead to you drinking and therefore you can’t simplify it down to that So that’s what this is really all about. So you can’t simplify justice to this Moderation to this you can’t right they’re saying no, no, the world’s really complex and let me show you how Things I’ve been really enjoying about the book is it does tease apart these things and say you think it’s socratic Right, you think you know this because you use that word in a very apropos way But in fact if I ask you to break that down Inside of a context where it matters, you can’t do it Because you just you don’t know what you’re talking And that’s the whole socratic trick in some sense is this skeptical cynicism that you know, it’s early post-modernism So I think Yeah, that’s an interesting observation. I don’t have a direct response to that, but I I believe I could be wrong But because i’m not prepared But I think they said hey our our tripartite of wisdom courage and temperance broke down somehow And I believe they moved on to a rational versus non-rational say, oh, well, maybe maybe I get it But my memory could be wrong, but they do get into this theme of i’ll just read this part a further question arises Is passion different from reason also or only a kind of reason in which the latter case instead of three Principles in the soul there will only be two the rational and the concupiscent or rather as the state was composed of three classes traders auxiliaries and counselors So may there not be in the individual soul a third element which is passion or spirit And when not corrupted by bad education is the natural auxiliary of reason so there’s There’s a paragraph I don’t know. Maybe we’ve kind of covered this theme sufficiently If you guys have any reactions to that they kind of move in that direction Yeah, they definitely make the move. I’m not sure where they Where you know where they say this is justice and oh that didn’t work But this second half of book four was hard for me to follow actually Yeah, there’s a lot going on Yeah, it’s too bad that I wasn’t able to speed read through it Again you shouldn’t be speed reading through this well The time I had allocated for preparation was uh Insufficient Well, the time it wasn’t the time was insufficient. It was I did other things I talked to people instead of doing the planning for Hanging on discord in the morning and uh, you know People joined early I saw you this morning and I said nope got us keep gotta read Yeah, and then I came in see man. Well, and I we hang out on discord and we read in silence and I like that You know, but it’s a couple people came by Um, yeah, I know I would have been like hey danny what’s going on an intro? Okay. This is exactly what happened So what’s up? How’s it going? All right, so let’s see, um, oh no, they do say there’s a phantom of justice Are you still looking for justice to be something different from this power which produces such men in cities? All right So I see what you’re saying So that’s 422 423 That I mean 442 and 443 Yeah, and they’re basically making an argument about what the just man will and will not do And they tried to reduce justice to moderation I see. Yeah, so they yeah, they say Justice as we were describing Being concerned however, not with the outward man, but with the inward which is the true self of of of concernment of man For the just man does not permit the several elements within him to interfere with one another Or any of them to do the work of the others he sets in order his own his own inner life And and in his own master and his own law and at peace with himself And when he has bound together the three principles within him Which he has compared to the higher lower and middle notes of a scale and the intermediate intervals When he has bound all all these together and is no longer many but has become one entirely temperate and perfectly adjusted nature Then he proceeds to act if he has to act whether this is all one sentence by the way Whether in a manner of property or in the treatment of the body Or in some affair of politics or private business always thinking and calling that which preserves and cooperates With this harmonious condition just in good action and the knowledge which this is still the same sentence gosh And the knowledge which presides over it wisdom and that which at any time impairs this condition He will call unjust action and the opinion which presides over it ignorance Wow, that’s the longest sentence. I’ve read a long time Yeah, it’s broken up into several sentences in mine really Yeah, interesting Where is that casey? That would be four forty three D. Oh, okay. That’s where I was looking. Okay. Yeah, he’s doing this run on sentence of mine. I was not mine Yeah, it’s a whole big It’s a whole big paragraph in mine. Yeah, it’s a whole paragraph. Well, I’ve got i’ve got d D D and e are the big paragraph. Yeah d and e is one big paragraph Then right after that, it’s 444 So yeah, it’s not I wouldn’t say he they conflate justice to moderation Because they call moderation like the um, it’s the relation of all the three parts to themselves but justice is like each part doing its own Correct thing in all circumstances Yeah, so Moderation surely is nothing other than this in the city or in private man Right. Now, of course a man will be just because of that which we are often saying and in the same way Right, and then he goes and blows that argument out. Yeah, there’s a link for action Just actions cause justice and unjust actions cause injustice. So they did establish the link to behavior And I think then they’re saying it has to serve something and the way that like And the creation of health is the is the institution of a natural order in government Right. So like if i’m a doctor, i’m i’m like subservient to some form of sort of order etc. If i’m a lawyer yada yada so there’s an element of Maybe that’s the logos I don’t know. Is it is a submission to a logos? So maybe like justice maybe needs to be submitted to a logos And then it needs to be embodied like you’re going to die for it or something like that And then it needs to be balanced like like the three notes of a scale like the low middle and high part of a scale or something Like that Right. Yeah, they talk about that They talk about the high the high middle and the low i’m not sure that the concept of logos actually comes up in plato I’m not sure that that comes up into like the stoics of the neo in the neo-platinus, right? No, it doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t come up except in order which they did mention And and yeah, the sophisticated we’ll say christian concept of logos is certainly not in these texts but The idea that the combinations they’re talking about are the logos is certainly in these texts. I think that’s a fair interpretation My my text uses the words natural order a lot it also uses interesting like lots of math words like variants covariance correlative And you know like they were they were pythagorean, right? So they they they were they knew geometry Which is interesting a lot of greek philosophy specifically relates directly to math deliberately like it’s explicit and and and look, you know, he says things like By zeus like there’s a lot of like invocation of Of the one highest god in the pantheon, right? It’s like which is very interesting And and that’s like least of all by zeus must we shrink back, right? Like what? That’s your appeal. That’s your state. That’s where you’re standing. That’s your axiom. You’re doing it on the authority of zeus So they do kind of in my mind call back to some of the techniques I use in like chapter two, I think when they talking about the comparative advantage like, you know, like It has the same feel of like chapter two when they say And do do not good practices lead to virtue and evil practices device assuredly still our old question of the comparative advantages of justice and injustice Has not been answered which is more profitable to be just and act justly and practice virtue, right? This goes back to the three goods we established earlier in the book, right? Where they’re saying hey remember we established these like relative like things. Well now we have a little bit more tools in our tool bag To think about with we can now think in tripartites That’s something that we weren’t doing earlier, right? We have the ability to think about scale, right? So we’re learning uh new ways of thinking and and seeing um to sort of advance this thought then right after it’s like His analogy of in injustice being like a civil war between the parts The rebellion The rebellious part not that it’s like the part that’s suited to being a slave not wanting to be a slave and rebelling against the other parts Is what he brings up right? Do you have that section pulled up? Yeah, that’s the whole section about rebellion. Yeah, which is fascinating Is that the one must not injustice be a strife? Go ahead now. I suppose we must look for injustice your your translation is probably different Uh surely it must be a kind of civil war between the three parts A meddling and doing of another’s work a rebellion by some part against the whole soul in order to rule it inappropriately Yeah, let me say right after we were reading that’s 44b right and him saying right before that justice is each part doing Its proper role, right? But injustice would To rule all the other parts Do you want to read that section I think this section is kind of key and a good one do you want to read the whole thing? Rebellion by some part against the whole soul in order to rule it inappropriately The rebellious part is by nature suited to being a slave while the other part is not a slave but belongs to the ruling class We’ll say something like that I suppose and that the turmoil and straying of these parts are injustice licentiousness cowardice ignorance in another word of the whole of vice And then like justice and injustice are related to uh, healthy and unhealthy things for the body Like justice would be the healthy things for the body and injustice are the unhealthy things Right, but he’s also asserting that things that can keep order Are right to rule and things that are rebellious or can’t keep order should never rule What I think is interesting is that they define It as a strife among the three principles, right? Like I mean, it’s explicit my my translation translates to must not injustice be a strife which which arises among the three principles um Oh never mind. I’m sorry. I I was thinking justice. I I was I was I I in my mind They were saying that like it’s kind of like struggling with god Like if you’re thinking about it, seriously, maybe you’re always in that state is what I thought they were saying, but that’s not what they’re saying Then you know, it’s not a he who struggles against god kind of a thing No, it’s just the point that we can’t do this because we’re flawed Right. That’s how the chapter ends, right? That’s on like the last page. It’s like Yeah We can’t we can’t live this way because every man’s confused and corrupted right and so Nothing will enable them to acquire the virtue And then socrates says yeah, it’s ridiculous, but we’ve come from the place. We were able to see most clearly that these things are so We mustn’t worry Well, and then but so you too can see just how many forms vice in my opinion have Those at least are worth looking at in other words. Oh look We found another bit of important detail in understanding this there’s more re-enchantment. It’s more inflation of simple concepts Is that a is that a sufficient definition for enchantment? On inflation of a concept or is that just a component of enchantment enchantment? Is enchantment is enchantment always inflation. That’s all okay. Okay, that’s not just a component of it That’s kind of at its core. Its core is inflation. Okay, you thought this meant this but really it can mean like This okay enchantment is the reciprocal opening that john talks about that’s enchantment. Okay, that’s all it is. It’s just Yeah, it’s a fancy word for enchantment or a fancy phrase for enchantment and enchantment is supposed to encompass dimensionality Right. In other words, it’s not it’s not You know My desk plus my desk and the microphone. It’s my desk plus the possibility of everything that could be on my desk That’s enchantment. In other words, it’s not a linear direct one-to-one relationship. You’re not it’s not merely additive It’s commentary explosive. It’s like oh, yeah, you can experience all of this stuff It’s a new dimension it’s an added dimensional variable not just an added value Yeah, they kind of it’s interesting how they talk about the concept of discrete versus nondiscrete like in terms of the relativity argument when they when they mention up the Relations they they say, you know, like this is relative and what I and I and I mean that they’re not it’s not disparate Right, which is interesting, right? Like yeah, we don’t we don’t we’re not very good at doing that these days Or i’m not it’s kind of difficult to think that way we’re not because we don’t we you know, everybody appeals to capital t truth But if anybody makes a capital t truth claim they get upset It’s right. And so well, then you only have the relative now like, you know, you’re claiming you’re claiming you value the non-relative But if somebody brings up something non-relative you complain and you’re not complaining on grounds You’re not saying no no that capital t truth is wrong because this capital t truth conflicts with it and it’s right Which is the proper way to argue argue. They’re just saying no, no, that one’s not right either but but now you’re denying that any are right without you know, they’re not doing that explicitly, but that’s the Implication and so they’re trapped in the relativism and claiming no, no, we’re not relativists. We we have capital t truth And it’s like, okay. Well, where is it? And and that’s where it all breaks down you ask the easy question as I said on my livestream last night about to think You have the easy question fine. Where is that boundary and they don’t have an answer. It’s like well, then you don’t believe in boundaries You believe in the theoretical existence of boundaries, but when I ask you to draw one you can’t so you don’t believe in it Okay, you can participate in it and that’s where and that’s how the chapter ends right is is Wow, you know there must be as many types of assault as our regimes possess possessing distinct forms Five five regimes and five of the soul And and he claims he’s described one, but it could be named in two ways Right if one exceptional man arose among the rulers it would be called the kingship is more an aristocracy right, it’s a very interesting interesting setup and and You know, there’s an agreement on that point right So And then it talks about it’s many who arise none of the city’s laws were worth mentioning would be changed if he uses the rearing education we described right in other words and and this rearing education let’s Initial conditions determine outcome Which is obviously false but That’s one of the axiomatic Is that yeah education solves these problems? And then and then they go back and forth right because they’re weeding out the guardians, too And the same thing is gonna gonna happen later, too, right? Is they gonna be like well, you know this philosopher king thing Doesn’t really work because maybe you can weed them out. But also You can’t you can’t do that the next time around like it’s not a self-perpetuation System it’s a one-off you got lucky Well, is anybody else do we want to conclude here or does anybody have anything else? That’s literally I read the end of the last page. So I think we’re I think we’re good I think we can close out book four. All right, you think we sufficiently teased apart justice? Uh, no, I mean I think maybe next week that there will be potential to come and at least he thinks he’s trying to Trying to say about justice in this book. I definitely think we should close out book four I definitely think there’s more details that since I think I don’t think we were As prepared as we could have been But I think you know, I think I think any detail that we miss will come out next week That’s relevant like or at least most of it, but we’ll see. Yeah. Well, I mean they didn’t try to resolve justice They said it doesn’t work I think that’s the book doesn’t work The end of the day um But yeah, I mean for me it really clarified all the all the second half that I really kind of struggled through so that was So there’s there’s a lot of sorry to cut you off mark There’s lots of connection that’s pointing back to the nature of relativity to chapter two They talk about they bring up wealth and power when they get into the heart and head thing Like they’re bringing up things that were brought up before but now in a different way, right? So I think that I think that there could be some details and saying hey, you know how we talked about this back then Here’s this again and here’s how they’re exploring it in a little bit of a different manner but i’m jannie you need to you need to go to uh, lantern jacks Or engine grease declassified.com or whatever And go through jack’s treatment of the republic. Okay, because he talks about how it’s an onion Right and it and it peels into the middle and then back out so the outer chapters are similar one another Right, yeah, yeah, I definitely see it for sure I know you mentioned this jack guy a lot. Um, i’ll have to I don’t know who he is. Is it lantern jack? I’ll check them out lantern jack. Yeah. Yeah ancient grease declassified. It’s the name of this podcast and his website. I think too Yeah, jack is brilliant. And uh, yeah jack and I get along pretty well So yeah, he did a talk with verveky on ai and plato’s cave. It’s a very good talk So they were talking about you know, is is plato’s cave still relevant in the age of ai and jack says oh, yeah Of course it is right. And uh, yeah, he’s really really good with this stuff Man, so mohawk at him Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, the standard protocol is just talk about what you got out which I think we did I mean casey did been saying thing uh, but We did. Um Yeah, and then you just you just do the reflection, right? Okay, so we’ll talk about I I guess I I I would like to personally still Like I don’t think I I I explored got what I wanted. I wanted to kind of get into their concept of self-control Or kind of like motivation. I guess that’s more of an exaptation of how I apply a lot of this stuff um Because just because I think I should take my life in a certain direction doesn’t mean i’m gonna get out of bed and actually You know clean my room. Let’s say you know, so You know, perhaps that’s an exaptation that’s gonna maybe take more time. But um Yeah, I mean there’s a lot of interleaving themes threat threads that I see but I you know I think i’m gonna have to do a little bit more work to get what I want out of it out of it So that’s kind of my take on the second half chapter four Need to work harder at it for me Yeah, yeah Anybody else anything final thoughts? Like I said, I just It was good to do this because I was struggling with it and now I got a lot more Appreciation for what it was they were up to and Yeah, I wish we’d had ethan for longer, but that’s okay. We’ll get him back next week and See see what he’s got. What do you what do you got for us? Casey? I think coming through the idea of like proper relation of You can call them parts but like Even just like different people in let’s call it like an organization or a hierarchy like they’re a proper relation You have to be able to see that and when it’s being Out of consonance And his idea of justice so You can you can sort of pick apart things like something’s going wrong in a hierarchy or an organization just tell when someone’s being in just or Something to that effect I think it helped me to notice How you could pick that apart a little bit more? Mm-hmm and seeing those things to the firsthand stories like when mark said hey once upon a time there was this database issue But hey, maybe it wasn’t my authority to go fix it like hearing firsthand stories I find very valuable which is being participating in a group like this I actually because like that’s one of that that’s gonna stick with me actually even though it’s a really trivial thing And I already know this lesson in my head It’s just it needs to be reinforced especially you know when you do when you’re at work every day And you have to figure out is this my battle that I should be fighting You know, oh, I remember one time mark said once upon a time there was a database issue But maybe I can live with it, right? You know, it’s it’s useful to have a database issue You know, it’s it’s useful to have those firsthand experiences of hey, here’s Here’s how I a lot of things will get fixed without you mentioning them Is this so all you’re doing at that point is fighting over time? All right, but it’s good to know that i’m not the only one out there like maybe here’s an example of how I applied wisdom courage and temperance and yeah, maybe I made a mistake and then I learned from it It’s good to you know have that firsthand narrative of oh once upon a time You know, it helps it helps to bring it Into reality somehow in some way Yeah, sure. Yeah, you can relate to a story that that that somebody else participated in yeah So all right. Well, if there’s nothing else and let’s do take a moment of reflection and then we’ll be done Yeah All right, so we’ll pick up and check five next week Yeah, i’m looking forward to it. Thanks. Yeah, this is great